None of what Morrigan does is blackmail, because she isn't offering the DR "in return for not revealing compromising or injurious information about that person."
If Morrigan said "bang me or I tell everybody that Wardens carry the darkspawn taint", that would be blackmail.
You can't demand of her that she go through that with nothing to show for it, or call it blackmail if she refuses. That's emotional blackmail on your part.
How is that blackmail? The warden never forced her to stay. She is free to go if she wants but she doesn't because she needs to use you or Alistair/Loghain for her goal. If she says she doesn't want to be there I'd let her go even if romanced and I'd certanly wouldn't tell her 'if you love me you'd stay/you'd do this' or 'if you don't do this for me I won't do this for you/I'll do this thing you don't want me to do' which is exactly what Morrigan is doing. But sure, the warden is using blackmail and Morrigan isn't... Alright then.
How is that blackmail? The warden never forced her to stay. She is free to go if she wants but she doesn't because she needs to use you or Alistair/Loghain for her goal. If she says she doesn't want to be there I'd let her go even if romanced and I'd certanly wouldn't tell her 'if you love me you'd stay/you'd do this' or 'if you don't do this for me I won't do this for you/I'll do this thing you don't want me to do' which is exactly what Morrigan is doing. But sure, the warden is using blackmail and Morrigan isn't... Alright then.
I said that demanding her to stay and fight and risk her life for no reward just because not doing so would indicate that she didn't care about you would be emotional blackmail. Since it's not an option in the game, it was more a point about your argument than about your characters' actual behavior. I should have phrased it more clearly as a hypothetical.
"If you don't do this then I literally won't have any reason to stay and potentially die for people who hate and fear me" isn't blackmail, that's a values choice she has every right to make. "If you don't do this thing then you're proving that you don't care about me" would be emotional blackmail, it'd be you trying to get something for nothing by telling her that she should feel guilty if she didn't give it to you. That's all I said. Accusing her of blackmail to get her to stay would be the same, for that matter. It would in fact be even more manipulative and under-handed than anything she says to get you to agree to either the Ritual or killing Flemeth. Not that it'd work.
Her decision not to fight for you if you don't agree with her could fall under an old meaning of the word 'blackmail' that specifically concerned raiders demanding what was essentially protection money in exchange for actual protection from other freebooters in northern Europe, but only if the Warden was perceived to be helpless without her. S/he isn't.
I said that demanding her to stay and fight and risk her life for no reward just because not doing so would indicate that she didn't care about you would be emotional blackmail. Since it's not an option in the game, it was more a point about your argument than about your characters' actual behavior. I should have phrased it more clearly as a hypothetical.
"If you don't do this then I literally won't have any reason to stay and potentially die for people who hate and fear me" isn't blackmail, that's a values choice she has every right to make. "If you don't do this thing then you're proving that you don't care about me" would be emotional blackmail, it'd be you trying to get something for nothing by telling her that she should feel guilty if she didn't give it to you. That's all I said. Accusing her of blackmail to get her to stay would be the same, for that matter. It would in fact be even more manipulative and under-handed than anything she says to get you to agree to either the Ritual or killing Flemeth. Not that it'd work.
A: Thedas is a very small world, geographically. You can march an army on foot from one end of Ferelden to the other in two days, and it's very sparsely populated. Running into the same characters every once in a while isn't at all improbable.
B: This is much less of a concern when the game world is filled with some of the most likable and engaging characters in video game history. DAII didn't pull it off very well, but DAI did in my opinion.
I can imagine a Warden who was in love with her feeling abused and potentially wanting to get back at her, but nobody would kill her for proposing the Ritual on general principle. She hasn't done anything to hinder or hurt your quest, and has in fact helped you dramatically. "She doesn't particularly want to kill this thing that I want to kill, so she must die!" is insane. She makes no move to save the Archdemon if you're so set on killing it, there's absolutely no justification there.
