295 réponses à ce sujet

[Illegitimus]

 

How can you hope to gather allies against the Blight (which is what DAO is about; even Flemeth asks for Morrigan to help the Wardens in their struggle) if you don't help them first? Or at least, helping them maximizes the support you get from them. So, her reactions here show rather a lack of intelligence, wisdom and foresight on her part

You go to Redcliffe to ask the Arl Eamon's help (because he is presumably the only political figure capable of standing up to Loghain and rallying Ferelden's nobles). Arriving there, the villagers tell you that there's something wrong with the castle and that undead attack the village at night. We don't know whether Arl Eamon is actually dead, so the Wardens must investigate the castle for a definite answer (even game-wise you can't skip Arl Eamon, if I recall correctly).

 

So, it is necessary to deal with whatever threat lies in that castle, which seems to be threatening the village as well. I can't find adequate reasons to not defend Redcliffe while you are at it. Are you going waste time? You are going to deal with the threat anyway. Does it matter if you do it now, or tomorrow after it's attacked the village and probably stripped you of these:

Able bodied warriors, morale, resources, good reputation (Loghain vilified the Wardens).

 

To me it does matter, even more so because they are advantages you could obtain without actually diverting your course.

PLus if you don't defend Reclieffe he villagers will become zombie and will attack you in the cstle alongside the undeads.

 

 

 

Yeah but that's Morrigan being stupid.  Hardly the only time.  She believes that if the villagers need help pulling their act together they won't be useful.  She's just wrong.

[German Soldier]

 If you made Alistair king, which is the most likely turn of events at the landsmeet then obviously you are going to take the final blow if you take him into combat. 

I made Alistair king then he decided to sacrifice himself for the warden is called Warden-Commander ending which imply that your prediction particularly your "obviously"  is not  true.

[ThomasBlaine]

 

She doesn't respect three grey wardens  but that's hardly an argument that could be used to prove that they are too weak to absolve their task.

 

It's a perfect argument for her thinking  that they're too weak to complete the task, which is the crux of the matter. Morrigan only values and respects people as they earn it of her. None of the three do, although I think she and Loghain could become pretty friendly if they had more time traveling together.

 

 

I'm not arguing about the degree of difference she could have made in battle but just pointing out that if she cared for the warden she would have tried to defend them even without the ritual,she did not which prove that her goal was only the old god survival.

 

I'm not either, I'm saying that her leaving doesn't "prove" that the Dark Ritual is all she cares about. Ever heard of emotions? They tend to be complex. I'm no woman, but I'd say part of why she leaves is sheer hurt and spite over having been rejected sexually, and the Warden not trusting her enough to entertain what she views as a noble and worthwhile project to preserve some of the great magic left in the world. Part of it is probably not wanting to see you die. Part of it is simple logic. Why risk her life for someone who intends to die in any case? Ridiculous, Morrigan, in her own mind, is certainly above such self-destructive fancies.

 

See? Complex and emotional reactions, all of which tell her to flee the Warden's presence and none of which "prove" that she doesn't care about their well-being. People aren't rational about their feelings. Your notion of her staying to defend you to your dying breath no matter the circumstances or your decision to embrace that death instead of avoiding it is cute, but that's not how, you know, people  work.

 

Alistair does not care for the order anymore in DAII if he was exiled.

 

Sure he does, he's just being a baby about it. Drinking and acting out instead of dealing with his bitterness and feelings of betrayal and, again, rejection. If he didn't care about the Wardens then he'd have gotten on with his life instead of wallowing in self-pity. Complex emotional reactions.

[Lunatica]

It's a perfect argument for her thinking  that they're too weak to complete the task, which is the crux of the matter. Morrigan only values and respects people as they earn it of her. None of the three do, although I think she and Loghain could become pretty friendly if they had more time traveling together.

 

 

 

If a thought is not developed through  reasonable and analytic premises then it is not valuable for  strategic implementations.

Being or not being of her taste is not indicative of anything and has nothing to do with a rational comprehension of the companions skills.

Alistair,Loghain and Riordan are skilled fighters whether she likes it or not.

 

 

 

I'm not either, I'm saying that her leaving doesn't "prove" that the Dark Ritual is all she cares about. Ever heard of emotions? They tend to be complex. I'm no woman, but I'd say part of why she leaves is sheer hurt and spite over having been rejected sexually, and the Warden not trusting her enough to entertain what she views as a noble and worthwhile project to preserve some of the great magic left in the world. Part of it is probably not wanting to see you die. Part of it is simple logic. Why risk her life for someone who intends to die in any case? Ridiculous, Morrigan, in her own mind, is certainly above such self-destructive fancies.

 

 

 

 

Her leaving is a good indicator that show that the old god survival and not the blight  or the warden was her primary concern.

Ever heard of logic? It tend to be more falsifiable and as such more reliable than emotions.

