So you made a topic based on a false premise? Becoming sick with the taint is what happens before you become a ghoul. The "Archdemons" are basically super-ghouls.
False premises?Archdemons are not ghouls and their way of thinking is inherently malevolent in so far the taint had this effect only on them the old gods of tevinter.
That is not true. Ghouls are malevolent and this malevolence does come from the taint. And archdemons are if not ghouls something very like a ghoul.
That is not true. Ghouls are malevolent and this malevolence does come from the taint. And archdemons are if not ghouls something very like a ghoul.
Which is a clear form of falsehood that you are trying to sell to yourself in order to see things as for what they are not so that it could justify the preservation of the old god via the DR in your mind,sorry but your bias isn't something that does have to concern my logical process of thinking.1) Ghouls are not evil but sick beings(from animals to persons) drove crazy by the taint as several codexs of DAO said, they are suffering from it which enhance their pain and aggressivity..
Ghouls are evil (where "evil" means hostile by nature to us humans). They don't attack randomly and blindly. They attack the uninfected and only the uninfected in planned ways. They also provide the Darkspawn with their smiths.
The only way I could get my Warden to romance Morrigan was through the "apathetic Morrigan" mod. It prevents your Morrigan approval rating from going through the floor every time you do a good deed. Otherwise, if you don't want to play a jerkish Warden, you have to provide her with an endless supply of "thoughtful gifts"! That said, Morrigan can be sweet when you finally get on her good side. It's also hard not to empathize with her once you hear her whole story. But then again, this is the woman who thinks sacrificing the lives of captured city elves to get a powerful amulet is a good idea...
Leliana may seem a little crazy, but you don't have to do anything evil to win her favor; she likes good guys.
I recommend a thread where people discuss Morrigan and her character.
In the DAO sections that pertains characters, relatively new users like me are not enabled to comment for some reason thus i also don't see the logic to visit those sections if i cannot made a post,however i saw and read comments on those topics like Morrigan/ALsitair/Zevran and there wasn't any criticism just fans love.
It's really easy to romance Morrigan even if your HoF is a dudley-do-right but provided he is not a mindless tool for some party (Circle, Chantry, etc), and I don't agree with her being evil or manipulative, she starts like that but then she really opens herself to the warden and in the end she truly loves him. That can clearly be seen in her dialogues Witch Hunt DLC and in her dialogues with the Inquisitor if you import that worldstate.
Actually, I usually play both my warden and Inqui as "good guys but with agnostic/atheist ideas", so I find Morrigan romance way more interesting and bareable than Leliana's.
If you referenced to the story and campaign section where DA characters are being discussed I must say through my own experience on the Bsn that those kind of sections are not good to impartially analyze a character because are mostly built through the lens of their fans as such they tend to be biased a lot.I visited pretty much all those sections from DAO to DAI and i noticed always the same vibe,all fans and no one to make criticisms.The general discussion section actually is the only one were criticisms can be expressed in a functional way.In the DAO sections that pertains characters, relatively new users like me are not enabled to comment for some reason thus i also don't see the logic to visit those sections if i cannot made a post,however i saw and read comments on those topics like Morrigan/ALsitair/Zevran and there wasn't any criticism just fans love.
Thanks to Patricia08 who made several topics for the characters i saw sections which were less biased(which i was interested especially for Solas) the one of morrigan for what i remember was burned by moderators(i don't know way) it was mostly filled with more impartial view points and criticism and nobody was willing to condone those sadistic approvals or advices she made in DAO.
Do you think there is a character in the whole DA-series, which has acceptable morality?
Do you think there is a character in the whole DA-series, which has acceptable morality?
It's not a matter of morality but the fact that you can't really understand a DA character from the story campaign section of the forum because those sections are not meant to criticize the characters but to praise them and they tend to become stale after a while.
DAO was released 7 years ago and the only users present in the story/campaign of this game are mostly super-fans of those characters and will defend them to death,add to this that new users can't comment there and you have the painting of the situation.
