103 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

Whether loot is fixed or RNG, I hope the loot is schematics that can result in a crafted item later rather than actual gear you lug around or scrap/sell. Inventory management is tedious.

[Rascoth]

Its worth remembering that DAI didn't launch with the Black Emporium. Getting good schematics was much more frustrating before that was added.

*flashbacks*

 

Praise the Golden Nug.

[shodiswe]

You can also have a system of both random and fixed. Random helps make it more interesting and could help add to replayability. Fixed ensures a minimum of needed items.

[Mdizzletr0n]

You guys do realize that (if following the DAI method) you wouldn't have to take everything from the chest/box/safe/cache/whatever? If everything in it sucks, just leave it. *shrugs*

[tesla21]

As someone said, I think ME3 and ME2 did it just fine.

 

Having to prepare your outfit before going on a mission was nice for roleplaying... and weapons are just weapons in ME, there aren't magical legendary items in Mass Effect and that as well worked fine for roleplaying. And about random guns... well why should this level 1 shotgun barely tickle enemies while this tiny level 18 semi auto pistol does x3 times the damage per shot? And why does this other pistol that is nearly identical to that level 18 pistol except for a bit recoloring do like twice as much damage? Just because it got better RNG? Meh. 

 

I must've beenamong the few that didn't really care for Mass Effect's combat, not even in the first one I saw any particular appeal to that particulary side of the game. The gameplay was fun alright but to me it was all about the story and roleplaying inside it. So ideally I would have the most "realistic" approach to the game. I don't want the loot system to turn into it a MMO grinding for the best rng game nor do I particulary look forward legendary pistols forged in the fires of (insert random lava planet). I am only hoping they make the skill trees diverse enoguh and keep the way items work fundamentally the same. 

[BraveVesperia]

I quite liked the way DAO and DA2 did it. You got really valuable armour/weapons from fixed loot chests or boss battles. But along the way there was randomised loot in the form of healing items, components, lower tier armour/weapons (which were often good for selling so you can buy something good). I'm not sure how that would work in MEA, but I'd really hate for the good stuff to be locked behind randomised loot barriers. That happened in DAI, and it drove me a little nutty until the Black Emporium and Golden Nug were included.

[sleasye74]

Just don't give me a loot system filled with garbage items, In DAI I craft items that make what is considered rare or ultra rare items look like a joke(and that's with T1 mats). I'm currently running a game on nightmare(3trials) were my inquisitor and companions use all crafted T3 or T4 armor/weapon schems made with T1 mats(thank god for the golden nug), it seems pretty easy so far and the random/fixed loot doesn't compare(except vitarr, I wish we could craft it).
Like I said just don't give garbage items please

[MichaelN7]

I agree with tesla21, ME2 and ME3 did it perfectly.

 

But beyond that, I don't think the RNG is something that players will look kindly on, since it's annoying at best and game-breaking at worst.

I feel it should be skill-based, predominantly.

 

I like story-based loot, so if there's anything like that (the named crystal from KOTOR2, essence gems from Jade Empire, etc.) it should be plot-based i.e. you finish Act 1, main villain reveals themselves, the Macguffin is now equippable, or some such.

 

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As for the skill-based, I'd like to see a blend of Skyrim leveling (your skills improve as you use them) with something akin to bonus objectives (if you do just the base objectives, you get the standard reward, but if you complete the bonus objectives, you get an additional weapon mod alongside).

As an example:

Landing hits with a shotgun consistently will give your character experience in shotguns, reflected in an increase in accuracy and damage.

So while you may find new WEAPONS in the field (like ME2 and ME3), your SKILL with those weapons is up to you.

 

It would be a fusion of the ME1/ME2 system where certain classes could use different weapons with varying effectiveness (or not at all), and the ME3 system where there were no weapon restrictions of any kind, merely reflected in your class passive to a small degree.

 

The idea is that regardless of class, you can use every kind of weapon ADEQUATELY, but consistently performing well with a weapon type will improve your character's ability to maximize the output.

So rather than a simple removal of restriction, the whole system could integrate what you use and how much/how well you use it, and plan accordingly.

 

If my character is using shotguns a lot, I wouldn't be looking for sniper parts when I loot the enemy base I just took out, so the loot system would "see" that and drop loot based on what I'm using.

 

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Or they could stick with the ME3 system, I have no problem with that.

Mass Effect is about the story, not the loot.

Just give us lots of cool options to find in the field and then let us pick what we want to use.