B)A character tend to sour players if is constantly reused for no strong reasons.Bioware writers are able to create engaging characters they don't need to reuse the old ones the reuse of characters is not good for the world of Thedas.
Yes! I hate, hate HATE all the excessive cameos and returning characters in Dragon Age. In the Mass Effect series, returning characters made sense because you had the same protagonist so obviously the characters were connected. In DA each game is set in a different country with a different circumstance and a different hero so why the heck are old characters and companions being shoved in everywhere? It makes the world seem tiny and it takes away space for new and interesting characters to be created rather than sticking in a bunch of fan favorites for fanservice. Ugh
'' Fare you well, my love, should you live past the morrow I trust it will only be with regret''
Morrigan can say whatever she wantI regret nothing.
Neither do I. I'm pretty satisfied with the result and I was too annoyed to even care about what she said.
Yes! I hate, hate HATE all the excessive cameos and returning characters in Dragon Age. In the Mass Effect series, returning characters made sense because you had the same protagonist so obviously the characters were connected. In DA each game is set in a different country with a different circumstance and a different hero so why the heck are old characters and companions being shoved in everywhere? It makes the world seem tiny and it takes away space for new and interesting characters to be created rather than sticking in a bunch of fan favorites for fanservice. Ugh
Nope. Both Haven and Skyhold are in Fereldan albeit on the Orlesian border. And Kirkwall also basically borders Fereldan. We really haven't seen all that much of Thedas.
Nope. Both Haven and Skyhold are in Fereldan albeit on the Orlesian border. And Kirkwall also basically borders Fereldan. We really haven't seen all that much of Thedas.
This argument is rather weak
DAI is not only Skyhold and Haven these are just two locations.....and Kirkwall is in the Free marches
Neither do I. I'm pretty satisfied with the result and I was too annoyed to even care about what she said.
I've always had an issue with realizing that Flemeth and Morrigan planned it all from the start. I could never get over the feeling of being manipulated.No one still knows exactly why they wanted the soul of an Old God and as far as I was concerned, I felt it best to keep it from them and the other elf.
I've always had an issue with realizing that Flemeth and Morrigan planned it all from the start. I could never get over the feeling of being manipulated.No one still knows exactly why they wanted the soul of an Old God and as far as I was concerned, I felt it best to keep it from them and the other elf.
This argument is rather weak
DAI is not only Skyhold and Haven these are just two locations.....and Kirkwall is in the Free marches
No, it isn't only Skyhold and Haven. Which doesn't change the fact that claiming DAI is in a different country from DAO is wrong. DAI visits one other country than the one in DAO and that country is Ferelden's next door neighbour. Half of DAI is in the same country we were in in Origins. Your first base of operations is actually one of the locations in Origins, albeit redecorated. There is nothing odd about running into Origins characters in Inquisition. And the Free Marches aren't far away either. That's exactly why you are playing Ferelden refugees in a town packed with other Ferelden refugees. With the frontier to Orlais closed off, the Marches were the next closest place. Actually closer if you were in the north east.
No, it isn't only Skyhold and Haven. Which doesn't change the fact that claiming DAI is in a different country from DAO is wrong. DAI visits one other country than the one in DAO and that country is Ferelden's next door neighbour. More than half of DAI is in the same country we were in in Origins. Your first base of operations is actually one of the locations in Origins, albeit redecorated. There is nothing odd about running into Origins characters in Inquisition. And the Free Marches aren't far away either. That's exactly why you are playing Ferelden refugees in a town packed with other Ferelden refugees. With the frontier to Orlais closed off, the Marches were the next closest place. Actually closer if you were in the north east.
How convenient that (Varric,Alistair,Loghain,Morrigan,Cullen,Leliana,Zevran)all these returning characters were in the neighborhood country and some of them i met even in Kirkwall..
I don't visit that section and i would never suggested it to the Op because is mostly filled with biased Morrigan mancers active there since the release of the game from whom Morrigan is this uber perfect character.
