295 réponses à ce sujet

[Illegitimus]

"The maker has spoken to me, you have to take me with you."

 

Not a very dangerous lie looked upon with modern eyes, but if you're someone who actually believes in an all-mighty and all-knowing higher power and occasionally cried yourself to sleep as a child having been told that he abandoned "you" because "you" killed the bravest and strongest and wisest woman in the world?

 

I have serious doubt that anything Leliana says about her motivations in Origins is true. Her ditzy and eccentric behavior doesn't carry over to DAII or Inquisition where she's as sane as anyone and quite a bit more pragmatic and ruthless. There's an argument to be made that it's an act and that she's on an extended mission for Mother Dorothea, whom she runs back to immediately after the Blight is over and who appoints her "Right Hand of the Divine" at her own ascension just a few years later, Leliana being spotted working as a Seeker during the same year the Archdemon is slain. The pendant she's carrying in Lothering being called "Seeker's Circle" would seem suspicious too, but its description vaguely makes it out to be more or less common within the Chantry.

 

Also, you know, former murderer. And femme fatale. For hire. So, assassin, murderous prostitute and religious zealot. Nobody is clean I guess. Except for Alistair. He's just too young and dumb to have a proper Past.

 

Some of the things she says are true.  She certainly had a dream and took it as a message possibly even from the Maker.  We have confirmation of that from her fade dream and from the question the doorman spirit for Andraste's Ashes.  This of course in no way precludes her also working as an agent for Dorothea/Justinia..  The best lies usually contain a lot of truth.  I'll admit the Seeker's Circle put that thought in my mind as well.   

[Aren]

IF Leliana's story about her past had been the truth, then she seriously would have to worry about the Orlesians being after her because she was a traitor to Orlais who broke out of prison.  The reason why she knows it's Marjolaine and not the Orlesian crown after her, is because her story was a lie.  She never escaped Orlesian prison because she was never in Orlesian prison because Marjolaine never denounced her to the Orlesian authorities.  As she comes to like you more she'll come closer to the real story of her background, but she'll never actually tell you more than half the truth.  In the main game at least.  

 

And note, this is a lie that she tells you even as she asks you to help her against her mentor who she now fears.  Remind you of anyone?  

I played the Dlc Leliana'song and it seems to me that the Orlesian empire was unaware of everything the only one who knew something and were alive were Marjoline and Leliana and that's why Marjolaine wanted her dead because she was a witness of those events. ;

Where is this lie during the Marjoline quest?

 

I'm not sue however what this have to do with agenda carried on the present (timeline of DAO)  at the back of the warden which is something that only pretains Morrigan  in DAO.

[ThomasBlaine]

 

I played the Dlc Leliana'song and it seems to me that the Orlesian empire was unaware of everything the only one who knew something and were alive were Marjoline and Leliana and that's why Marjolaine wanted her dead because she was a witness of those events. ;

Where is this lie during the Marjoline quest?

 

I'm not sue however what this have to do with agenda carried on the present (timeline of DAO)  at the back of the warden which is something that only pretains Morrigan  in DAO.

 

 

I'm not sure how Morrigan having an agenda that involves the Warden is supposed to be worse than what Leliana or Zevran used to do for a living, and as Morrigan's agenda doesn't come to light until in the last few days of the game, along with the revelation that it's intended to save the Warden's life, and Leliana and Zevran admit to their old escapades without any shame, I'm doubly uncertain why the Warden would see it that way.

 

Someone tricking you and your companions, proven warriors of legendary efficiency, into killing a dragon to save their own life is a dick move, sure, but other party members are forgiven on the spot for far worse. And she doesn't pressure you into it either, she just asks if you're willing to do it for her and if you ask about a time limit she'll tell you that there's no hurry and it wouldn't even have to be until after the Blight.

 

And let's not pretend that having an ulterior motive for risking your neck a hundred times over besides just saving a country that hates and hunts you is a crime in and of itself.