[AlanC9]

I wouldn't say ME2 and ME3 did it "perfectly." The gear part was OK, but why are Shepard's credits limited? Haven't Cerberus and the Alliance ever heard of expense accounts?

[Master Warder Z_]

The idea is that regardless of class, you can use every kind of weapon ADEQUATELY

 

Not every soldier is instructed in the usage of all weapons though.

 

I myself trained as infantry can shoot anything from MR's to AR's and everything in between but...I wasn't instructed on how to use anything else but a side arm, I can't work a machine gun or grenade launcher for example. Well in theory I guess I could...I mean guns generally have the principle of aiming in the general direction of what you want to shoot and then pulling the trigger, but truth be told? I wasn't given a whole lot of training in anything besides rifles, I mean really outside of rifles the military as a whole doesn't use a lot.

 

Shotguns are something I never encountered period(not counting under barrel) outside of urban warfare and to clear buildings occasionally due to several issues due to weight of ammunition, to their battlefield ineffectiveness, etc.

 

o.o That would be 'boring' though in a game, wouldn't it? to only have assault rifles, battle rifles, and pistols.

 

I mean if anything weapons should be more modular in ME, you can already retool a rifle to shoot shotgun shells and grenades and more.

[AlanC9]

Just don't give me a loot system filled with garbage items, In DAI I craft items that make what is considered rare or ultra rare items look like a joke(and that's with T1 mats). I'm currently running a game on nightmare(3trials) were my inquisitor and companions use all crafted T3 or T4 armor/weapon schems made with T1 mats(thank god for the golden nug), it seems pretty easy so far and the random/fixed loot doesn't compare(except vitarr, I wish we could craft it).
Like I said just don't give garbage items please

So... you're using the Golden Nug to make crafting insanely OP.... and you're complaining about crafting being insanely OP?

[The Hierophant]

So... you're using the Golden Nug to make crafting insanely OP.... and you're complaining about crafting being insanely OP?

No, more like they appreciate the golden nug because it saves them from hours of dealing with DAI's awful rng system.

[AlanC9]

I quite liked the way DAO and DA2 did it. You got really valuable armour/weapons from fixed loot chests or boss battles. But along the way there was randomised loot in the form of healing items, components, lower tier armour/weapons (which were often good for selling so you can buy something good). I'm not sure how that would work in MEA, but I'd really hate for the good stuff to be locked behind randomised loot barriers. That happened in DAI, and it drove me a little nutty until the Black Emporium and Golden Nug were included.

Just so I'm sure I'm following this, the objective here is to make it possible for players to plan their game around where the good loot is, right? And the problem is that you can't go after the High-Powered Whatsit Sniper Rifle if it isn't fixed loot?

[AlanC9]

No, more like they appreciate the golden nug because it saves them from hours of dealing with DAI's awful rng system.

I don't follow this. When would you need to "deal with" the RNG system unless you were trying to get better stuff than what it was giving you?

Anyway, the guy said he was using T3 and T4 schematics with T1 mats. Unless it's later in the game and he's only using the T1 mats to handicap himself, he's definitely making the game easier with the Nug.

[RoboticWater]

So... you're using the Golden Nug to make crafting insanely OP.... and you're complaining about crafting being insanely OP?

Even without the Nug, you could pretty consistently craft items that are more powerful than the legendary items you pick up. It kills the reward inherent to looting.

 

I wouldn't say ME2 and ME3 did it "perfectly." The gear part was OK, but why are Shepard's credits limited? Haven't Cerberus and the Alliance ever heard of expense accounts?

There needs to be some kind of gradual progression or else players will just buy all the equipment they want up front and never change their play style from there. If the game isn't going to gate new gear behind mission progression (i.e. finding a weapon during a mission or getting it as a reward), then there needs to be some other arbitrary system to compensate.

[Pasquale1234]

I wouldn't say ME2 and ME3 did it "perfectly." The gear part was OK, but why are Shepard's credits limited? Haven't Cerberus and the Alliance ever heard of expense accounts?

In ME2 & 3, Shepard received funding for each mission completed.

Which made a whole lot more sense than Shepard needing to scrounge for credits ala ME1.

[The Hierophant]

I don't follow this. When would you need to "deal with" the RNG system unless you were trying to get better stuff than what it was giving you?

The schematics are better than what's usually given to you because by the time you reach the equipment's level requirement it's underpowered when dealing with similarly leveled enemies, which makes even random fights longer.