If you referenced to the story and campaign section where DA characters are being discussed I must say through my own experience on the Bsn that those kind of sections are not good to impartially analyze a character because are mostly built through the lens of their fans as such they tend to be biased a lot.I visited pretty much all those sections from DAO to DAI and i noticed always the same vibe,all fans and no one to make criticisms.
It's not a matter of morality but the fact that you can't really understand a DA character from the story campaign section of the forum because those sections are not meant to criticize the characters but to praise them and they tend to become stale after a while.
DAO was released 7 years ago and the only users present in the story/campaign of this game are mostly super-fans of those characters and will defend them to death,add to this that new users can't comment there and you have the painting of the situation.
There the opinions are pretty much one sided and don't fit a dynamic Pov that should involve the subject (the player) rather than only the character Pov(Zevran,Morrigan,Alistair ecc..)
From the Thread dedicated to them they came across as pure perfection.
That makes me really laugh. I remember when I started with my Morrigan research last year. Almost every thread I found was a criticism one. Even in the Morri-Research-Thread on bsn it’s nearly impossible to read 20 sites without having someone criticizing her. And you find there not much fancying as I thought. My posts in April were probably the gushiest one since years.
And what do you mean with a discussion? Everyone should agree with your view or how I have to understand your meaning of a discussion?
yes but i made a topic that hinted that the old gods may be tyrannical in nature since they are the only critters that become evil when tainted, everyone else just become sick.
Which is a clear form of falsehood that you are trying to sell to yourself in order to see things as for what they are not so that it could justify the preservation of the old god via the DR in your mind,sorry but your bias isn't something that does have to concern my logical process of thinking.1) Ghouls are not evil but sick beings(from animals to persons) drove crazy by the taint as several codexs of DAO said, they are suffering from it which enhance their pain and aggressivity.2)The archdemons which obviously are not ghouls(in fact they are not classified as ghouls) are malevolent in nature and their evilness is demonstrated through the words they spoke into that Dlc when Urthemiel had the desire to kill and hurt people ,they are the only beings that become evil when infected which implicate that their inner original nature as old gods is sinister.
Can u tell me a source for you statement regarding to the nature of the old gods? Maybe if something bigger (and mental more mighty) get corrupted/infected, it have another outcome than a corrupted low creature, hm? And what’s your proof that Urthemiel spokes in the Darkspawn Chronicles and not the AD?
I'm not sure if that is healthy for a romance but they say that there is no better way to touch a girl's heart than with a knife through their chest.I bet she understood the lesson wth the kitchen knife.
Wonderful post, it shows where Morri critics mental come from.
Its not that hard. You don't have to kiss her ass and condone her bad choices to successfully romance Morrigan. My favorite was taking her on the quest to the Anvil of the Void....
On a side note, a contradiction that NO ONE seems to have ever picked up on...
Spoiler
Great! I never noticed that. I agree with your interpretation. A wonderful opportunity to tease her with in a fan-fic ;-)
I made Alistair king then he decided to sacrifice himself for the warden is called Warden-Commander ending which imply that your prediction particularly your "obviously" is not true.
That makes me the 2. time laugh. Can u provide me with a screenshot or something else of this decision Alistair made? In my version of the game I never noticed that Alistair makes any decision for himself besides the one if u side with Loghain at the LM.
I think her level of misleading is the most extreme though. And kind of personal, if you're Dalish. She asks you to kill one of their gods... and even if she didn't know that, she apparently knows a lot more about the Dalish than she lets on. So you can add that to her info about the blight.
Do we (or even the devs) really know at this time that Flemeth is also Asha-bellanar not to speak of Mythal? I think the first mention of this name and his function is in WH (DA2 in sight!).
The thread starter seems to know a great deal about the game and should be aware of the DAO-Wiki. There u find for every companion an approval list. But he prefers to “ask” the forum. So I assume the true intention of this thread is a polemic one. But okay, I will play with you a little bit.
