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So what exactly was the Golden/Black city then?


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#1
GGTeMpLaR

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Since the fade and the physical world were in the same plane from the start of existence.

 

What exactly is the nature of this Golden/Black city at the heart of the fade now? Did it exist before Solas separated the fade from the physical world with the Veil?

 

The entire andrastrian religion also pretty much collapses from this fact being made widely known, as the whole concept of this 'golden city as the throne of God being heaven' becomes moot. It didn't even exist as far as they say it does until Solas separated it from the physical world with the Veil.

 

So the 'Maker' had nothing to do with it. There is no 'Maker' or 'Golden city' it was just a way the fade manifested. It would be curious to know why this golden/black city is always supposed to be viewiable from no matter where you are in the fade though, and why the taint emanates from it. Perhaps that is where the Forgotten/Forbidden ones went or where the 'false eluvian gods' went?

 

If the taint did come from the fade, then what was it before the Veil was created?

 

How does the call of the taint differ from that of the titans-lyrium/old gods-darkspawn?



#2
AntiChri5

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Solas' outhouse.



#3
Obadiah

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Well, since Corypheus is a darkspawn, and appears to have become one by attempting to enter the Golden City, there is some connection there to the Chantry tale.

#4
Dai Grepher

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Whether Solas actually created the Veil is debatable. He probably only discovered it and figured out how to manipulate it.

The Chantry teaches that in the beginning there was only the Fade. Then after some time the Maker created the real world by drawing a necessary amount of energy from the Fade and creating the Real. He then made the Veil to separate the worlds. But, he also allowed for spirits and people to see the other side, so that spirits would learn from the people and people would be able to dream and have new ideas.

It's possible that the Maker created the Veil with gaps so that the Fade and the Real could actually come together in certain places. This may have been where the evanuris eventually settled, creating worlds for themselves within these gaps made from the Fade and the Real. Then after much time, Solas collapsed these gaps by drawing in the Veil surrounding them, thus cutting off the crossroads worlds of the evanuris and sealing them away in those worlds.

As for the Golden City, it was golden at some point, because human mages saw it to be so when they entered the Fade in their minds. But at some point, the old god dragons turned people away from worshiping the Maker. So he imprisoned those dragons beneath the earth.

What may have also happened is he may have imprisoned their conscious spirits in the Golden City so they could not escape and roam freely in the Fade. This would explain why they whispered to the Magisters Sidereal to enter the Golden City, and enticed them with the promise of godhood. When the Magisters opened the doors to the hall, they may have released the old god souls. Whether that's true or not, the Chantry says that when the Magisters walked in the Maker's throne room the Maker returned and cursed them back to the real world along with the sin they had brought to heaven.

As for the nature of the Golden City, I think it was created by the Maker, which makes it real but in the Fade. Real things in the Fade have more power because they are unchangeable through mere thought. This might be why the old gods needed the Magisters to open the doors to the throne room, to let their spirits out or perhaps in. The doors were physical, so only physical beings could affect them.

The taint is evil made manifest. When the Maker cursed the Magisters to reap the consequences of their own sins, it made their sins real. The City was blackened, and the Magisters were sent back to the real world with this real sin, the taint. The taint itself is both real and from the Fade, which makes it have magical properties. This taint was then spread by the Magisters, now Darkspawn.

The Calling is also referred to as the song, and it is similar to the songs emitted by lyrium or possibly the evanuris (Flemeth speaks of dancing to music). I discussed this in another thread, but basically I think a "song" is a mantra or directive. Those who hear the song have a natural inclination to act according to its tune. Some can resist the song, others cannot. Some songs more irresistible than others.
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#5
greenbrownblue

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Since the fade and the physical world were in the same plane from the start of existence.

 

What exactly is the nature of this Golden/Black city at the heart of the fade now? Did it exist before Solas separated the fade from the physical world with the Veil?

 

The entire andrastrian religion also pretty much collapses from this fact being made widely known, as the whole concept of this 'golden city as the throne of God being heaven' becomes moot. It didn't even exist as far as they say it does until Solas separated it from the physical world with the Veil.

 

So the 'Maker' had nothing to do with it. There is no 'Maker' or 'Golden city' it was just a way the fade manifested. It would be curious to know why this golden/black city is always supposed to be viewiable from no matter where you are in the fade though, and why the taint emanates from it. Perhaps that is where the Forgotten/Forbidden ones went or where the 'false eluvian gods' went?

 

If the taint did come from the fade, then what was it before the Veil was created?

 

How does the call of the taint differ from that of the titans-lyrium/old gods-darkspawn?