[AlanC9]

Even without the Nug, you could pretty consistently craft items that are more powerful than the legendary items you pick up. It kills the reward inherent to looting.

Unless you're looting schematics or higher-tier mats.

I agree that crafted stuff can often outclass non-crafted. I was just pointing out that the Nug makes this aspect far worse. And to some extent I think the real problem is that crafted gear doesn't have level limits. I've found several items that are better than what I can craft in my current run, and seen better in shops. (Cureently at L14 with a mix of T1 and T2 schematics and only a limited supply of T2 mats.) But nobody can equip the better items. And by the time anybody can equip the stuff, chances are it'll be no better than what I'm crafting.

What's the answer? Crafted gear can't be inferior to found gear or crafting is worthless. For ME I'd prefer to do everything via crafting, actually. Loot would just be schematics and components.

There needs to be some kind of gradual progression or else players will just buy all the equipment they want up front and never change their play style from there. If the game isn't going to gate new gear behind mission progression (i.e. finding a weapon during a mission or getting it as a reward), then there needs to be some other arbitrary system to compensate.

But in ME2 and ME3 I'm not sure that credits do change your playstyle. New weapons can, but they're almost always found rather than bought. All that credits typically do is make what you're already doing better.

[AlanC9]

In ME2 & 3, Shepard received funding for each mission completed.Which made a whole lot more sense than Shepard needing to scrounge for credits ala ME1.

Yes, it was far better. I just think it was still bad. Surely Hackett could have authorized an Amex card for Shepard.

I'm not a big fan of CRPGs using mechanics that don't make sense for the plot and setting just because these mechanics are things that CRPGs traditionally do.

I don't know what this means for ME:A yet; depends on how things are set up.

[Master Warder Z_]

In ME2 & 3, Shepard received funding for each mission completed.

Which made a whole lot more sense than Shepard needing to scrounge for credits ala ME1.

 

You figure a organization supported by Billionaires and the Military industrial complex could pay better but whatever...

[RoboticWater]

But in ME2 and ME3 I'm not sure that credits do change your playstyle. New weapons can, but they're almost always found rather than bought. All that credits typically do is make what you're already doing better.

True, but I thought there were more than a few buyable weapons in ME3. Regardless, I think Mass Effect would benefit by divorcing personal income and military budget. Money scrounged up or earned as a salary could be used to buy cosmetic items for our clothing or personal quarters (hell, maybe the game could put a negative stigma on rummaging through bodies and illegally procuring credits). Purchasing schematics, manufacturing gear, and upgrading to different item tiers would cost astronomically more (as I assume they do in real life), but they would be acquired with military resources. ME could even adopt an XCOM style research tree, forcing us to decide where we want our organization to specialize.

[Pasquale1234]

Yes, it was far better. I just think it was still bad. Surely Hackett could have authorized an Amex card for Shepard.

Managing a budget can be part and parcel of role-play. Choice and consequence.

And really, what would you have done with unlimited credits? Buy up every weapon upgrade, mod upgrade, armor piece, fish, and hamster at the beginning of the game?
 

I'm not a big fan of CRPGs using mechanics that don't make sense for the plot and setting just because these mechanics are things that CRPGs traditionally do.

People seem to expect gear to be gradually improved throughout the game. It's a commonly accepted (and typically expected) player reward, and along with level-ups, provide a sense of achievement, progress, and growth.

[Wulfram]

I don't follow this. When would you need to "deal with" the RNG system unless you were trying to get better stuff than what it was giving you?

Well, because you want to get stuff that's as good as the what it was giving you but looked cooler. Or because you wanted to have stuff that's as good, but in a different way.

The chief virtue of crafting should be a way to give the player more control over their equipment, but that only works if their are multiple reasonably equivalent options.

Mass Effect has generally been pretty good at that, even if it hasn't had crafting

[AlanC9]

Yeah, I keep forgetting that looks are a thing.

But I can't think of a situation where more control wouldn't just equate to more power anyway.

[AlanC9]

The schematics are better than what's usually given to you because by the time you reach the equipment's level requirement it's underpowered when dealing with similarly leveled enemies, which makes even random fights longer.

Um... sure. But that was exactly my point. If crafting makes the game too easy, then caring about what the RNG gives you rather than just using whatever you get is counterproductive. Your argument here is that crafting and abusing the RNG is needed to make the game easy enough for you, which is a completely different argument.