There the opinions are pretty much one sided and don't fit a dynamic Pov that should involve the subject (the player) rather than only the character Pov(Zevran,Morrigan,Alistair ecc..)
From the Thread dedicated to them they came across as pure perfection.
It's not a matter of morality but the fact that you can't really understand a DA character from the story campaign section of the forum because those sections are not meant to criticize the characters but to praise them and they tend to become stale after a while.
DAO was released 7 years ago and the only users present in the story/campaign of this game are mostly super-fans of those characters and will defend them to death,add to this that new users can't comment there and you have the painting of the situation.
There the opinions are pretty much one sided and don't fit a dynamic Pov that should involve the subject (the player) rather than only the character Pov(Zevran,Morrigan,Alistair ecc..)
From the Thread dedicated to them they came across as pure perfection.
oh, I see, okay.
And if you got the character to 'friend'--let alone 'love'--it's very evident she doesn't wish you dead, just that she's not standing around to watch you do 'something foolish'.
Leaving because she doesn't want to see me die just ... no....
She made the Warden's chances for survival less than what they would have been had she helped, which proves the Warden's survival was never her goal. Rather the old god's survival was.
Leaving because she doesn't want to see me die just ... no....
She made the Warden's chances for survival less than what they would have been had she helped, which proves the Warden's survival was never her goal. Rather the old god's survival was.
Leaving because she doesn't want to see me die just ... no....
She made the Warden's chances for survival less than what they would have been had she helped, which proves the Warden's survival was never her goal. Rather the old god's survival was.
Uhm. No. In her eyes you've already chosen to die, making that a foregone conclusion, and if her leaving means you might possibly die an hour or two earlier than you otherwise would have then she'd rather not stick around just to see it happen, especially now that she doesn't have a personal stake in the battle anymore. Your survival wasn't necessarily her prime objective, but leaving isn't hypocritical. Either the two of you aren't that close, or you're asking her to fight and risk her own life entirely to watch her first dear friend and/or lover die. As far as reasons not to participate in a battle go, both are pretty understandable.
I'm not so sure - she did things that did not further her own goals, for the benefit of the warden.
Which are these things?
You mean helping the warden in gathering power and allies so that they could have been able to reach the Archdemon that would have also helped Morrigan's goal?
Uhm. No. In her eyes you've already chosen to die, making that a foregone conclusion, and if her leaving means you might possibly die an hour or two earlier than you otherwise would have then she'd rather not stick around just to see it happen, especially now that she doesn't have a personal stake in the battle anymore. Your survival wasn't necessarily her prime objective, but leaving isn't hypocritical. Either the two of you aren't that close, or you're asking her to fight and risk her own life entirely to watch her first dear friend and/or lover die. As far as reasons not to participate in a battle go, both are pretty understandable.
Uhm No.
In Reclieffe there are three wardens+potentially king Alistair ( four wardens) so unless she has the power to foresight the future she couldn't have predicted Riordan's death or anything else in the battle.
As others said for the romanced warden she even told them to live at the best of their regrets which are certainly words that demonstrate a lack of caring not the opposite.
Its not that hard. You don't have to kiss her ass and condone her bad choices to successfully romance Morrigan. My favorite was taking her on the quest to the Anvil of the Void....
On a side note, a contradiction that NO ONE seems to have ever picked up on...
... the Warden can say to Morrigan, how would you like to be a Golem...? A great line, and her response is even more satisfying... especially knowing later when the Warden invites her to his tent...
Morrigan respects strength, you don't have to agree with her to romance her. The disagreements usually result in marginal approval loss.
Yes, to put it simply. I could also point out that she actually doesn't do anything against the warden. Right at the start she leads you directly to the scrolls - even at the end of the game the DR is a choice for the warden: she lays out all the consequences...Which are these things?
You mean helping the warden in gathering power and allies so that they could have been able to reach the Archdemon that would have also helped Morrigan's goal?
