86 réponses à ce sujet

[Kurogane335]

Hanako, I think you're making a mistake when you say that the Tamassaran are indoctrinated into being sex slaves. Just like any other Qunari, they are educated to live by the Qun. Since healing "sexual illness" is a part of their job, they probably have to do so yes. But not at the discretion of the one requiring it. Do you really imagine Rasaan being in the middle of interrogating Isabella only to have a simple soldier coming to her, telling her that he need release and Rasaan immediately passing in "sex" mode ? I highly doubt it. I think that there are missions which have priorities over the others. Among the Tamassrans, educating children, interrogating potential convert, helping others are the main missions, apparently. Thus, sexual release is but a part of the "helping others" mission.

 

And that's a part of their culture, which, contrary to the popular belief on this forum, doesn't destroy choices or the ability to make them but put other emphasis than personal gain and egotism in choices. That's no different from us going to see the doctor (and truth been told, most of the time, since I'm a French living in France, the total sum I pay the doctor is 0€ since there is a system which will sent me the equivalent sum of money I gave to the doctor). Does it make doctors my slaves ? Of course not. That the same principle with the Tamassran, except that they are paid through other means (probably food, clothing, homes, goods, etc. since the Qunari don't really have a money they use between themselves). Furthermore, the Tamassran being the ones who educate children, do you really think that they couldn't destroy this practice if they wanted it ? With the clear respect and/or love that other qunari have for them, a concerted effort by the Tamassran to get rid of it wouldn't be easily blocked, especially when the Tama also keeps the register regarding who'se related to who.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And that's a part of their culture, which, contrary to the popular belief on this forum, doesn't destroy choices or the ability to make them but put other emphasis than personal gain and egotism in choices. That's no different from us going to see the doctor (and truth been told, most of the time, since I'm a French living in France, the total sum I pay the doctor is 0€ since there is a system which will sent me the equivalent sum of money I gave to the doctor). Does it make doctors my slaves ? Of course not. That the same principle with the Tamassran, except that they are paid through other means (probably food, clothing, homes, goods, etc. since the Qunari don't really have a money they use between themselves). Furthermore, the Tamassran being the ones who educate children, do you really think that they couldn't destroy this practice if they wanted it ? With the clear respect and/or love that other qunari have for them, a concerted effort by the Tamassran to get rid of it wouldn't be easily blocked, especially when the Tama also keeps the register regarding who'se related to who.

 

That is horrible comparison that doesn't even equate. You realize that doctor chose his profession and can change it if he doesn't like it, that is even true in many cases in Thedas.Qunari can't chose their profession they are prescribed to them whether they like it or not.Any form of deviation from qun is meet with "reeducation" in other word brainwashing, so once again they are forced into their role meaning even if you hate being X you are on Qunari mercy.

[Kurogane335]

That is horrible comparison that doesn't even equate. You realize that doctor chose his profession and can change it if he doesn't like it, that is even true in many cases in Thedas.Qunari can't chose their profession they are prescribed to them whether they like it or not.Any form of deviation from qun is meet with "reeducation" in other word brainwashing, so once again they are forced into their role meaning even if you hate being X you are on Qunari mercy.

They are provided with either being an artisan, a priest or a warrior. And inside those careers, they can become whatever the hell they want, according to their wishes and talents. A member of the Beresaad can even become an Arishok should he prove competent. Furthermore, how many people, especially in a medieval period, really can choose to become something else than their parents ? There was a reason there was Orders and apprenticeship in the Middle-Ages : because it was a society which was perpetuating itself with minimal changes between generations; The son of a farmer would become a farmer if he was the heir, otherwise he would have to eke out a living as best he could, working for his brother, or other land-owners. Even today, the "elites" tend to reproduce between themselves, and you have a lot more children of doctors becoming doctors themselves than children of factory workers. The numbers are less skewed in the favour of the firsts than they were in the past, but they are still skewed.

 

The Qunari have dispositions allowing one to move from broad carrier to another (we know of one, Aqun-Athlok, but there could be one or two more) because a totally rigid society wouldn't work. And the Qunari society works, better than any other in Thedas in fact : no racism between its members, better social services and healthcare than anywhere else, save the most powerful of noble houses, no slavery with the exception of Saarebas.

 

And no, not every "deviation" of the Qun is punished, because there isn't a set way to tell what the Qun is, even between the priests, beyond the broadest of concepts. Even the famous "example" of Solas is a false one, which does more to prove that the Qun isn't a totalitarian society where choices are banned than the contrary.

