26 replies to this topic

[Qun00]

It seems to me that having both Isabela/Aveline or Fenris/Anders on friendship potentially harms the player's RP. This makes your Hawke seem like a rather undefined individual.

Yes, yes, I'm aware that the approval system can be easily manipulated if you know how to do it. That's not the point. The problem is how the game treats the friendship and rivalry duality.

Friend!Isabela talks about how she likes the fact that you don't mind getting your hands dirty. Meanwhile, what pleases Aveline is helping keep the order without breaking the law. Rival!Anders literally believes you support the templars and friendship with Fenris requires not exposing him too much to your pro mage activities.

Do you see how glaring the inconsistency becomes in Hawke's character by pleasing either of these opposite duos?

[robertmarilyn]

I'm playing DA2 again right now and my Hawke is a mage with Fenris as a rival and Anders as a friend. I agree that trying to have gotten Fenris as a friend would have been taken a lot of hypocritical manipulations on the part of my mage. But I did manage to have both Aveline and Isabela as 100% friends (I'm still in act 2) without feeling devious or hypocritical about it. Romancing Isabela helped to get friendship points (before sealing a romance with Anders) but also, Isabela isn't totally against helping people and I've always taken the friend path with her without ever allowing her to get her ship back. She's actually pretty easy going and seems to like the things that a sarcastic Hawke says. Usually I play a diplomatic Hawke but still have always had her as a friend along with Aveline. 

 

BTW, I don't think any Hawke I play could manage to make Aveline, Varric. 

[vertigomez]

I wouldn't necessarily say that's true with Isabela and Aveline. Put in black and white terms, Snarky Hawke is like the Chaotic Good to balance out Izzy's Chaotic Neutral (and nudge her towards Good) and Aveline's Lawful Good (and encourage her to bend the rules).

Isabela may pout when Hawke does anything remotely selfless, but friend!Hawke is also accepting and nonjudgmental. Aveline gets exasperated with Hawke's... Hawkeness, but as she says, she knows they'll at least try to do the right thing. That counts for a lot.

[Catilina]

It seems to me that having both Isabela/Aveline or Fenris/Anders on friendship potentially harms the player's RP. This makes your Hawke seem like a rather undefined individual.

Yes, yes, I'm aware that the approval system can be easily manipulated if you know how to do it. That's not the point. The problem is how the game treats the friendship and rivalry duality.

Friend!Isabela talks about how she likes the fact that you don't mind getting your hands dirty. Meanwhile, what pleases Aveline is helping keep the order without breaking the law. Rival!Anders literally believes you support the templars and friendship with Fenris requires not exposing him too much to your pro mage activities.

Do you see how glaring the inconsistency becomes in Hawke's character by pleasing either of these opposite duos?

It's interest question, so (too) I tried in second time the rival romance with Fenris, so maybe it was a believable the friendship with Anders. (Isabela mostly go away with the book, so Aveline's 100% freindship was completely believable)
However, I do not think so incredible friendship with Fenris AND Anders, for example, in the real life I have friends with different political views. However keep in mind: Fenris mage hatred comes not from the ideology, but also from fear. If he will able to leavehis fear, will be not problem the friendship/love with a mage.

 

(With Anders i do not would be rivalry romance, because his rivalry based on ideology, and the ideology too important for him [and Justice too]. This would cause him pain, therefore it would not be too believe that are real love.)

[Sah291]

Yeah I always have trouble getting Aveline to 100% friendship on my canon Hawke, and I usually do friend Isabella...I manage to get her close enough by the end of the game, to side with Hawke, but I think I kind of prefer it that way, to start off rocky.

I find it really hard to rival Merrill at the same time as friending Anders. Despite the blood magic thing, it just doesn't make sense to me that Hawke would be that open minded enough to accept Anders, and then be so stern with her..especially if Hawke is also a mage too. Of course then I also find it impossible not to rival Fenris if friending those two.