Do not claim that there is no Maker. Bioware made clear they would never reveal whether it exists or not.



#6
GGTeMpLaR

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Do not claim that there is no Maker. Bioware made clear they would never reveal whether it exists or not.

 

I'm merely stating that given what Solas has told us about Elven mythology in DA:I and Tresspasser, it seems the facts are incompatible with the existence of the 'Maker' of the Chantry.

 

I guess a workaround is that similar to how modern elves misunderstand ancient elven history, the modern chantry misunderstands what actually happened with Andraste.



#7
myahele

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Solas seemed rather excited to see the Black see so close if you brought him into the Fade.

 

I'd say that since Elves can make pocket dimensions using things from the real world and the Fade; I wonder if the Golden City is an Elvhen "Engineering Marvel?" That would be very difficult to recreate. 

 

Unless there's beings older than Elves (Titan and Dwarves are possibility, but that doesn't seem they'd do that) I'd say it's an Elvhen design.

 

It could very well be a "gateway" into the Void/ origin of Darkspawn Taint


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#8
Donquijote and 59 others

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Well, since Corypheus is a darkspawn, and appears to have become one by attempting to enter the Golden City, there is some connection there to the Chantry tale.

He is not a darkspawn he is a ghoul and GW can't percieve his precence



#9
Yaroub

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He is not a darkspawn

 

More like - he is the first darkspawn.



#10
Medhia_Nox

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The Black City "should" have been the metaphysical representation of the ethical center of mankind's thought (dwarft/elf/qunari-kind).

 

Hubris "should" have been what corrupted this metaphysical city of epistemological philosophy.

 

However... now, we get to travel around the Fade like any other place... so, who knows what it is.

 

My bet?  The Fade representation of the Titan Mythal murdered and harvested... and, if accounts are to be trusted... possibly unleashed the Darkspawn from.


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#11
Gervaise

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Do not take everything in the Chant at face value.   Just as with the Dalish legends, some aspects of it may be true, such as the Maker being the origin of Creation, but much may have been altered even from what Andraste actually said.   If you read the notes accompanying the bits of the Chant contained in World of Thedas 2, it is clear that it was originally an oral tradition and that many parts of it actually seem to bear strong resemblance to earlier folk tales both human and elven.  

 

The Golden City may have originated in the Fade or it could be a reflection in the Fade of a city in the real world.   If this was the case, because the city was originally golden, so long as no one actually went there, it would reflect their belief that it remained Golden.   The old gods were said to have spoken to the Magisters from the Fade, urging them on.   They were hardly likely to admit that what they were aiming for was really already black and corrupted.    Once the Magisters opened their portal to wherever the city was, they discovered the truth, released the corruption and became corrupted themselves.   The reflection of the city in the Fade would now match their experience of it.

 

There is a strong hint in Trespasser that the taint may not have been caused by the Magisters entering the Golden City but they merely released it.   There is an account of the elves discovering something in the Deep Roads and sealing it away lest it destroy the world.     The inside of the Titan in the Descent resembles a great city, not golden exactly but certainly bright and shining with lyrium, which as you know gives off a song.    Mythal was said to have conquered a Titan and the codex about this precedes the one about collapsing and sealing off the entrance to the Deep Roads.   If conquering the Titan was the war that Solas spoke of that started the Evanuris on the road to godhood, then it is possible the elves used the conquered Titan to create a magical city underground, using its blood (lyrium).    May be eventually the drain on it was too much and it died and this lead to the corruption that turned the city black.    The seals the elves created were sound enough until the Magisters sought to enter the city in the Fade.   This instead gave them a portal into the original city underground and once there they were able to open the seals. 

 

Alternatively the elves created a city, the Fade part of which was left in tact when Solas raised the Veil.  The city was originally constructed of pure lyrium, which made it glow and sing.   The elves believed the Golden City to be the seat of their gods, just as the humans believed it the home of theirs.    The portal to where Solas trapped the Evanuris may well be within the Golden City.   The huge blood sacrifice that it took to reach the city in the Fade corrupted the lyrium that it was made with and turned it black and the backlash corrupted the Magisters.   Obviously in this version they are responsible for creating the taint.

 

What I don't believe in is the Chantry version that has the Golden City being the seat of the Maker and the taint being his punishment of all mankind for the sin of just a small section of them.    The Maker may well exist as a first cause but I think much of the rest of the Chant is just fanciful.    There are just too many things in the world, elves, dwarves and titans, which according to the Chant the Maker did not create and yet pre-date any evidence of humans in the world.