[TheKomandorShepard]

They are provided with either being an artisan, a priest or a warrior. And inside those careers, they can become whatever the hell they want, according to their wishes and talents. A member of the Beresaad can even become an Arishok should he prove competent. Furthermore, how many people, especially in a medieval period, really can choose to become something else than their parents ? There was a reason there was Orders and apprenticeship in the Middle-Ages : because it was a society which was perpetuating itself with minimal changes between generations; The son of a farmer would become a farmer if he was the heir, otherwise he would have to eke out a living as best he could, working for his brother, or other land-owners. Even today, the "elites" tend to reproduce between themselves, and you have a lot more children of doctors becoming doctors themselves than children of factory workers. The numbers are less skewed in the favour of the firsts than they were in the past, but they are still skewed.

 

The Qunari have dispositions allowing one to move from broad carrier to another (we know of one, Aqun-Athlok, but there could be one or two more) because a totally rigid society wouldn't work. And the Qunari society works, better than any other in Thedas in fact : no racism between its members, better social services and healthcare than anywhere else, save the most powerful of noble houses, no slavery with the exception of Saarebas.

 

And no, not every "deviation" of the Qun is punished, because there isn't a set way to tell what the Qun is, even between the priests, beyond the broadest of concepts. Even the famous "example" of Solas is a false one, which does more to prove that the Qun isn't a totalitarian society where choices are banned than the contrary.

 

First of all they are forced into their function whether they like it or not , there is no choice.Qunari prescribe you to the job they see you fit , so if qunari see you as fisherman you are fisherman and you have no choice here even if you are unhappy. 

 

In Thedas, plenty of people have choice what profession they will pursuit and their only limitation is reality and in some cases racial (elves) or social (casteless) issues but authority doesn't enforce what kind of career you will pursuit.Sorry, but once again you use horrible comparison because you still aren't forced to become doctor even if you parents want you to become doctor , so if you will give in into your parents pressure it is only your own fault for doing so as authorities won't force you to do so.  

 

Change of career occurs only in exceptional cases (like showing magical talent) and isn't your choice only authorities.It works only because of that Qunari enforce it by brainwashing and they are trying extinguish individualism and even then there are revolts after all Tal-Vashoth didn't came from nowhere.

 

It seems you have no idea what you are talking about , because even developer called qunari totalitarian what is proper word to describe qunari as once again they extinguish individual will and enforce and control way of living of every individual.

[Kurogane335]

That's a whole lot of inaccuracies. People aren't selected at birth to become something. They are categorized and a children bred for being a soldier probably will be, but it isn't always the case. Choices are prevalent in the Qunari society, just like everywhere else in Thedas. Individual will is not extinguished, it is propelled toward the benefits of all over oneself, just like in our world it is propelled toward egotism and the benefit of oneself. Or do you really think that you can chose to be anything you want IRL ? Big news, you can't. The society is arrayed against you, a poor boy won't ever become a billionaire if he doesn't resort to means which will makes others suffer (like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates did in their youth), the so-called "freedom" we are offered is mostly tilted toward uniformity : you have to have a car, a computer, a smartphone, support certain ideologies over others, etc.

 

And once again, no, the Qunari do not control everything people does to the minute detail. That an urban legend repeated a million time in echo chambers. the "example" of Solas is the definite proof that it isn't the case because the baker doesn't obey the "dictates" of the Qun by adding sugar to every thing she bakes, and yet she isn't punished while this practice can't possibly be unnoticed, because of registers, and the many people involved in the production chain. So either they all revolt against the Qun this way and it should have been destroyed for a long time if it was a totalitarian system, because it would turn vioçlently against a vast portion of its population, or it is actually that the Qun isn't the beginning and end of everything for the Qunari in their everyday lives. Furthermore, the principle of a totalitarian system is to create culprits for everything which goes wrong for the society they rise in and destroy them. And not even the Saarebas share this characteristic, because they are still considered a part of the Qunari society, and the reaction to them seems to be ambivalent, depending of the personal Qunari.

 

The Qun is inclusive, against racism and the picking of internal enemies (even the Tal-Vashoth aren't seen as a group, more a collection of individuals who renege against the Qun). That's not how a totalitarian society work or sustain itself. That's how another civilization, with values foreign for another civilization works.

 

Edit : if you want a totalitarian regime, you've got Tevinter which is far more closer to one, with its exclusive eugenicist behaviour, rigidly caste system defined by birth only and blatant disregard for the lives of others.