I got to agree sarcastic Hawke as a chaotic good/neutral makes the most sense for a Hawke who could friend both someone like Aveline and Isabella at the same time... And who could manage to keep such a diverse rag tag group together in general.

But I keep in mind rivalry was not necessarily intended to be the opposite of friendhip, but different kind of relationship. It comes off a little better with some characters than others, but I still feel like rival Fenris and Hawke are still friends, for example.

[vertigomez]

I find it really hard to rival Merrill at the same time as friending Anders. Despite the blood magic thing, it just doesn't make sense to me that Hawke would be that open minded enough to accept Anders, and then be so stern with her..especially if Hawke is also a mage too. Of course then I also find it impossible not to rival Fenris if friending those two.

I always thought it was weird that Anders doesn't have a huge opportunity to turn all his friendship to rivalry+, like Merrill does with the Arulin'Holm. In her case, you can earn her friendship by being kind to mages but if you ultimately disagree with the blood magic route, you eventually get whammied with insta-rivalry. Then at least it feels more honest than with Anders, who assumes you're totally ready to rain fire on the Chantry 'cause you helped a couple apostates... lol.

I got to agree sarcastic Hawke as a chaotic good/neutral makes the most sense for a Hawke who could friend both someone like Aveline and Isabella at the same time... And who could manage to keep such a diverse rag tag group together in general.

Yeah, friendship with both of them felt totally natural with purple Hawke. It was when I played an aggressive/blunt Hawke that things got... touchy.

[Sah291]

I always thought it was weird that Anders doesn't have a huge opportunity to turn all his friendship to rivalry+, like Merrill does with the Arulin'Holm. In her case, you can earn her friendship by being kind to mages but if you ultimately disagree with the blood magic route, you eventually get whammied with insta-rivalry. Then at least it feels more honest than with Anders, who assumes you're totally ready to rain fire on the Chantry 'cause you helped a couple apostates... lol.

Hmm, it's been a while since I played, but I think he does have one, if you kill him in the fade and make the deal with the sloth demon? I seem to remember that gives a pretty big hit to friendship, and it ends the romance too if already started.

, friendship with both of them felt totally natural with purple Hawke. It was when I played an aggressive/blunt Hawke that things got... touchy.

Yeah, purple Hawke also makes the most sense to me as the kind of person Varric would most likely consider his best friend, the way he does. So that's another reason why purple is my canon.

[robertmarilyn]

This is the first time I've played snarky/sarcastic/purple Hawke (always diplomatic before) and it was so much easier to get everybody's friendship/rivalry where I wanted them with purple Hawke. I do think purple answers seem to be the "real" Hawke. Diplomatic Hawke seems like a boring Hawke but that's what I've usually played. I do pick the red/angry answers when they are appropriate but I sure wouldn't want to play angry Hawke all the time. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't agree. My first two Hawkes were friends with both Anders and Fenris and I never felt like the character was inconsistent. Being friends with Fenris is not exclusively about being anti-mage. Plus the two of them actually agree on a lot if you bring them both to deal with Merril's quests. 

[vbibbi]

I always thought it was weird that Anders doesn't have a huge opportunity to turn all his friendship to rivalry+, like Merrill does with the Arulin'Holm. In her case, you can earn her friendship by being kind to mages but if you ultimately disagree with the blood magic route, you eventually get whammied with insta-rivalry. Then at least it feels more honest than with Anders, who assumes you're totally ready to rain fire on the Chantry 'cause you helped a couple apostates... lol.
 

Yeah that would have been good if there were more crisis points for some of the companions. The demon in the Fade is one, but that's not an option everyone is going to take, while the issue on whether or not to restore the eluvian is polarizing.

[Fylimar]

I don't have a big problem befriending both Fenris and Anders. I usually don't take Fenris on the mage missions, but I don't consider that cheating. In real life , I would not expose a friend to something, he/she feels uncomfortable with either and Fenris hate and fear of magic is understandable from his pov. So I would consider my (mostly kind hearted) Hawkes cruel, to tag him along in something, he clearly don't like. I agree with him on Tevinter and slavery and I do agree that magic can be dangerous (even as a mage).