In short you are undoubtedly aggrandizing the importance of her PoV towards the one of the player which is what most of her fans do anyhow.

 

 

 

 

Sure he does, he's just being a baby about it. Drinking and acting out instead of dealing with his bitterness and feelings of betrayal and, again, rejection. If he didn't care about the Wardens then he'd have gotten on with his life instead of wallowing in self-pity. Complex emotional reactions.

He does not, he wish to stay away from the warden and the order in general,this is undoubtedly expressed from some of his lines you could just as easily revise on your own.

[ThomasBlaine]

In short you are undoubtedly aggrandizing the importance of her PoV towards the one of the player which is what most of her fans do anyhow.

 

That line is you shooting your own argument right in the face. All by itself.

 

If you want to understand or debate the motivation of a character, examining their point of view is the only way to do it. People aren't binary, we aren't computers. Complicated and interconnected thoughts and feelings motivate everything we do and say. You have to put yourself in the character's shoes and account for everything that makes that character tick if you want to know where it's coming from.

 

"She leaves so she doesn't care" and "he says he doesn't like Wardens, guess that's how he feels now" isn't character analysis, it's just your complete apparent lack of empathy taking everything at face value, ignoring that people don't act rationally and rarely say exactly what's on their minds.

 

What you're doing, and have been doing, is imagining what your ultra-rational idea of Morrigan would do given Morrigan's stated priorities and then complaining that it doesn't fit with what the actual, human, irrational Morrigan does in the game. Which says absolutely nothing about the character, except that you don't understand her. Congratulations.

[Secret Rare]

Leaving because she doesn't want to see me die just ... no....

She  made the Warden's chances for survival less than what they would have been had she helped, which proves the Warden's survival was never her goal. Rather the old god's survival was.

 

I'm impressed at how many defend Morrigan.  It's a tribute both to the voice actress and the writers who brought her to life as a complex character who is not easily characterized as good or bad.  In the end, I would have to characterize her at best as "amoral."  Her intent from the very beginning is to the Dark Ritual to obtain the soul of an Old God.  She tolerates a do-gooder Warden who always ignores the kind of nasty advice she gives:  let Redcliffe be overrun by undead, desecrate the Sacred Ashes, preserve the Anvil and side with mad Branka, etc.  The bottom line is her objective differs with that of the Warden.  The Warden wants to save Ferelden and Thedas from being overrun by Dark Spawn.  Morrigan couldn't care less about this objective; if you don't agree to the DR, she abandons you to the AD and the Dark Spawn.  Let Thedas be damned...

Agree.

Her defenders may brag about even for the eternity that she left because she didn't wanted to see the warden die i will always frimly stand by the conviction that she left because she didn't gained what she want that's all.

In topic for he romanced Morrigan i even mentioned how  she insult her lover  before to leave and frankly to me this is more of an evidence than anything else.

[Lunatica]

 Which says absolutely nothing about the character, except that you don't understand her. Congratulations.

Let me guess  Morrigan sympathizers are the only one who can understand Morrigan?

Congratulations to them.

 

Examine a character's Pov from  our own   lens is what it determine the personal understanding of a character.

Analyze someone by inheriting and adopting  only  their point of view makes ourselves  their mirrors in our perspective,this mean preposterously being self absorbed by someone else Pov and being willing to justify their words or actions as they justify themselves.

This is not understanding this is merely imitation.

[ThomasBlaine]

 

Let me guess  Morrigan sympathizers are the only one who can understand Morrigan?

Congratulations to them.

 

Examine a character's Pov from  our own   lens is what it determine the personal understanding of a character.

Analyze someone by inheriting and adopting  only  their point of view makes ourselves  their mirrors in our perspective,this mean preposterously being self absorbed by someone else Pov and being willing to justify their words or actions as they justify themselves.

This is not understanding this is merely imitation.

 

 

Nope, people who can put themselves in Morrigan's shoes are the only ones who can understand her. Or anyone else, for that matter.

 

See? What you just described is empathy, however "preposterous". You don't have to sympathize personally, but you do need to know how they justify what they do to themselves, otherwise you're just judging the characters without even trying to understand them. Which is fair enough, you just don't know what you're talking about and refuse to find out.

[Saburau]

I'm currently romancing Morrigan, though have not completed the game or anywhere near. I find her beautiful, intelligent (if unaware of the world hence suggrstions like abandoning Redcliffe when she knows we need Arl Eamon's support) and funny. Yes she's focused on survival, cold reality with little value for emotion but her background explains this surely. It's not my place to judge her for growing up in the Wilds being brought up by Flemeth and it's influence on her character just as she doesn't judge my Warden for being privileged in Castle Cousland.

[German Soldier]

Well a lot of the time Morrigan is just sort of reacting negatively to what she sees as the "systemic good" not necessarily an "actual good"

I mean, anyone can say, this is good or that should happen, but then is it? I mean, maybe it isn't right.