[Aren]

I'm not sure how Morrigan having an agenda that involves the Warden is supposed to be worse than what Leliana or Zevran used to do for a living, 

What Leliana and Zevran did in their past to others doesn't concern me, the moment they decide to trick me personally is the moment the will pay the consequences

 

and as Morrigan's agenda doesn't come to light until in the last few days of the game, along with the revelation that it's intended to save the Warden's life.

and the old god soul which I wanted to destroy from the start at any cost.

 

 

Someone tricking you and your companions, proven warriors of legendary efficiency, into killing a dragon to save their own life is a dick move, sure, but other party members are forgiven on the spot for far worse. 

I don't recall companions doing worse things than that and get away alive while instead Morrigan was provided with full plot armor in DAO.

 

 

 

And let's not pretend that having an ulterior motive for risking your neck a hundred times over besides just saving a country that hates and hunts you is a crime in and of itself.

Having an ulterior motive that imply to use me is something that rise my anger for sure  especially her shamelessly attempts at manipulation which made things worse. so i'm not sure why Morrigan should get away with it with plot armors.

[ThomasBlaine]

 

What Leliana and Zevran did in their past to others doesn't concern me, the moment they decide to trick me personally is the moment the will pay the consequences

 

and the old god soul which I wanted to destroy from the start at any cost.

 

I don't recall companions doing worse things than that and get away alive while instead Morrigan was provided with full plot armor in DAO.

 

Having an ulterior motive that imply to use me is something that rise my anger for sure  especially her shamelessly attempts at manipulation which made things worse. so i'm not sure why Morrigan should get away with it with plot armors.

 

 

Well, not everybody is as forgiving of the rampant seduction and murder of fellow men as you are. Or as selectively touchy about - gasp - deception. Or as determined to punish people for plans you don't know much about involving the preservation of things you intend to kill, which you also don't know much about, in addition to your own life.

[Illegitimus]

 

I played the Dlc Leliana'song and it seems to me that the Orlesian empire was unaware of everything the only one who knew something and were alive were Marjoline and Leliana and that's why Marjolaine wanted her dead because she was a witness of those events. ;

Where is this lie during the Marjoline quest?

 

I'm not sue however what this have to do with agenda carried on the present (timeline of DAO)  at the back of the warden which is something that only pretains Morrigan  in DAO.

 

 

Yes Orlais was unaware of anything that happened.  But that's not the story Leliana told about Marjolaine.  According to Leliana, their falling out happened in Val Royeux and Marjolaine, afraid that Leliana would rat her out beat her to the punch by going to the Orlesian crown espionage service and blaming everything on Leliana.  It didn't happen that way.  Initially I wasn't certain that Leliana's Song was the true story (or at least truer) until I realized that Leliana's Song actually explains why Leliana is so confident that it isn't the Orlesians after her and won't explain why.  It particularly makes sense if it's a Warden with a Ferelden origin which is half of them and even the ones who aren't might tell Alistair.  So while asking the Warden for help against her former mentor, Leliana lies about the genesis of their current enmity.  If Morrigan did that, there would be rants.  The double standard of course is because while Leliana may be deceitful, she's pleasant about it.  

 

As for hidden agendas...we don't know that Leliana doesn't have one.  Leliana's Song also recounts her first encounter with Mother Dorothea, who uses Leliana as a spy during it and uses Leliana as a spy later.  The idea that Dorothea/Justinia is using Leliana as a spy during the events of Origins is speculation of course.  It would perhaps be reading too much into Leliana wearing something called a "Seeker's Circle" that boosts her cunning to suggest that means that means she's already back in the espionage game, only now on behalf of the Chantry when she first meets the Warden.  But I kind of like the idea.  It certainly doesn't make me think less of Leliana if she does have a hidden agenda.  I like hidden agendas when they are appropriate.