As for Anders, I find it really easy to befriend him (the easiest besides Varric and Bethany imo).

Isabella and Aveline are no contradticion for me - someone already explained how a snarky Hakwe can influence both of them.

 

Merril and Sebastian are the hardest to befriend for me. I had Merrill at full rivalry by the end of act 2 once, because I did not give her the arulin'holm and had her along for some missions where I had to deal with blood mages - and that gave me a lot of disapproval, because I played a bloodmagic hating Hawke and killed Idunna, said some real mean things to Tahrone (I don't think, you can avoid dissapproval in that quest).  And I never get Sebastian to full friendship or rivalry. He usually agrees with my good decisions, but I normally don't play religious types and I have to smartmouth him sometimes for his attitude and I sometimes give Elthina some snarky comment, because I don't agree with her staying out of all the conflicts. So there is bound to be disagreement with Sebastian

[RoseLawliet]

I think possible inconsistencies like this only exist because the only companions affected by any one decision are those who were with you. Fenris wasn't with me when I helped some mages escape the Chantry, but since 1. being friends with Anders, 2. being mysteriously absent when these mages were being saved, and 3. Varric's habit of telling stories about Hawke when they're not around... Fenris would have found out what Hawke did and would not approve.

 

The system in Inquisition where all companions react to certain decisions whether or not they are present is much better in my opinion.

[GoldenGail3]

Oooooh, I think being rivals in the best thing ever!

[straykat]

I'm usually rivals with both Fenris and Merrill..

 

But it makes sense... to me anyways. I support mages, but hate blood magic. Anders has the same conflicts with both of them too, I guess... but he annoys me for his own reasons too.

[GoldenGail3]

I'm usually rivals with both Fenris and Merrill..
 
But it makes sense... to me anyways. I support mages, but hate blood magic. Anders has the same conflicts with both of them too, I guess... but he annoys me for his own reasons too.

Same here. Although I rivaled everyone besides for Anders as I refused to be Aggressive towards Anders and I was always pro Mage in DA2. I can't be Pro Templar; it's utterly impossible for me to conceive of doing such things...

[straykat]

Same here. Although I rivaled everyone besides for Anders as I refused to be Aggressive towards Anders and I was always pro Mage in DA2. I can't be Pro Templar; it's utterly impossible for me to conceive of doing such things...

 

One thing I like about this is it gave my Hawke some pretty specific views. Pro-Mage, but didn't like blood magic. Or Spirits and the things Anders did either. Hawke ends up in corner on the other side of the room.

[Contraire]

To answer the initial opposition, I don't think it's that clear-cut.

 

Fenris vs Anders: I think you're forgetting the third side of this opposition, ie Merrill. Fenris and Anders tend to both be fiercely opposed to Merrill's approach to magic, so you can easily imagine a Hawke that's aligned with them about demons and blood magic versus Merrill. (In the same manner, you can easily have a Hawke who's friends with both Anders and Merrill because of their general opinion about mages being free, but who can disagree about the particulars.)

 

Aveline vs Isabella: My purple Hawke is friends with both, but Aveline often mentions in dialogue that she wishes Hawke was more responsible. It's easy to imagine a fun-loving Hawke who likes to help people but who distrusts the system, or who doesn't want to feel shackled by responsibilities aside from their family.

 

And if worse come to worse, Hawke can be like Varric: a people person with a knack for making friends. Maybe Hawke lacks a Great Cause they're willing to argue about every time, but that doesn't necessarily mean they lack personality.

[Catilina]

I think it is not at all incompatible: most people have differing views friends.

[AnimalBoy]

I don't really care if it does or not. Despite this game being a RPG and how people want to take my stance on things i don't really play it like a RPG in the sense that i don't care if my decisions make any sense towards the story. I make my decisions based on what i want to do, what makes the character that i'm currently trying to make happy, happy. If i have to do something to make a certain character happy but know that another character won't like it i simply leave that character behind so they can't disapprove.

