82 réponses à ce sujet

[vertigomez]

Alright, this question has come up approximately 900,000,000 times on this subforum, but those threads are old and I need new perspectives, with Inquisition in mind. I'm coming up on this quest again and here's where my head's at:

Anders
- I like to keep as many characters alive as possible for future games.
- He was Hawke's friend.
- I understand his motivations even if I don't agree with his methods.

Sebastian
- Anders blew up a Chantry full of people, including his mother figure.
- Anders was Hawke's friend and then used and betrayed him. Owwww.
- Seb's going to raze Kirkwall to the ground if I don't kill Anders.

WHAT DO?!

[Catilina]

I extremely hate the blackmail and the misuse of power. So: Sebastian request unacceptable for me, even if Anders' sin are intolerable. And, do not forget: Hawke not an executioner! Asking it from him, more than improper. I think.

 

But for the sake of preserving peace, and taking into account the seriousness of sin, sometimes i did it.

 

Sebastian's promised revenge much greater sin, than Anders', and requires more human sacrifice.

[Lady Artifice]

As someone who spent plenty of time arduously conflicted about this issue, I'm still going to say what people always to this dilemma.

 

It depends what kind of Hawke you want to play.

 

What kind of Hawke are you playing Gomez?

 

The place I eventually landed for my default Hawke was sparing Anders but ordering him to leave, and then ordering him to leave again when he turned up hoping to help fight the Templars.

 

I don't forgive him, and I don't want to play into his wish to make him a martyr for his cause. My Hawke was angry, betrayed, and resentful of the position he put her in, but she still cared, still didn't want to kill him, and she felt that doing so would have actually been letting him off too easy. Anders wanted to die, and he wanted Hawke to kill him. In some ways I think letting him live with what he did without offering him any forgiveness or comfort was the cruelest fate I could have subjected him to.

 

---

 

To come to the point, I think the least miserable ending involves executing Anders. Sebastian is pacified re: razing Kirkwall and Anders gets the peace he hopes for.

 

I personally, though, was too angry at both of them to strive for the least miserable ending. I understand why Sebastian insisted on Anders being executed, but if it was that crucial, he should have offered to do it himself.

[Sah291]

In light of DAI, it really doesn't make much difference in my opnion, unless you romanced one of them and want Hawke to mention it. Seb is a useful asset for the Inquisition, but I'm pretty sure you can still complete that quest even if you betrayed him in DA2. He takes back his title regardless. He does make good on his threat....but (without spoilers) Kirkwall ends up ok in the end I think.

[Voidinist]

If you want to use meta-game knowledge you know it never happens anyway. But annexing Kirkwall is hardly that terrible to begin with. Since Aveline's ascension into guard-captain, she has barely made a dent in Kirkwall's rampant crime. Hawke has to take care of practically all of it.

Sebastian attempting to reel in Kirkwall under the Free Marches' richest city-state for the purpose of rooting out a terrorist and his accomplices is basically a favor for that cesspool.

 

Personally, I'd kill Anders every time. It doesn't matter whether your Hawke is pro-mage freedom or not, by the time of Inquisition the mage rebellion is largely out of their hands and at the whims of the next Divine. If you decide to stick with whatever Divine you get or you're RPing a pro-Circle Inquisitor, Anders could be immensely unhappy with Cassandra and Vivienne's reforms and cause further problems.

 

It's pretty much better for everyone but Anders if you kill him. A terrorist is dead, the prince of Starkhaven willingly helps the mages if you decide to side with them, and he then offers aid to Kirkwall without force.

[vertigomez]

Thank you all for your thoughts!

I extremely hate the blacmail and the misuse of power. So: Sebastian request unacceptable for me, even if Anders' sin are intolerable. And, do not forget: Hawke not an executioner! And do not forget: Hawke is not an executioner. Asking it from him, more than improper. I think.

Yeah, I always thought that was a **** move. At least Alistair will execute Loghain himself in the right circumstances, but Sebastian... doesn't want to get his hands dirty? I'm not sure what his thought process is. I guess he wasn't thinking at all, what with the overwhelming grief and rage...

As someone who spent plenty of time arduously conflicted about this issue, I'm still going to say what people always to this dilemma.

It depends what kind of Hawke you want to play.

What kind of Hawke are you playing Gomez?

The place I eventually landed for my default Hawke was sparing Anders but ordering him to leave, and then ordering him to leave again when he turned up hoping to help fight the Templars.

I don't forgive him, and I don't want to play into his wish to make him a martyr for his cause. My Hawke was angry, betrayed, and resentful of the position he put her in, but she still cared, still didn't want to kill him, and she felt that doing so would have actually been letting him off too easy. Anders wanted to die, and he wanted Hawke to kill him. In some ways I think letting him live with what he did without offering him any forgiveness or comfort was the cruelest fate I could have subjected him to.

---

To come to the point, I think the least miserable ending involves executing Anders. Sebastian is pacified re: razing Kirkwall and Anders gets the peace he hopes for.

I personally, though, was too angry at both of them to strive for the least miserable ending. I understand why Sebastian insisted on Anders being executed, but if it was that crucial, he should have offered to do it himself.

Good question. On my very first playthrough, I based that whole decision on my own reactions, and I didn't have Sebastian's DLC. So I spared Anders, but told him to **** right off because I didn't want to give him the satisfaction of fighting by Hawke's side again... I felt like a douche, but I was also too angry to care. In subsequent playthroughs I've spared him and let him help liberate the Circle, but eugh, it doesn't sit right with me.