In the whole thread one thing repeat again and again. The critics are always using post DAO-Knowledge against Morrigan, ignoring constantly game facts and the existence of something called causal chain. Also they try to construct every little thing to a big accusation to justify their critics or murdering M. The positive things (like curing the blight) are never mentioned. If you dislike her so much, it’s not hard and takes little time to disband her at Lothering/Redcliffe. And for DAI you have my full pity because you must bear her a whole quest. But my system allows me to skip cinematics or dialogues I don’t like. Maybe you have similar functions on your system.
So let us analyze her “evil” actions.
leaving Redcliffe alone:
Your interpretation: M. is evil, because she does not want to waste time with rescuing a village.
My interpretation: Her comment is only a mixture of lack of empathy, annoyance and childish stubbornness. She needs a short 4 eyed explanation (just imagine u did it).
Elves in Denerim:
Your interpretation: M. is evil, because she suggests to sacrifice doomed elves for higher sakes.
My interpretation: She even admits that her proposal is rather crude and deserves a sharp glance. But her motivation is to increase the chances against the AD, yes yes because she wants the OGB, but that’s not the only outcome when the AD dies. The blight ends also.
Dark Ritual/Leaving the Warden:
Your interpretation: M. is the most evil in the world, because she deceived (probably the most (ab)used word in this thread) the PC by not telling the full truth about her presence. The outcome (a surviving GW) doesn’t justify the risk of a “reborn” OG (even with the state of knowledge from 2016).
Her immediate leaving is a sign that Morri never really cared for the PC even in friendship or romance status. One of the critics told a heartbreaking story, in which M. leaves the friendly PC in the darkest moment (my tears dry yet). I don’t know the end of this story, but probably the Darkspawn won, because one of 9 companions left the GW in the eve of the battle and the gathered armies couldn’t do anything without General Morrigan.
My interpretation: There is no one, who says that this scene is well done (especially for a romance warden!). Too many questions unanswered. Like Illegitimus said it was obviously that M. hides something all the time. Also a LI/friendly (empathic) Warden could be realize in this moment, that the conditioning by Flemeth is very strong. She even admits during the Dog scene in the camp, that she is manipulative. Btw how is the opinion of the critics to the Dog/Morri relationship? The same dog who reacts hostile towards evil creatures (f.e. Sophia Dryden). Shouldn’t he growl every time he interacts with Morrigan? Instead Dog obviously likes her really and get her food. But back to the DR. Like I said in the Morri-Thread, you have only few information to do the ritual or not. If you believe the outcome is a “Darkspawn-OGB-Child” than your decision is clear. But I have my doubts that Flemeth or Morrigan have an interest in this. Her reaction when she leaves can be explained with disappointment that her plan failed and again childish stubbornness (she doesn’t get what she wants so she leaves). But… she regrets it at the end of WH with Orlesian GW. I wonder what also she means with her “Sorry for everything”. I hope not, that the GW died (it was his/her decision not to trust M.). IMO it can only be the “leaving in the eve” and “stole the Daelish book” thing. Btw the apology naturally does not flow in the evaluation of Morri by the critics.
OGB
Your interpretation: Old gods are evil because the chantry claims it and they are supposed to be dangerous dragons.
My interpretation: Old Gods are standing for nature religions like in RL. I dislike every sort of organized Religions, so why not trying something new or old in this case ;-)
Stolen Dalish book
Your interpretation: M. is evil, because she stolen a book from the daelish. Best reason to kill her!
My interpretation: That’s a kind of a “sly fox” action. She returns the book and everything is fine.
Well of Sorrows
Your interpretation: M. is still evil, because she lust for power.