 

 

 

What Leliana and Zevran did in their past to others doesn't concern me, the moment they decide to trick me personally is the moment the will pay the consequences

 

 

And Leliana did lie to you about her past with Marjolaine..  Gonna desecrate Andraste's Ashes?   You'd have to stall finishing Redcliffe until after the companion sidequest...

[Aren]

Yes Orlais was unaware of anything that happened. But that's not the story Leliana told about Marjolaine. According to Leliana, their falling out happened in Val Royeux and Marjolaine, afraid that Leliana would rat her out beat her to the punch by going to the Orlesian crown espionage service and blaming everything on Leliana. It didn't happen that way. Initially I wasn't certain that Leliana's Song was the true story (or at least truer) until I realized that Leliana's Song actually explains why Leliana is so confident that it isn't the Orlesians after her and won't explain why. It particularly makes sense if it's a Warden with a Ferelden origin which is half of them and even the ones who aren't might tell Alistair. So while asking the Warden for help against her former mentor, Leliana lies about the genesis of their current enmity. If Morrigan did that, there would be rants. The double standard of course is because while Leliana may be deceitful, she's pleasant about it.

As for hidden agendas...we don't know that Leliana doesn't have one. Leliana's Song also recounts her first encounter with Mother Dorothea, who uses Leliana as a spy during it and uses Leliana as a spy later. The idea that Dorothea/Justinia is using Leliana as a spy during the events of Origins is speculation of course. It would perhaps be reading too much into Leliana wearing something called a "Seeker's Circle" that boosts her cunning to suggest that means that means she's already back in the espionage game, only now on behalf of the Chantry when she first meets the Warden. But I kind of like the idea. It certainly doesn't make me think less of Leliana if she does have a hidden agenda. I like hidden agendas when they are appropriate.



And Leliana did lie to you about her past with Marjolaine.. Gonna desecrate Andraste's Ashes? You'd have to stall finishing Redcliffe until after the companion sidequest...

The DLC Leliana song was not meant to describe her past with accurancy,is even stated in the epilogue that everything(places,npc,ecc..)may change according to the PoV.
Leliana was imprisoned in Orlais or maybe in Ferelden or maybe in Antiva i simply don't know and honestly i don't even care.

Leliana in DAO has no personal agenda and the quest of the Urn can be resolved with no problems (hardened Leliana or Unhardened Leliana who is not brought there)unless the warden is a true moron for knowing her faith but still destroying the Urn in front of her thus being forced to kill her....


I don't need to defend Leliana because i don't even care I just find curious why you or ThomasBlaine feel the need to justify the wrong Morrigan did to the warden with contrived comparisions with the others Npc especially in regard of their past rather than something present for the warden?

The others NPC are the others NPC and they don't have any plot armor in DAO ,Morrigan is Morrigan.

[MisterJB]

"The wrong Morrigan did to the Warden?"

I must have missed the part where she tied you up and raped you or something.

[ThomasBlaine]

I don't need to defend Leliana because i don't even care I just find curious why you or ThomasBlaine feel the need to justify the wrong Morrigan did to the warden with contrived comparisions with the others Npc especially in regard of their past rather than something present for the warden?

The others NPC are the others NPC and they don't have any plot armor in DAO ,Morrigan is Morrigan.

 

I find it curious why you insist on viewing Morrigan as nothing but a manipulative witch while completely forgiving the colossal moral failures of everybody else. Not because they're less offensive or destructive or their actions don't endanger the Warden, which they aren't and do, but simply because you don't care about all that compared to not being allowed to kill Morrigan on the spot as opposed to later for having goals of her own.

[Illegitimus]

I don't need to defend Leliana because i don't even care I just find curious why you or ThomasBlaine feel the need to justify the wrong Morrigan did to the warden with contrived comparisions with the others Npc especially in regard of their past rather than something present for the warden?
 

 

 

Morrigan didn't do any wrong to the Warden.  That she has "plot armour" is irrelevant. 