So I think a starting point is to say a lot of her personality isn't in opposition to like "doing good," it's in opposition to doing it without thinking of the overall consequences.

Morrigan is usually in opposition to do good to someone if this someone isn't herself.

funny story:
"bargain with the merchant yourself",
"rescue your daughter yourself",
"exorcise your child yourself"...
"kill my mother for me, please? I'm not even going to show up at the fight"

[Catilina]

Morrigan is usually in opposition to do good to someone (even when they reward you greatly)if this someone isn't herself.

funny story:
"bargain with the merchant yourself",
"rescue your daughter yourself",
"exorcise your child yourself"...
"kill my mother for me, please? I'm not even going to show up at the fight"

You forget that Morrigan familiar with the mercy... She felt sorry for Sten and Jowan too!

[German Soldier]

You forget that Morrigan familiar with the mercy... She felt sorry for Sten and Jowan too!

I did not since i said usually.

Sten and Jowan case has nothing to do with mercy she just believed that they were worthy to be saved based on her own contrived view based on power regardless of their crimes.

[Catilina]

 

I did not since i said usually.

Sten and Jowan case has nothing to do with mercy she just believed that they were worthy to be saved based on her own contrived view based on power(like teh one she apply to teh old god) despite the fact that these two persons were two traitors.

 

1. I'm just kidding, I know that do you think about this characters.

2. I do not put always smile if I joking. Then is not so funny.

3. Sorry...

[Illegitimus]

I made Alistair king then he decided to sacrifice himself for the warden is called Warden-Commander ending which imply that your prediction particularly your "obviously"  is not  true.

 

 

It is obvious that it doesn't make sense to install Alistair as King, and then kill him leaving Ferelden in a position where they're going to have resettle the succession just after having settled it once.  If you were deliberately intending to throw Alistair under the dragon, then you might as well install Anora in the first place.  That doesn't mean it can't happen.  It means it's reasonable for the outcome to defy Morrigan's expectations.  I'm not saying Morrigan is necessarily right.  She equally obviously isn't always right.  But right or wrong she's almost always sure.   

[ThomasBlaine]

Morrigan is usually in opposition to do good to someone if this someone isn't herself.

funny story:
"bargain with the merchant yourself",
"rescue your daughter yourself",
"exorcise your child yourself"...
"kill my mother for me, please? I'm not even going to show up at the fight"

 

Not exactly the same situation. Morrigan asks you for a personal favor that she can't do herself, and by then she has assisted, fought and presumably cooked for you for months. Not that it isn't hypocritical, but asking for something when you're desperate that you would resent giving to someone else is probably the most natural and widespread kind of hypocrisy there is.

 

That said, her being "in opposition" to doing good things is pretty harsh. She complains a bit and her respect for you drops a little when she sees you solving strangers' problems for them, but it's not like she physically tries to stop you. Or even balks at putting her own life on the line.

[Lunatica]

@ThomasBlaine

Having a personality that encourages hiding the truth doesn't excuse you from hiding the truth.

Hiding something from people who aren't going to like because they aren't going to like it is no excuse either.

At the end of the day everyone is responsible for their own actions which mean there is no need for the players to attempt to justify her based on her view rather than their own.

 

Which is what i summed up when i said

"aggrandizing the importance of her PoV compared to the one of the player"

[German Soldier]

It is obvious that it doesn't make sense to install Alistair as King, and then kill him leaving Ferelden in a position where they're going to have resettle the successuib just after having settled it once.  If you were deliberately intending to throw Alistair under the dragon, then you might as well install Anora in the first place.  That doesn't mean it can't happen.  It means it's reasonable for it to defy Morrigan's expectations.  I'm not saying Morrigan is necessarily right.  She equally obviously isn't always right.  But right or wrong she's almost always sure.   

The warden is not aware of the US at the landsmeet.

There is a difference between caring about Alistair and caring about Alistair enough to die for him. You could have made Alistair King because you prefer him to Anora which is very different but have no problem with Anora.

There you have a prediction which was solely based on the patterns you saw which were not all the possible outcomes.

[Seraphim24]

Morrigan is usually in opposition to do good to someone if this someone isn't herself.

funny story:
"bargain with the merchant yourself",
"rescue your daughter yourself",
"exorcise your child yourself"...
"kill my mother for me, please? I'm not even going to show up at the fight"

 

Maybe... I don't think she's that selfish though, personally.

 

I think she just doesn't know what to make of the world, it's extremely strange being an apostate, shapeshifting, daughter of a Witch-goddess.

 

So when she shows up to the "world" she doesn't trust it in the slighest, for good reasons.

 

But I mean yeah she can just be prickly just because I'm sure.