[Idun]

I had both Isabela and Aveline on 100% friendship without paying much attention to it in my first run. I just helped them whenever they needed it. I couldn't get anyone into max rivalry, Merrill was probably closest. Sebastian was still on pretty high friendship despite my Chantry-hating, pro-mage ways. Until I gave him the middle finger and left Anders alive. 

[springacres]

I don't agree. My first two Hawkes were friends with both Anders and Fenris and I never felt like the character was inconsistent. Being friends with Fenris is not exclusively about being anti-mage. Plus the two of them actually agree on a lot if you bring them both to deal with Merril's quests. 

My canon Hawke is a purple mage who's besties with everyone except Merrill.  I see Anders as the black-and-white one in the Anders/Fenris dynamic; for Anders, you're either with him or you're against him, and anyone who disagrees with him is automatically anti-mage.  Fenris, on the other hand, seems to realize on some level that his attitude towards mages is unjust, and as Jedi mentioned, Fenris isn't just anti-mage; he's also anti-slavery.  Gaining Fenris' friendship is just as much about affirming his experiences as a slave, supporting him without being condescending, treating him as an equal, and being kind to elves and ex-slaves.  Anders seems solely focused on the mage issue.

 

I also don't see Aveline and Isabela's relationship dynamic being quite as black-and-white as Anders and Fenris' is.  They don't necessarily get along, but there's a modicum of respect there which I don't see in the Anders/Fenris dynamic.  Their banter reminds me somewhat of the Zevran/Oghren dynamic in Origins; there's tension there, but there's also a sense of appreciation of the other person - a sense of, "I don't agree with you, but I'm glad of the skills you bring."

[yrael]

My first Hawke managed to be friends with everyone, because she liked being liked and made very careful decisions about who accompanied her for certain kinds of quests. I liked to imagine she made everyone but Varric stay very hush-hush about what she was really doing. Like "listen, Fenris CAN'T FIND OUT that we let those apostates go" or "don't tell Aveline I accepted a bribe today," etc etc. Then she would lock them in as friends and could be confident they wouldn't leave no matter how much they disagreed with her, which is how the entire second half of the game involved keeping Fenris and Anders in the same party.

[obbie31]

I was friends with both Isabela and Aveline on my first playthrough, and didn't really see anything wrong with it. To be honest, I did end up disliking Isabela by the end of the game even if she was my romance option. And I did like Aveline a lot. In my most recent playthrough I had her as a rival and "betrayed" her while Aveline remained my friend. Neither felt off to me honestly.

[tanzensehen]

Not really. In most rivalries - except Merrill and Sebastian - the companions expects Hawke to act in a certain way - to be cruel or holier-than-you mostly. So if they are friends with Hawke, it's safe to assume that they know that Hawke is actually not the kind of person who would, I don't know, mock someone for being an analphabet, even if they sometimes disagree.
Friend!Aveline knows that Hawke is still being a shady mercenary, but because Hawke respects her and doesn't cause too much trouble they still like each other.    

[Dean_the_Young]

It seems to me that having both Isabela/Aveline or Fenris/Anders on friendship potentially harms the player's RP. This makes your Hawke seem like a rather undefined individual.

Yes, yes, I'm aware that the approval system can be easily manipulated if you know how to do it. That's not the point. The problem is how the game treats the friendship and rivalry duality.

Friend!Isabela talks about how she likes the fact that you don't mind getting your hands dirty. Meanwhile, what pleases Aveline is helping keep the order without breaking the law. Rival!Anders literally believes you support the templars and friendship with Fenris requires not exposing him too much to your pro mage activities.

Do you see how glaring the inconsistency becomes in Hawke's character by pleasing either of these opposite duos?

 

What's the problem if your Hawke is so eager to please that he or she only says what the companion wants to hear? Being a hypocrite is a perfectly valid roleplay, and certainly something the developers should prohibit.

 

There's no prize or goal or reason to have everyone be Friendship. You can simply rival one and friend the other if you wish for character consistency.