[Aren]

I find it curious why you insist on viewing Morrigan as nothing but a manipulative witch while completely forgiving the colossal moral failures of everybody else. Not because they're less offensive or destructive or their actions don't endanger the Warden, which they aren't and do, but simply because you don't care about all that compared to not being allowed to kill Morrigan on the spot as opposed to later for having goals of her own.

None of the others characters tried to use me for their own ends with deception and tried to save my archenemy Urthemiel, Morrigan did that which make the difference.

That Zevran is an assassin,or that Sten is a mass murderer or that Leliana is a bard or that Loghain was an enemy  i don't care., the moment they try to use me or injury me when they are under my party and leadership they pay the consequences.

 

Morrigan didn't do any wrong to the Warden.  That she has "plot armour" is irrelevant. 

She deceived the warden during  Flemeth quest,no actually she decieved the warden for the whole adventure.

[German Soldier]

"The wrong Morrigan did to the Warden?"

I must have missed the part where she tied you up and raped you or something.

I must have missed the part in which you was not clearly on of those biased toward Morrigan even once try to argue with me how Morrigan wasn't overused because was in one game and a half which wasn't even true given that she had 4 arithmetical appearances in the franchise.

 

Morrigan deceived the PC

attempted to use them for her own ends with manipulation

endangered their life against her mommy based on deception ( hiding a part of the truth is by definition deception she did not even deny  in WH).

 

 

That's why she apoplogies in WH , those apologies aren't headcanon but factual in games dialogues if someone did nothing wrong then it not need to apologize...

[Illegitimus]

 

 

She deceived the warden during  Flemeth quest,no actually she decieved the warden for the whole adventure.

 

 

Leliana deceived the Warden during the Marjolaine quest.  Flemeth deceived the Warden just as much as Morrigan.  No...more.  Neither of them get the same heat.  And deceiving the Warden did the Warden no harm.  

[German Soldier]

Leliana deceived the Warden during the Marjolaine quest. 

Where?

[Aren]

  Flemeth deceived the Warden just as much as Morrigan.  No...more.  Neither of them get the same heat.  And deceiving the Warden did the Warden no harm.  

Flemeth attacks suffered by my warden was harm caused by Morrigan deception.

[Illegitimus]

Where?

 

I already answered that.  She lied about her falling out with Marjolaine.  And we know she lied about her falling out with Marjolaine because she is certain that it isn't the Orlesians after her.  If she'd told the truth there would be no way for her to be that certain.  

[German Soldier]

I already answered that.  She lied about her falling out with Marjolaine.  And we know she lied about her falling out with Marjolaine because she is certain that it isn't the Orlesians after her.  If she'd told the truth there would be no way for her to be that certain.  

I asked  because i read your previous post and was in disagreement.

Leliana being aware that is Marjoline who is haunting her and not the Orlesian empire is because the assassins Marjoline sent to kill her was beated and interrogated by the warden and she understood it was  Marjoline behind this,it wasn't a lie but just a guess made from leliana in the end she discovered that she was right.

[ThomasBlaine]

 

None of the others characters tried to use me for their own ends with deception and tired to save my archenemy Urthemiel, Morrigan did that's the difference and is a big difference.

That Zevran is an assassin,or that Sten is a mass murderer or that Leliana is a bard or that Loghain was an enemy  i don't care., the moment they try to use me or injury me when they are with me they die.

 

She deceived the warden during  Flemeth quest,no actually she decieved the warden for the whole adventure.

 

 

Among all the different kinds of morality the writers of Dragon Age had to figure out how to enable, I'm sure 'doesn't care about anyone else but gets morally and mortally offended at being lied to - sometimes - or unwittingly furthering someone else's agenda - if he feels like perceiving it as such - and also considers corrupted ancient spirits of dubious sentience glimpsed once his deadly personal rivals and will kill anyone who gets in the way regardless of reasoning or good intentions towards his own self" came up at some point but was decided too weird, inconsistent and generally ridiculous to make it into the game. Maybe next time.