[ThomasBlaine]

Having a personality that encourages hiding the truth doesn't excuse you from hiding the truth.

Hiding something from people who aren't going to like because they aren't going to like it is no excuse either.

At the end of the day everyone is responsible for their own actions which mean there is no need for the players to attempt to justify her based on her view rather than their own.

 

Which is what i summed up when i said

"aggrandizing the importance of her PoV compared to the one of the player"

 

 

Some of which might be relevant if we were discussing whether Morrigan deserting the Warden is justifiable. What we're discussing is whether or not Morrigan deserting the Warden means that the Dark Ritual is all she cares about. That's a question of motivation, not morality. As such, all that matters to the discussion is what she thinks of her actions, not what you or I think of them.

[Illegitimus]

 

The warden is not aware of the US at the landsmeet.

There is a difference between caring about Alistair and caring about Alistair enough to die for him. 

 

 

Him and Ferelden.  The fact is, the new King of Ferelden is not as expendable as you are.  Killing Alistair doesn't automatically put Anora back in the driver's seat.  and your own actions have undermined her support.  In the setting it would be pretty extraordinary not to defer to rank and potentially sacrifice the stability and definitely sacrifice the continuity of government for personal survival.  Someone who would do that doesn't have much of a reason to refuse the ritual.   Oh, it might cause trouble later…so would killing the king right after crowning him.  In fact it doesn't seem entirely entirely unlikely that the result of doing that would be to have two or more lords of Ferelden fighting each other in a new civil war war to decide who would take Anora and with her, the political edge in the landsmeet to take the crown.  

[Seraphim24]

 

Agree.

Her defenders may brag about even for the eternity that she left because she didn't wanted to see the warden die i will always frimly stand by the conviction that she left because she didn't gained what she want that's all.

In topic for he romanced Morrigan i even mentioned how  she insult her lover  before to leave and frankly to me this is more of an evidence than anything else.

 

 

I don't know it could be that, as stated feels like it could be a mixed motivation though also..

[German Soldier]

Him and Ferelden.  The fact is, the new King of Ferelden is not as expendable as you are. 

I'm honestly unable to understand why you find  that assumption reasonable?

As the player i'm the only one entitled to decide if the HoF is more important than Alistair or not and to me they are.

 

Infact i will largue for the opposite,given the genius of the warden their death is a far greater lost than the one of Alistiar and you don't have to look beyond  DAA to realise it.

 

I would dare to say that sacrifice  the HoF for Alistair or Loghain is like sacrificing Mozart for Salieri.

[Secret Rare]

I don't know it could be that, as stated feels like it could be a mixed motivation though also..

I'm just saying that  the   "I'm leaving to not see you die theory"  doesn't work for someone  that specifically hope for your eternal regret if you will survive.

In order for that theory to properly be credible she should have at least wished for their survival regardless before to leave rather than use such words.

[Akiza]

rather than use such words.

I imagine that her Li who refused the ritual and decided to attack her in WH was repeating her same words in that moment.

"farewell my love should you live past the morrow i trust it will only be with regret"

So poetic.....

Don't mind me i'm just kidding like @Catalina 

or maybe not.....

[Illegitimus]

 

I'm honestly unable to understand why you find  that assumption reasonable?

As the player i'm the only one entitled to decide if the HoF is more important than Alistair or not and to me they are.

 

Infact i will largue for the opposite,given the genius of the warden their death is a far greater lost than the one of Alistiar and you don't have to look beyond  DAA to realise it.

 

I would dare to say that sacrifice  the HoF for Alistair or Loghain is like sacrificing Mozart for Salieri.

 

 

 

Except that Alistair's value is not as a Grey Warden but as an heir to the throne.  Unless you are a male Cousland you can't begin to fulfill the role Alistair can.  Once the Blight is defeated, Ferelden doesn't need a Big Damn Hero.  It needs a butt securely positioned on that throne.  You are of course free to decide that your character is more important than Ferelden's welfare.  But assuming that you've been going around being a good guy and saving people when you could have just walked past them and avoided risking yourself and your mission, then it wouldn't be surprising if Morrigan doesn't expect your character to throw Alistair under the dragon.   

 

That being said, yes Morrigan regards salvaging and transforming the old god's soul as her life's ambition.  She cares about it as much or more than Wynne cares about the circle and Leliana cares about Andraste and Sten cares about the Qun, causes for which they will try to outright kill you regardless of your being Ferelden's only hope.  (Not to mention that Alistair has his own ambition that will cause him to walk away if you deny it to him)  So yeah, no matter how much friendship or love tangles up her feelings, she'll still storm away in a fury if you deny it to her.   That doesn't mean she doesn't feel those emotions, just that she doesn't live for them, and does live for the one accomplishment that will give her a sense of personal significance.  And lets face it by the end of the game, Morrigan's contribution to your chances of victory will be modest.