295 réponses à ce sujet

[Secret Rare]

 

Someone attempted to save my enemy of course that's an issue and that's pretty common reaction as well.

 

 

Not only an enemy for the wardens but for the entire world as well, a stupid homicidal dragon that need only to go on grave alongside his cult.

[German Soldier]

And Leliana appears in Origins, Song of Leliana, Darkspawn Chronicles, Dragon Age 2, Mark of the Assassin, Inquisition, Trespasser, The Masked Empire, Asunder and Magekiller. What's your point?

 

Christ, not with the "betrayals" again. One would think you people were royalty the way you go on about people having different plans than your own.

 

 

 

 

 

Morrigan is also in the non canonical Darkspawn dlc which i did not mentioned because is not canonical if you wish to include it then we are at 5.

and you even included books(something that 90% of players don't even read)while i did not because i did not mentioned the  Morrigan past extrapolated in  the WoT

And what's your point in using Leliana again? You are being incredibly ridiculous here.

Did i said Leliana is not overused?Leliana is overused just as Morrigan is overused they need to be removed from the franchise now bring the new faces that's the point.

 

Yes Morrigan actions are a form of betrayal period end you can either accept that since you cannot define meaning for other people based on your own  Pov,those dialogues of betrayal are even in WH included by the writers.

[Akiza]

 

Yes Morrigan actions are a form of betrayal period end you can either accept that you cannot define meaning for other people based on your own biased Pov,those dialogues of betrayal are even in WH included by the writers.

 

She signed her contract with the knife the moment she entered the Redcliffe castle for her blasphemous DR with no authorization whatsoever since she wasn't in my party and Gaider protected her there with a plot armor just as he protected her in WH with another plot armor just as he protected her vs the red lyrium dragon with another plot armor.

[ThomasBlaine]

 

Morrigan is also in the non canonical Darkspawn dlc which i did not mentioned because is not canonical if you wish to include it then we are at 5.

and you even included books(something that 90% of players don't even read)while i did not because i did not mentioned the  Morrigan past extrapolated in  the WoT

And what's your point in using Leliana again? You are being incredibly ridiculous here.

Did i said Leliana is not overused?Leliana is overused just as Morrigan is overused they need to be removed from the franchise now bring the new faces that's the point.

 

Yes Morrigan actions are a form of betrayal period end you can either accept that since you cannot define meaning for other people based on your own  Pov,those dialogues of betrayal are even in WH included by the writers.

 

 

If your point is that characters shouldn't be used for more than whatever arbitrary number of appearances you personally feel appropriate then say that instead of pretending that being overused a particular problem with Morrigan's character without even specifying what you mean by such a statement. And since "too much Morrigan" or "too much Leliana" aren't common complaints we can't even say that they're overused, just that you and I could stand a little less of one or both of them. I could personally stand a lot more Morrigan, making her underused in my opinion.

 

I'm not arguing against it being a "betrayal", just that throwing the word around in any way makes what she does worse than it actually is. And not mentioning that Flemeth has a dragon form isn't that big a deal considering that we already know her to be centuries old and an insanely powerful spellcaster with everything that entails.

 

She signed her contract with the knife the moment she entered the Redcliffe castle for her blasphemous DR with no authorization whatsoever since she wasn't in my party and Gaider protected her there with a plot armor just as he protected her in WH with another plot armor just as he protected her vs the red lyrium dragon with another plot armor.

 

You mean when she enters Redcliffe, waits for you in your room and calmly asks you if you're willing to help her do this thing which would save your life? And doesn't use blood magic or paralysis or confusion spells or anything of that sort to force you or anyone else to do anything they aren't comfortable with? And gets miffed but leaves peacefully and doesn't in any way try to interfere with the quest if you refuse?

 

Yeah. Stabbing her on the spot is totally a sane reaction.

[German Soldier]

If your point is that characters shouldn't be used for more than whatever arbitrary number of appearances you personally feel appropriate then say that instead of pretending that being overused a particular problem with Morrigan's character without even specifying what you mean by such a statement. And since "too much Morrigan" or "too much Leliana" aren't common complaints we can't even say that they're overused, just that you and I could stand a little less of one or both of them. I could personally stand a lot more Morrigan, making her underused in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

Too much of the old DAO crew isn't a an uncommon complaint here in Bsn is actually pretty common (Alsitair,Leliana ad Morrigan).

Morrigan is an abused character not an underused one,she is in DAI when there is no need of her she just insert herself in the meeting of the Inquisitor for no reasons,she is not necessary for the plot she is there only to eliminate the tie up of the DR for the minority who opted for that choice(yes a minority because all the new players of DA don't  have an OGB),for the temple of Mythal players had Solas,for the red lyrium players had the Mythal guardian.