Yes, to put it simply. I could also point out that she actually doesn't do anything against the warden.
In Reclieffe there are three wardens+potentially king Alistair ( four wardens) so unless she has the power to foresight the future she couldn't have predicted Riordan's death or anything else in the battle.
As others said for the romanced warden she even told them to live at the best of their regrets which are certainly words that demonstrate a lack of caring not the opposite.
She probably doesn't expect Alistair, Riordan or Loghain to be able to kill the Archdemon, seeing as she doesn't have any particular respect for any of them.
And again, she isn't an automaton. Doing something that marginally lessens your survival odds from near-zero to even-nearer-zero isn't necessarily the same as not caring. You don't analyze people's motivations by assuming that they're being entirely rational about them. Alistair abandoning the Wardens doesn't mean he doesn't care about the order either.
In Reclieffe there are three wardens+potentially king Alistair ( four wardens) so unless she has the power to foresight the future she couldn't have predicted Riordan's death or anything else in the battle.
Sure she could. I predict things all the the time without any such power. It's not hard to predict Riordan's death. The man's a wreck and his plan of battle doesn't exactly give him the support of the most elite troops. If you made Alistair king, which is the most likely turn of events at the landsmeet then obviously you are going to take the final blow if you take him into combat. If you take Loghain, she has to assume that you not just will choose to let him take the blow but that he'll choose to sacrifice himself given that opportunity and that he won't die before he gets the chance. A Morrigan who loves you despite you romancing her as a good guy won't expect that at all. Given that dialog has to be written to cover the most likely angles including the ones where you never romanced Morrigan…it's fair to decide that a romanced Morrigan believes firmly that the Warden she loves and admires is condemning himself to certain death and obliteration of the soul even though she's wrong about it being so certain.
And that's ignoring the fact that while Morrigan can't predict the future in a supernatural way, she's acting on a plan created by someone who could supernaturally predict the future within certain parameters, and who would cheerfully deceive Morrigan if that was what it took to get Morrigan to do what Flemeth wants.
Well a lot of the time Morrigan is just sort of reacting negatively to what she sees as the "systemic good" not necessarily an "actual good"
I mean, anyone can say, this is good or that should happen, but then is it? I mean, maybe it isn't right.
So I think a starting point is to say a lot of her personality isn't in opposition to like "doing good," it's in opposition to doing it without thinking of the overall consequences.
I'm impressed at how many defend Morrigan. It's a tribute both to the voice actress and the writers who brought her to life as a complex character who is not easily characterized as good or bad. In the end, I would have to characterize her at best as "amoral." Her intent from the very beginning is to the Dark Ritual to obtain the soul of an Old God. She tolerates a do-gooder Warden who always ignores the kind of nasty advice she gives: let Redcliffe be overrun by undead, desecrate the Sacred Ashes, preserve the Anvil and side with mad Branka, etc. The bottom line is her objective differs with that of the Warden. The Warden wants to save Ferelden and Thedas from being overrun by Dark Spawn. Morrigan couldn't care less about this objective; if you don't agree to the DR, she abandons you to the AD and the Dark Spawn. Let Thedas be damned...
I'm impressed at how many defend Morrigan. It's a tribute both to the voice actress and the writers who brought her to life as a complex character who is not easily characterized as good or bad. In the end, I would have to characterize her at best as "amoral." Her intent from the very beginning is to the Dark Ritual to obtain the soul of an Old God. She tolerates a do-gooder Warden who always ignores the kind of nasty advice she gives: let Redcliffe be overrun by undead, desecrate the Sacred Ashes, preserve the Anvil and side with mad Branka, etc. The bottom line is her objective differs with that of the Warden. The Warden wants to save Ferelden and Thedas from being overrun by Dark Spawn. Morrigan couldn't care less about this objective; if you don't agree to the DR, she abandons you to the AD and the Dark Spawn. Let Thedas be damned...