[TheKomandorShepard]

That's a whole lot of inaccuracies. People aren't selected at birth to become something. They are categorized and a children bred for being a soldier probably will be, but it isn't always the case. Choices are prevalent in the Qunari society, just like everywhere else in Thedas. Individual will is not extinguished, it is propelled toward the benefits of all over oneself, just like in our world it is propelled toward egotism and the benefit of oneself. Or do you really think that you can chose to be anything you want IRL ? Big news, you can't. The society is arrayed against you, a poor boy won't ever become a billionaire if he doesn't resort to means which will makes others suffer (like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates did in their youth), the so-called "freedom" we are offered is mostly tilted toward uniformity : you have to have a car, a computer, a smartphone, support certain ideologies over others, etc.

 

And once again, no, the Qunari do not control everything people does to the minute detail. That an urban legend repeated a million time in echo chambers. the "example" of Solas is the definite proof that it isn't the case because the baker doesn't obey the "dictates" of the Qun by adding sugar to every thing she bakes, and yet she isn't punished while this practice can't possibly be unnoticed, because of registers, and the many people involved in the production chain. So either they all revolt against the Qun this way and it should have been destroyed for a long time if it was a totalitarian system, because it would turn vioçlently against a vast portion of its population, or it is actually that the Qun isn't the beginning and end of everything for the Qunari in their everyday lives. Furthermore, the principle of a totalitarian system is to create culprits for everything which goes wrong for the society they rise in and destroy them. And not even the Saarebas share this characteristic, because they are still considered a part of the Qunari society, and the reaction to them seems to be ambivalent, depending of the personal Qunari.

 

The Qun is inclusive, against racism and the picking of internal enemies (even the Tal-Vashoth aren't seen as a group, more a collection of individuals who renege against the Qun). That's not how a totalitarian society work or sustain itself. That's how another civilization, with values foreign for another civilization works.

 

Edit : if you want a totalitarian regime, you've got Tevinter which is far more closer to one, with its exclusive eugenicist behaviour, rigidly caste system defined by birth only and blatant disregard for the lives of others.

 

I see you didn't read what i have said properly and jumped into own inaccurate conclusions.First of all i never argued they are selected to their role from birth i don't even know from where you got that idea.In fact they are breed in order to fill certain functions but that may change what that is irrelevant as Qunari are one that chose what your role will be not you no matter what. That is strawman argument, yes i can chose what kind of career i will pursuit whether i will be successful in that career is another matter nor i do have to become billionaire. I don't have to have a car , nor smartphone or computer unless my job requires those things i know people that don't have a car or computer.

 

Antoher strawman argument on your point.Qunari put extreme emphasis on controling their people, not in 100 % (like how exactly many flour they will use to bake X) but nonetheless control them in almost every aspect of their life like their career,reproduction, function in society to pretty much philosophy.That is purly insane logic, totalitarian systems doesn't equate destruction of its opposition and lack of it nor 100% control of individual and once again Qunari maintain their system thanks to brainwashing members that will start deviate from Qun what is confirmed by devs that said because of customs Sten took from Ferelden he was reeducated. 

 

You don't seem graps what totalitarianism is, totalitarism isn't system that is about disregarding people lives only about controling tham as much it is possible them what Qun is all about.

[Kurogane335]

You clearly have a biased vision of what the Qunari society works or what it is, and like most of the people who do, you have decided that it is evil and refute any proof to the contrary. I won't waste more time derailing this thread. Not with someone who blatantly don't see what totalitarians system are, and how the Qun is anything but it.

[Hexxagone]

Its amazing how many people don't understand the Qun.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You clearly have a biased vision of what the Qunari society works or what it is, and like most of the people who do, you have decided that it is evil and refute any proof to the contrary. I won't waste more time derailing this thread. Not with someone who blatantly don't see what totalitarians system are, and how the Qun is anything but it.

Trying go with argument "you are biased" won't work here because i gave Qunari fair share of praise many times in their threads and even pointed their superiority to rest of Thedas in certain aspects.Sorry, where i declared Qun evil, it is your another inaccurate assumption because i didn't even discuss my moral judgement of them only simply how they operate.

 

You have no evidence , you only used strawman arguments that were inaccurate like that totalitarian system would have no opposition or was just trying to compare doctor that have chosen his job to Qunari that didn't. So sadly you are one biased here, that have no idea how Qunari operate . 

[Hexxagone]

Im with Kuro on this, he understands Qunari society.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Im with Kuro on this, he understands Qunari society.

Well then clearly don't understand Qunari society as well , because even developer said things i did.

[Hexxagone]

Lets agree to disagree, this thread has been derailed enough.