For what reasons she is in DAI to do what?

[Akiza]

 

 

 

You mean when she enters Redcliffe, waits for you in your room and calmly asks you if you're willing to help her do this thing which would save your life? And doesn't use blood magic or paralysis or confusion spells or anything of that sort to force you or anyone else to do anything they aren't comfortable with? And gets miffed but leaves peacefully and doesn't in any way try to interfere with the quest if you refuse?

 

Yeah. Stabbing her on the spot is totally a sane reaction.

Yes is called fierce revenge.

 

She had not received any permission to enter in the castle of Eamon which mean she committed a crime,most importantly i told to her to leave and not return ever in Lothering instead she returned to try to manipulate  me in saving the old god.

Gutting her in WH for revenge was the right choice and a sane choice and she learned the lesson, she had to listen my first warning instead to try to manipulate me for her games, she didn't she paid all the consequences since i forgive none,she had to thanks Gaider if she was not killed in Redcliffe.

[ThomasBlaine]

 

Too much of the old DAO crew isn't a an uncommon complaint here in Bsn is actually pretty common (Alsitair,Leliana ad Morrigan).

Morrigan is an abused character not an underused one,she is in DAI when there is no need of her she just insert herself in the meeting of the Inquisitor for no reasons,she is not necessary for the plot she is there only to eliminate the tie up of the DR for the minority who opted for that choice(yes a minority because all the new players of DA don't  have an OGB),for the temple of Mythal players had Solas,for the red lyrium players had the Mythal guardian.

For what reasons she is in DAI to do what?

 

 

To flesh out Flemeth, and because she's a popular and powerful character who we didn't see at all in the previous game.You're arguing that the writers shouldn't use their characters unless those characters are absolutely necessary for the plot. That's ridiculous. One of the things I really like about Inquisition is that old characters make actual appearances and do play a part without stealing the spotlight instead of being short, boring one-note cameos like in DAII.

 

 

Yes is called fierce revenge.

 

She had not received any permission to enter in the castle of Eamon which mean she committed a crime,most importantly i told to her to leave and not return ever in Lothering instead she returned to try to manipulate  me in saving the old god.

Gutting her in WH for revenge was the right choice and a sane choice and she learned the lesson, she had to listen my first warning instead to try to manipulate me for her games, she didn't she paid all the consequences since i forgive none,she had to thanks Gaider if she was not killed in Redcliffe.

 

 

So... trespassing. Brilliant. And I sure as hell don't want to be the person to bring you a business proposal. Wouldn't want to be mistaken for trying to manipulate you into doing something you don't understand well enough to have an actual problem with, but which you'd kill people for suggesting nonetheless.

[Illegitimus]

 

Yes is called fierce revenge.

 

She had not received any permission to enter in the castle of Eamon which mean she committed a crime,most importantly i told to her to leave and not return ever in Lothering instead she returned to try to manipulate  me in saving the old god.

Gutting her in WH for revenge was the right choice and a sane choice and she learned the lesson, she had to listen my first warning instead to try to manipulate me for her games, she didn't she paid all the consequences since i forgive none,she had to thanks Gaider if she was not killed in Redcliffe.

 

 

That's not manipulation.  She doesn't lie to you.  She doesn't trick you.  She's not at all indirect.  At the end, she's entirely forthright in telling you what she wants from you, what she'll get from it, and what you get from it.  And if you say no, she doesn't go around your back and try to get at one of the other wardens.   I can certainly see why someone would violently disapprove of her desire to save the Old God's soul, but calling her honestly laying out the choice and the consequence of the choice "manipulation" is misrepresentation.  

[ThomasBlaine]

That's not manipulation.  She doesn't lie to you.  She doesn't trick you.  She's not at all indirect.  At the end, she's entirely forthright in telling you what she wants from you, what she'll get from it, and what you get from it.  And if you say no, she doesn't go around your back and try to get at one of the other wardens.   I can certainly see why someone would violently disapprove of her desire to save the Old God's soul, but calling her honestly laying out the choice and the consequence of the choice "manipulation" is misrepresentation.  

 

Well, she does try to press your buttons if you refuse her at first. When I played through the conversation last week she dragged up the idea of the Warden being sacrificed and forgotten while the great Loghain gets all the credit, or surviving and being ignored while Loghain is lauded as a martyr, I don't remember which one. She can be said to be trying to manipulate you, albeit not through deception or even aggressively. That certainly doesn't merit her death though.