My interpretation: Morrigan is still a product of Flemeth. Even a LI Warden with Kieran can’t break this conditioning, what the WoS scene proofs (bioware lore). M. had never a pure agenda for herself. She just modify (if any) Flemeths. So her desire for power is still there (bioware lore). But if u let her drink from it, the punishment comes immediately (bound to Mythal/Flemeth).
Here my thoughts to the Flemeth/Morrigan relationship. The end of the meeting in the fade shows very good the nature of their relationships. (Maybe you guys aren’t aware that this scene exists because it requires an OGB Kieran. As I learned in this thread, World States with OGB are in an absolute minority. Certainly the user who claimed that, can provide us with a statistic. Anyway check YT if you don’t know the scene). Morrigan still believes that F. wants to possess her body. She even offers it her, if Kieran stays unharmed. After Morrigans words “…I will never be the mother you were to me” Flemeths expression speaks associations. I believe that Flemeth felt in this moment regret. Maybe she recognized, that she overacted with the “survival of the fittest” and “love is weakness” things during M. uprising. This scene also disprove your accusations, that M. lies in the banters with Leli regarding her uprising and the possessing matters during DAO. Or do you really think M. lies even in this situation where she is obviously desperate and fearing to lose her son? Flemeths “mistake” in DAO (designed and intended by the devs) is not to explain Morrigan or the Warden, what she is planning or not. If you speak with F. during the Killing-Quest you get no serious answer.
Now we summarize M. evil deeds. Do we have any dead or harmed people? No we haven’t (I suppose no one leaves RC alone or sacrificed the elves). If we trust M. and do the Ritual we safe one life more, if not a dead more. You say M. is evil because she proposes evil things, but this has no judicially consequence. Normally I don’t like comparison between Companions but for justice reason it is necessary. Sten, Leli, Zev and Isabella did things, which clearly would have judicially consequence (Flemeths and Morrigans self-defense against Templers is a special case). I ask you, where are the threads about this Companions and the question how to justify romancing them or even let them alive?
My general impression of the critics is that they have a great problem with an independent NPC, who has his “own” agenda and dares to manipulate people like the PC do (yes the by far biggest manipulator is the PC, I recall the Alist/Leli hardening stuff!). Maybe you think, you’ re a kind of Superhero and ruler of the world during playing DA and everyone should kiss your feet. In another thread I read about assumptions that Gaxkang is referring with his remark to the real PC and not to fade spirits. A curious comment, but it shows again the mental of the critics. If you see yourself in that way, it doesn’t wonder me anymore, why a GW who survived with sacrifice of Loghain or Alistair (both include definitely amoral or at least questionable decisions) should murder Morrigan in WH.
Also the critics remind me on DAI-Alistair. If he and a female LI HoF survived because of the DR, everything is ok. If a male warden survives it with Morri-LI, Alistair says something of dark paths the HoF is walking on (I don’t know if that happen with a Leli-LI too). That’s what I call classical hypocrisy and double standards.
After this thread I understand how the propaganda worked years ago to claim the US as the “best” ending of DAO. I don’t know the effects of this propaganda, I read about it only in the Morri-Thread. But the intention of this propaganda was apparently to discredit Morrigan and the DR.
At last, why you all hang up in the DA-Section, when so annoyed from DA and the returning NPC? Complaining for complaining sakes?
I would like to post the most touching Morrigan romance in DAO with the best male warden ever created.
I'm dying of laughing...ahahaha
How convenient that (Varric,Alistair,Loghain,Morrigan,Cullen,Leliana,Zevran)all these returning characters were in the neighborhood country and some of them i met even in Kirkwall..
Where would you expect them to be, Varric aside?
I am pleased to have brought you laugh. And I thought you are only capable to hate 
Neither do I. I'm pretty satisfied with the result and I was too annoyed to even care about what she said.
oh i envy your serenity because i didn't liked when she called me a fool.
oh i envy your serenity because i didn't liked when she called me a fool.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
So according to Shakespeare,her notion of who is the fool and who is the wise is inverted.
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