 

 

I must have missed the part in which you was not clearly on of those biased toward Morrigan even once try to argue with me how Morrigan wasn't overused because was in one game and a half which wasn't even true given that she had 4 arithmetical appearances in the franchise.

 

Morrigan deceived the PC attempted to use them for her own ends with manipulation and even endangered their life against her mommy based on deception and that's why she apoplogies in WH and no those apologies aren't headcanon but factual in games dialogues.

 

Interesting how not utterly vilifying and condemning a character for lying to you to save her life is being "one of those biased". That says quite a lot more about your views than it does about anybody else's, to be honest. What do you mean by "overused"? Lots of characters can be said to be overused. Leliana certainly, far more than Morrigan. What you mean by "4 arithmetical appearances" is beyond me as well.

 

Flemeth attacks suffered by my warden was harm caused by Morrigan deception.

 

"Flemeth attacks" suffered - and immediately healed - by your Warden were caused by his/her decision to knowingly assault an unnaturally powerful spirit and spellcaster, a decision nobody forced him/her to make. That those attacks came in the form of the claws of a dragon rather than a griffon or giant eagle or just an old woman cooking your insides with lightning isn't quite as big a deal as you're making it out to be.

[Illegitimus]

 

Flemeth attacks suffered by my warden was harm caused by Morrigan deception.

 

 

Nope.  Assuming that you really, really hate the Dark Ritual and want to kill the person trying to get you to do it...then you wanted to kill Flemeth anyway.  Because it's Flemeth's plan from the getgo.  So Morrigan tells or doesn't tell you...makes no difference.  You end up fighting Flemeth dragon either way.  

[German Soldier]

 

Interesting how not utterly vilifying and condemning a character for lying to you to save her life is being "one of those biased". That says quite a lot more about your views than it does about anybody else's, to be honest. What do you mean by "overused"? Lots of characters are overused. Leliana certainly is, far more than Morrigan. What you mean by "4 arithmetical appearances" is beyond me as well.

 

 

 

DAO=1

WH=2

Last court=3

DAI=4

This is what i meant by arithmetically having four appearances and guess what i'm right.

Morrigan used the warden to get rid of FLemeth's under a deception which is a betrayal.

I'm not condemning some innocent puppies but someone who did wrong against the warden.

[Illegitimus]

 

Morrigan used the warden to get rid of FLemeth's under a deception which is a betrayal.

I'm not condemning some innocent puppies but someone who did wrong against the warden.

 

Leliana used the Warden to get rid of Marjolaine under a deception "which is a betrayal". String her up!

 

Or, you know  just accept that people tell lies and withhold facts and it's not that big a deal.  

 

My (Human Noble's) reaction to Morrigan thinking she'd deceived me was "Well aren't you just the most adorably naive backwoods hick with a fake posh accent."  Morrigan didn't fool anyone.  Alistair knew she was up to something.  Shale knew she was up to something.  Oghren knew she was up to something.  

[Aren]

Among all the different kinds of morality the writers of Dragon Age had to figure out how to enable, I'm sure 'doesn't care about anyone else but gets morally and mortally offended at being lied to - sometimes - or unwittingly furthering someone else's agenda - if he feels like perceiving it as such - and also considers corrupted ancient spirits of dubious sentience glimpsed once his deadly personal rivals and will kill anyone who gets in the way regardless of reasoning or good intentions towards his own self" came up at some point but was decided too weird, inconsistent and generally ridiculous to make it into the game. Maybe next time.

 

Did you even realize how many instances and conditions you inserted in your own post then dismissed it because they revolve around Morrigan?

 

I was been deceived and lied for the whole time like an imbecile of course i'm  offended that's a pretty common reaction.

Someone wanted to use me for their own interests at my back of course i'm offended that's pretty common reaction

Someone attempted to save my enemy of course that's an issue and that's pretty common reaction as well.