[Domakir]

That's not manipulation. She doesn't lie to you. She doesn't trick you. She's not at all indirect. At the end, she's entirely forthright in telling you what she wants from you, what she'll get from it, and what you get from it. And if you say no, she doesn't go around your back and try to get at one of the other wardens. I can certainly see why someone would violently disapprove of her desire to save the Old God's soul, but calling her honestly laying out the choice and the consequence of the choice "manipulation" is misrepresentation.

Actually she does manipulate the warden emotionally if she has a friendship or a romance with him/her.

[German Soldier]

That's not manipulation.  She doesn't lie to you.  She doesn't trick you.  She's not at all indirect.  At the end, she's entirely forthright in telling you what she wants from you, what she'll get from it, and what you get from it.  And if you say no, she doesn't go around your back and try to get at one of the other wardens.   I can certainly see why someone would violently disapprove of her desire to save the Old God's soul, but calling her honestly laying out the choice and the consequence of the choice "manipulation" is misrepresentation.  

Domakir is right

The only one who misinterpreted the events here are you Illegitimus.

Morrigan attempt to manipulate the warden to accept the ritual by using as bargain the warden LI or glory more than once in a sort of blackmail fashion.

[Akiza]

That's not manipulation.  She doesn't lie to you.  She doesn't trick you.  She's not at all indirect.  At the end, she's entirely forthright in telling you what she wants from you, what she'll get from it, and what you get from it.  And if you say no, she doesn't go around your back and try to get at one of the other wardens.   I can certainly see why someone would violently disapprove of her desire to save the Old God's soul, but calling her honestly laying out the choice and the consequence of the choice "manipulation" is misrepresentation.  

You're wrong she attempted at manipulate me to save an archdemon by using various kind of blackmails.

Revenge earned,i do not tolerate someone who is trying to insert in my crew for their own ends.

[ThomasBlaine]

 

Domakir is right

The only one who misinterpreted the events here are you Illegitimus.

Morrigan attempt to manipulate the warden to accept the ritual by using as bargain the warden LI more than once in a sort of blackmail fashion.

 

 

Don't start with the schoolyard bullshit.

 

No she doesn't, she just makes an actual effort to convince them, which makes sense considering what's at stake. "I know a way to save you, but you might not like it" isn't blackmailing someone with their life. She doesn't facilitate the Warden's death for refusing, and she certainly doesn't deserve to be killed herself for even suggesting the Ritual.

[Aren]

The whole thing is complete nonsense,what's so glorious in stabbing a dying critter is beyond me....Defeat it is one thing

(the warden in my case) and kill it when it is already defeated is another(Loghain in my case).

[Aren]

Don't start with the schoolyard bullshit.

 

No she doesn't, she just makes an actual effort to convince them, which makes sense considering what's at stake. "I know a way to save you, but you might not like it" isn't blackmailing someone with their life. She doesn't facilitate the Warden's death for refusing, and she certainly doesn't deserve to be killed herself for even suggesting the Ritual.

I already had this same conversation.

If Morrigan wanted something  she had to ask from the start  in my case i would have said no.

Instead  She  played with these unfair tactics to wait the right moment(right before the battle) to try to blackmail the warden with the fear of death.What she did (witholds informations,blackmail the warden,lie to them and use them vs Flemeth) was wrong

[German Soldier]

Don't start with the schoolyard bullshit.

 

No she doesn't, she just makes an actual effort to convince them, which makes sense considering what's at stake. "I know a way to save you, but you might not like it" isn't blackmailing someone with their life. She doesn't facilitate the Warden's death for refusing, and she certainly doesn't deserve to be killed herself for even suggesting the Ritual.

Actually she blackmails them by attempting to use the warden love interests to convince the warden,that is manipulation.

[Domakir]

Don't start with the schoolyard bullshit.

 

No she doesn't, she just makes an actual effort to convince them, which makes sense considering what's at stake. "I know a way to save you, but you might not like it" isn't blackmailing someone with their life. She doesn't facilitate the Warden's death for refusing, and she certainly doesn't deserve to be killed herself for even suggesting the Ritual.

''If you feel anything for me the accept that it will make what we must do that much easier'' Manipulation. ''Refuse my offer, however, and I leave now'' Manipulation. ''I care for you and I would prefer you to be the father of this child. But if you will not do it, I must find another'' Manipulation. If you refuse she gets angry because you won't giver her what she wants, that's also a form of manipulation. Then you say 'I love you' and her response is ''Not enough'' Manipulation. And whne she leaves she says '' Fare you well, my love, should you live past the morrow I trust it will only be with regret'' Manipulation again. 