I agree she is interested only in the DR... in the beginning.
I disagree that she tolerates a do gooder, as there are any number of occasions where she disapproves, I forget the negative number but there is a point where she will leave the party.... she still will show up at Redcliffe to purpose the DR, but its wrong to think she will just mindlessly follow a Warden for the DR.
Redcliffe... so does Sten... and quite frankly, so WOULD Duncan if he were still alive, defeating the Blight is their goal, saving a little village is not. Warden's have destroyed towns in the name of defeating the blight. If the Warden or Allistair were killed during the defense of Redcliffe, their chances of defeating the blight are seriously reduced: AKA the do gooder choice, but not the logical choice from a Grey Warden POV (yes, I always saved RC).
She doesn't demand the desecration of the ashes, she thinks it a waste of their resources to be wasting time and she is not a follower of the Maker... they're not sacred to her, why is that so unusual... Not everyone has to believe the ashes are so sacred, especially someone who wasn't brough up revering Andraste.
Again, she is looking at it from a POV of defeating the blight (and yes, admittedly achieving the DR), but again, Duncan and most other GW would choose having an army an golems to defeat the AD. Her choice is not as evil as you would like to make it out as, at least in the DA world. There are TWO Grey Wardens in Ferelden... and a Blight, saving every damsel, dude and little village in the world is not their job.
Disagree. Her objective is the SAME as the Warden's... her motivation is different. If the DR is her sole objective.... DEFEATING the blight HAS HAS HAS HAS to be her goal. You can't have a DR if the Blight continues. What allegiance does she OWE to Ferelden??? She's an apostate... a vast majority of its citizens would (and probably have) shun her and many would help the Templar's hunt her down and kill her. From her POV, why should she respond any differently.
She probably doesn't expect Alistair, Riordan or Loghain to be able to kill the Archdemon, seeing as she doesn't have any particular respect for any of them.
Doing something that marginally lessens your survival odds from near-zero to even-nearer-zero isn't necessarily the same as not caring. You don't analyze people's motivations by assuming that they're being entirely rational about them.
I'm not arguing about the degree of difference she could have made in battle but just pointing out that if she cared for the warden she would have tried to defend them even without the ritual,she did not which prove that her goal was only the old god survival.
Alistair abandoning the Wardens doesn't mean he doesn't care about the order either.
Alistair does not care for the order anymore in DAII if he was exiled.
Sure she could. I predict things all the the time without any such power. It's not hard to predict Riordan's death.
Sure if you use metagame or you are reasoning that he will die for the sacrifice.
If you made Alistair king, which is the most likely turn of events at the landsmeet then obviously you are going to take the final blow if you take him into combat.
Are you discussing only from the perspective of your own restricted scenario then pretending to see that outcome as the most likely to happen?
Who told you that your famous foresight?
-If i made Alistair king but don't care about his survival your argument is no sense.
-If i didn't made Alistair king your argument is no sense.
If you take Loghain, she has to assume that you not just will choose to let him take the blow but that he'll choose to sacrifice himself given that opportunity and that he won't die before he gets the chance.
Which is in fact the ending called Redemption a plausible scenario.
And that's ignoring the fact that while Morrigan can't predict the future in a supernatural way, she's acting on a plan created by someone who could supernaturally predict the future within certain parameters, and who would cheerfully deceive Morrigan if that was what it took to get Morrigan to do what Flemeth wants.
Morrigan can't foresee the future and certainly i don't recall in any instances that Flemeth said the warden will die,that's just your headcanon.
Redcliffe... so does Sten... and quite frankly, so WOULD Duncan if he were still alive, defeating the Blight is their goal, saving a little village is not. Warden's have destroyed towns in the name of defeating the blight. If the Warden or Allistair were killed during the defense of Redcliffe, their chances of defeating the blight are seriously reduced: AKA the do gooder choice, but not the logical choice from a Grey Warden POV (yes, I always saved RC).
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