 

Nope.  Assuming that you really, really hate the Dark Ritual and want to kill the person trying to get you to do it...then you wanted to kill Flemeth anyway.  Because it's Flemeth's plan from the getgo.  So Morrigan tells or doesn't tell you...makes no difference.  You end up fighting Flemeth dragon either way.  

I had no desire to kill someone which is unkillable for the warden in DAO,the whole point of that quest was to buy time for Morrigan not to get rid of Flemeth once and for all.Had i know about the ritual i would not  have  marched against Flemeth the immortal to waste my time but simply attempted to eliminate the old god in my current mission,simple.

In fact kill Flemeth is pointless while kill the old god is not.

[German Soldier]

Leliana used the Warden to get rid of Marjolaine under a deception "which is a betrayal". String her up!

 

Or, you know be adult enough to realize that people tell lies and withhold facts and it's not that big a deal.  

I find this to be more a lame justification for deceptions,become adults doesn't mean become liars especially with friends and lovers.

 

Leliana did not decieved the warden during Marjoline quest so i'm not sure why you are claiming that based on those arguementations which are not even evidences?

[Illegitimus]

 

I find this to be more a lame justification for deceptions,become adults doesn't mean become liars especially with friends and lovers.

 

Leliana did not decieved the warden during Marjoline quest so i'm not sure why you are claiming that based on those arguementations which are not even evidences?

 

 

Of course adults don't become liars.  Children lie too.  But it's when you realize that you aren't the center of the universe and other people have their own goals and needs that you are no longer terribly, terribly shocked that people will hide things from you.  And when Morrigan begins Flemeth's plan, she is neither the Warden's friend nor lover.  As for Leliana, lying to friends and lovers is pretty much a professional requirement.  Nothing could be more natural than not admitting the espionage, mayhem and murder she commited in Denerim, while she's in Ferelden and hanging out with Fereldens.  The most common lies people tell to friends are the ones told out of fear that the truth would end or at least damage that friendship.  And Leliana's opening speech in Leliana's Song is all about her shaky relationship with the truth.  

[ThomasBlaine]

DAO=1

WH=2

Last court=3

DAI=4

This is what i meant by arithmetically having four appearances and guess what i'm right.

Morrigan used the warden to get rid of FLemeth's under a deception which is a betrayal.

I'm not condemning some innocent puppies but someone who did wrong against the warden.

 

And Leliana appears in Origins, Song of Leliana, Darkspawn Chronicles, Dragon Age 2, Mark of the Assassin, Inquisition, Trespasser, The Masked Empire, Asunder and Magekiller. What's your point?

 

Christ, not with the "betrayals" again. One would think you people were royalty the way you go on about people having different plans than your own.

 

Did you even realize how many instances and conditions you inserted in your own post then dismissed it because they revolve around Morrigan?

 

I'm summarizing your take on the Warden's morality, not mine. It's not my fault that it's wonky, inconsistent and hyper-specialized.

 

 

Did you even realize how many instances and conditions you inserted in your own post then dismissed it because they revolve around Morrigan?

 

I was been deceived and lied for the whole time like an imbecile of course i'm  offended that's a pretty common reaction.

Someone wanted to use me for their own interests at my back of course i'm offended that's pretty common reaction

Someone attempted to save my enemy of course that's an issue and that's pretty common reaction as well.

 

Loghain takes it much better than you do, and the same information was withheld from him back when it would actually have made a huge difference in how he went about dealing with the Blight and completely changed the course of history, potentially saving thousands of lives. You're just sore because you don't get the entire picture until it becomes important, at which point you get full disclosure and aren't forced to do anything against your will.

 

Your insistence that the Archdemon which you know next to nothing about is your personal nemesis and that Morrigan's desire to purify and preserve its power - which she can't and won't try to do without your help - gets in the way of some ridiculous ultra-macho agreement you think you have with the universe that killing it completely yourself is your destiny no matter what and anybody who even words an alternative that makes you feel a little stupid deserves to be struck down for their impudence and not following your script - is actually pretty funny.

 

Again though, not something I'd blame the developers for not enabling.