The fact that she regrets it later doesn't mean she didn't manipulate him/her.

[ThomasBlaine]

''If you feel anything for me the accept that it will make what we must do that much easier'' Manipulation. ''Refuse my offer, however, and I leave now'' Manipulation. ''I care for you and I would prefer you to be the father of this child. But if you will not do it, I must find another'' Manipulation. If you refuse she gets angry because you won't giver her what she wants, that's also a form of manipulation. Then you say 'I love you' and her response is ''Not enough'' Manipulation. And whne she leaves she says '' Fare you well, my love, should you live past the morrow I trust it will only be with regret'' Manipulation again. 

The fact that she regrets it later doesn't mean she didn't manipulate him/her.

 

It's a fact that she tries to manipulate the Warden, but there's no blackmail involved, and not being allowed to kill a woman for trying to convince you of something that would save your life isn't "plot armor". What's your point?

[Lunatica]

To flesh out Flemeth, and because she's a popular and powerful character who we didn't see at all in the previous game.You're arguing that the writers shouldn't use their characters unless those characters are absolutely necessary for the plot. That's ridiculous. One of the things I really like about Inquisition is that old characters make actual appearances and do play a part without stealing the spotlight instead of being short, boring one-note cameos like in DAII.

 

 

The far fetched reuse of characters bound by optional contents impoverishes the world and the  inevitable consequence the  "small world syndrome"   leave a bitter taste  since apparently the same four cats jump across the continent  to end up hired into the ship of the big adventure who will "save the world" which is ultimately ridiculous, unconvincing,shallow and disappointing.

 

I'm likely to amicably part ways with the DA series from here on out I think BioWare is really going to have to settle on one of two choices:

 

1 - Continue with the current model of a new cast and a new protagonist/antagonist every game. (aka Elder scrolls)

2 - Embrace making true sequels that continue from the story of the previous installment with the same PC like in the Witcher

 

 

 At the moment, they won't commit one way or the other, and the results have been... poor, to say the least.

 

[Domakir]

It's a fact that she tries to manipulate the Warden, but there's no blackmail involved, and not being allowed to kill a woman for trying to convince you of something that would save your life isn't "plot armor". What's your point?

When she says that if you refuse her offer she leaves that is blackmail too.

[Aren]

 

 

 

Loghain takes it much better than you do, and the same information was withheld from him back when it would actually have made a huge difference in how he went about dealing with the Blight and completely changed the course of history, potentially saving thousands of lives. 

Loghain doesn't take it "better" it just happen that  he has a desire to die in battle for redemption,the sacrifice is not an issue for him for his newfound circumstances as a GW.

 

 

 

Your insistence that the Archdemon which you know next to nothing about is your personal nemesis and that Morrigan's desire to purify and preserve its power - which she can't and won't try to do without your help - gets in the way of some ridiculous ultra-macho agreement you think you have with the universe that killing it completely yourself is your destiny no matter what and anybody who even words an alternative that makes you feel a little stupid deserves to be struck down for their impudence and not following your script - is actually pretty funny.

 

Again though, not something I'd blame the developers for not enabling.

If the warden don't do the ritual she leave , that just shows she was using the warden and I can see the pc wanting to go after her for that. Sure, she had the right to leave as the others do, but she only inserted herself into my group of whom i was the leader to get that old god baby from the archdemon soul(the critter i wanted to kill from the start).

She doesn't get what she wants and she leaves,which mean that her joining to my group was done under false premises which is a form of betrayal..

[German Soldier]

Of course adults don't become liars.  Children lie too.  But it's when you realize that you aren't the center of the universe and other people have their own goals and needs that you are no longer terribly, terribly shocked that people will hide things from you.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what kind of parallel you are trying to forcibly drawn out here by trying to extensively justify deceptions operated with blackmails from false twould be friends with contrived generalization that equate all lies to the same degree.

 

A child lied to a friend that he had two candies when he had three...

yeah this lie is totally at the same level of Morrigan's deception.....

 

  And when Morrigan begins Flemeth's plan, she is neither the Warden's friend nor lover. 

She had a whole year at disposal to stop the deception but she did not even when the warden helped her against FLemeth even when the warden became her LI,instead what she did? Abandon them in the end.

 

  As for Leliana, lying to friends and lovers is pretty much a professional requirement.  Nothing could be more natural than not admitting the espionage, mayhem and murder she commited in Denerim, while she's in Ferelden and hanging out with Fereldens.

And Leliana's opening speech in Leliana's Song is all about her shaky relationship with the truth.  

Again with Leliana?@Aren summarized it already.