 

One of the annoying things with Solas is that you can never ask about really important things like is the Maker real, was there ever a Golden City, why did it turn black?    As someone who claims to know so much from history, and has a particular knowledge of the Fade, that would have been really helpful.   I'm pretty certain the thing he wouldn't tell you when you asked, which is the question why does the current world have to die, was likely because now red lyrium is also on the surface we are all doomed.     The only way to rectify this is to wipe the slate clean and begin again.

 

In World of Thedas 1 we are told that lyrium is simply a mineral but now we are told it is the blood of Titans and organic.   WoT1 also said the Chantry believe lyrium is the essence of all creation and some even call its song the voice of the Maker.    Well that either makes the Titans closely related to the Maker or that part is wrong.   However, the fact that red lyrium can grow from practically anything, even small organic creatures in the earth, means that nothing is safe from its spread.     It is interesting that no one seems to have realised that sinking the Tevinter ship leaving the Storm Coast with red lyrium means the stuff is now also at the bottom of the sea and infecting marine life.    

 

So stopping Solas and preventing the spread of red lyrium are likely to go together.


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#12
Blood Mage Reaver

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It could actually have been Arlathan but when the Veil was made the city was isolated from the rest of the Elven Empire thus creating the legend that it was sunk below the earth never to be found again.



#13
ArcaneEsper

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I'm pretty sure the Black City will end up being the Fade parts of Arlathan, because it seems like the simplest way for Bioware to answer the question of what it is while still staying interesting/enigmatic (depending on how they want to go about it) 

 

Also sorta unrelated but when you meet Flemeth and Kieran in the Fade, is the Black City at all visible anywhere? I came across this theory a little while back that suggests the part of the Fade that scene takes place in is the Black City and I'm wondering if it holds any weight.



#14
Addictress

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Unrelated but
I Guess the 18th-19th century American South is like the Tevinter Imperium

#15
Gervaise

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Not really apart from the fact they had slaves.   The Tevinter Imperium is based off ancient Rome.   The whole class system, Senate, treatment of slaves, liberati, and the fact that many of their words sound as if taken from Latin, tie in with the idea of it being ancient Rome.   You even have the fact that it was an empire that once ruled the whole known world but this power has gradually been eroded away through the endemic corruption in the ruling class and of course the Emperor/Archon who embraces a new religion of the one god and makes it the official state religion at the expense of the old religion of many gods.


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#16
Knight of Dane

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Also the whole black divine comparison with the Catholic Pope vs. the Orthodox Patriarch.



#17
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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What it was before I don't think we can know until we're told. I would guess that it's what's left of the capital of the elvhen empire, sent into the Fade as the Fade formed, but I am entirely prepared to be proven wrong. However, my guess as to what is now the same as Grepher and Gervaise's: it's where Solas sealed the Evanuris.

 

Think about it: we know the Evanuris are trapped in The Fade. The problem is that since human, elven, and probably qunari souls go there every night that wouldn't be anything like incapacitating enough to fully protect the world from them. All they do is talk an elven supporter into creating a Breach and they're back, possibly before the elvhen empire has a chance to collapse the way it did in canon. But putting them in The Black City, which has to the best of our knowledge only been breached once and which the early Codex said is "equidistant from all other points in The Fade," would do the trick.

 

This would also explain why Solas is willing to undo his creation (or strengthening, depending on your interpretation) of The Veil. It would be a bad idea if the Evanuris were merely trapped by being sealed in the Fade, but if they were sealed in an unreachable portion of it the prison wouldn't be much weaker due to The Fade becoming accessible again. This is another thing we don't yet know, but it seems like the safest bet.



#18
Reznore57

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I'm pretty sure the Black City will end up being the Fade parts of Arlathan, because it seems like the simplest way for Bioware to answer the question of what it is while still staying interesting/enigmatic (depending on how they want to go about it) 

 

Also sorta unrelated but when you meet Flemeth and Kieran in the Fade, is the Black City at all visible anywhere? I came across this theory a little while back that suggests the part of the Fade that scene takes place in is the Black City and I'm wondering if it holds any weight.

 

It's the same map used in Here Lies the Abyss so yeah the Black City is supposed to be somewhere...

Thing is I really think they should have made the Black City a bit more visible and different from the rest of fade , it's really hard to tell what's the Black City and what are random ruins floating in the fade in DAI.



#19
German Soldier

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    It is interesting that no one seems to have realised that sinking the Tevinter ship leaving the Storm Coast with red lyrium means the stuff is now also at the bottom of the sea and infecting marine life.    

 

 

Poor starfishes..