 

What companions did in their past or will do in their future is not the business of  my PC,however when they are in the warden group they need to remain loyal,the present time  is what it matters not past or future for the warden.

 

 The most common lies people tell to friends are the ones told out of fear that the truth would end or at least damage that friendship.  

If those people believe i'm unable to handle the truth than it mean two things:

 

1) They think I'm unable to handle the truth which imply they think i'm retarded

2)They have something to hide for their own benefits even at my expense which mean they were never friends o lover to begin with.

[ThomasBlaine]

 

The far fetched reuse of characters bound by optional contents impoverishes the world and the  inevitable consequence the  "small world syndrome"   leave a bitter taste  since apparently the same four cats jump across the continent  to end up hired into the ship of the big adventure who will "save the world" which is ultimately ridiculous, unconvincing,shallow and disappointing.

 

I'm likely to amicably part ways with the DA series from here on out I think BioWare is really going to have to settle on one of two choices:

 

1 - Continue with the current model of a new cast and a new protagonist/antagonist every game. (aka Elder scrolls)

2 - Embrace making true sequels that continue from the story of the previous installment with the same PC like in the Witcher

 

 

 At the moment, they won't commit one way or the other, and the results have been... poor, to say the least.

 

 

 

A: Thedas is a very small world, geographically. You can march an army on foot from one end of Ferelden to the other in two days, and it's very sparsely populated. Running into the same characters every once in a while isn't at all improbable.

 

B: This is much less of a concern when the game world is filled with some of the most likable and engaging characters in video game history. DAII didn't pull it off very well, but DAI did in my opinion.

 

When she says that if you refuse her offer she leaves that is blackmail too.

 

No it isn't. She's only in the party in the first place because Flemeth volunteered her, you have no right and no ability to force her to stay on if she doesn't want to. And if you guys have such a problem with her then her leaving isn't exactly very good blackmail material.

 

Loghain doesn't take it "better" it just happen that  he has a desire to die in battle for redemption,the sacrifice is not an issue for him for his newfound circumstances as a GW.

 

If the warden don't do the ritual she leave , that just shows she was using the warden and I can see the pc wanting to go after her for that. Sure, she had the right to leave as the others do, but she only inserted herself into my group of whom i was the leader to get that old god baby from the archdemon soul(the critter i wanted to kill from the start).

She doesn't get what she wants and she leaves,which mean that her joining to my group was done under false premises which is a form of betrayal..

 

His willingness to die in battle isn't relevant, what he finds out is tactical information that he should have been given years earlier which would have completely changed the course of events and potentially saved half his country from devastation, and which Duncan deliberately kept from him. That's a far greater betrayal than Morrigan having had an ulterior motive for having your back all year, one she tells you about when it becomes important and which you can shut down without a fuss or anyone getting hurt before it becomes any kind of problem. Does he fly off the handle and do something crazy? No. Because he's a sane adult.

 

I can imagine a Warden who was in love with her feeling abused and potentially wanting to get back at her, but nobody would kill her for proposing the Ritual on general principle. She hasn't done anything to hinder or hurt your quest, and has in fact helped you dramatically. "She doesn't particularly want to kill this thing that I want to kill, so she must die!" is insane. She makes no move to save the Archdemon if you're so set on killing it, there's absolutely no justification there.

[Domakir]

No it isn't. She's only in the party in the first place because Flemeth volunteered her, you have no right and no ability to force her to stay on if she doesn't want to. And if you guys have such a problem with her then her leaving isn't exactly very good blackmail material.

I think we have different meanings for 'blackmail'. She says she will only help you if you do what she wants or she leaves. You can decorate it however you want but you can't deny that's blackmail.
And no, I don't have a problem with her. Actually she is my favourite character by far in all the DA games but that doesn't mean I agree with everything she says or does.

[ThomasBlaine]

I think we have different meanings for 'blackmail'. She says she will only help you if you do what she wants or she leaves. You can decorate it however you want but you can't deny that's blackmail.
And no, I don't have a problem with her. Actually she is my favourite character by far in all the DA games but that doesn't mean I agree with everything she says or do.

 

 

If you had no hope of killing the Archdemon and Ferelden would fall without her then it would be, yes, but that's not the case. If you fought Flemeth then you've already demonstrated that you can kill a dragon without Morrigan's help, and taking her with you into Denerim would be putting her at incredible risk for no reward whatsoever. She wouldn't be celebrated as a hero if the Archdemon was slain, nobody is interested in giving her a monetary reward and it would actively raise her profile in the eyes of the Chantry.

 

You can't demand of her that she go through that with nothing to show for it, or call it blackmail if she refuses. That's emotional blackmail on your part.