This time I'm trying really, really hard to stick to Hawke's character as I envision it. And my Hawke loves Kirkwall as much as Varric does, and knowing how many people died in that Chantry, and knowing that it's gonna be "his" fault if Sebastian comes and causes even more death and destruction... I reeeaally think this Hawke is going to shiv Anders, and then feel horribly guilty about it for the rest of his life. He's a glutton for guilt, apparently.

UGH THIS DECISION MAKES ME FEEL LIKE EXCREMENT.

In light of DAI, it really doesn't make much difference in my opnion, unless you romanced one of them and want Hawke to mention it. Seb is a useful asset for the Inquisition, but I'm pretty sure you can still complete that quest even if you betrayed him in DA2. He takes back his title regardless. He does make good on his threat....but (without spoilers) Kirkwall ends up ok in the end I think.

If you want to use meta-game knowledge you know it never happens anyway. But annexing Kirkwall is hardly that terrible to begin with. Since Aveline's ascension into guard-captain, she has barely made a dent in Kirkwall's rampant crime. Hawke has to take care of practically all of it. Sebastian attempting to reel in Kirkwall under the Free Marches' richest city-state for the purpose of rooting out a terrorist and his accomplices is basically a favor for that cesspool.

Personally, I'd kill Anders every time. It doesn't matter whether your Hawke is pro-mage freedom or not, by the time of Inquisition the mage rebellion is largely out of their hands and at the whims of the next Divine. If you decide to stick with whatever Divine you get or you're RPing a pro-Circle Inquisitor, Anders could be immensely unhappy with Cassandra and Vivienne's reforms and cause further problems.

It's pretty much better for everyone but Anders if you kill him. A terrorist is dead, the prince of Starkhaven willingly helps the mages if you decide to side with them, and he then offers aid to Kirkwall without force.

Yeah, I'm trying not too metagame too much. I know there's ultimately not much of a difference, but if Hawke returns to Kirkwall knowing what he (almost?) put its citizens through, knowing what he put Aveline through, knowing that it didn't have to happen... arrghhh.

Sidenote, does Sebastian still return to rule Starkhaven on the friendship path, even if you execute Anders?

[sniper_arrow]

One thing that's bugging me is why didn't Sebastian simply kill Anders on the spot, since he was ready to do so.

[Sah291]

Yeah, I'm trying not too metagame too much. I know there's ultimately not much of a difference, but if Hawke returns to Kirkwall knowing what he (almost?) put its citizens through, knowing what he put Aveline through, knowing that it didn't have to happen... arrghhh.

Well then that depends on how you see Hawke and what you think he/she would most likely do as a character.

Tresspasser spoilers...

Spoiler

If Hawke survives the fade, and Varric becomes Viscount, the epilogue slides say Hawke helps him with rebuilding.

[vertigomez]

One thing that's bugging me is why didn't Sebastian simply kill Anders on the spot, since he was ready to do so.

Yeah, that's frustrating. But I guess he didn't want to risk getting horribly murderized if he tried to kill Anders and Hawke didn't let him?

Well then that depends on how you see Hawke and what you think he/she would most likely do as a character.
Tresspasser spoilers...

Spoiler

If Hawke survives the fade, and Varric becomes Viscount, the epilogue slides say Hawke helps him with rebuilding.

*bites nails*

I can't decide, I can't decide..!

[Voidinist]

Sidenote, does Sebastian still return to rule Starkhaven on the friendship path, even if you execute Anders?

 

Yes, friendship/rivalry and the Anders decision don't matter. He ends up ruling Starkhaven no matter what.

[Sah291]

One thing that's bugging me is why didn't Sebastian simply kill Anders on the spot, since he was ready to do so.

Because I think they were going somewhere with that storyline.

But the reason given in game is because he refuses to fight Hawke for it (and he's no match in a duel with Hawke). He wants Hawke to be the one to do it, probably, as a show of loyalty, and because he holds him personally responsible.

[vertigomez]

Yes, friendship/rivalry and the Anders decision don't matter. He ends up ruling Starkhaven no matter what.

Thanks. I always wondered about that.

Because I think they were going somewhere with that storyline.

But the reason given in game is because he refuses to fight Hawke for it (and he's no match in a duel with Hawke). He wants Hawke to be the one to do it, probably, as a show of loyalty, and because he holds him personally responsible.

Oh snap, I never thought of it like that. But my Hawke blamed himself, so it's no surprise that everyone else did, too... Hawke, you shameless enabler! Where do you suppose they were going with that storyline?

Reminds me of this conversation,

Spoiler

Sebastian: It's our duty to tell the templars.
Fenris: Then why haven't you done it?
Sebastian: I guess I was hoping they'd come to it on their own.
Fenris: And then you wouldn't have to betray Hawke's friends, right?
Sebastian: That's not reason enough to allow a maleficar to walk free.
Anders: You think the templars don't know I'm here? They just haven't caught me yet.
Merrill: Are you talking about me?
Sebastian: Which of us should do it? Shall we draw lots?
Fenris: Nuh-uh. You want to turn them in, you work it out with Hawke.

[Catilina]

Reminds me of this conversation,

Spoiler

Sebastian: It's our duty to tell the templars.
Fenris: Then why haven't you done it?
Sebastian: I guess I was hoping they'd come to it on their own.
Fenris: And then you wouldn't have to betray Hawke's friends, right?
Sebastian: That's not reason enough to allow a maleficar to walk free.
Anders: You think the templars don't know I'm here? They just haven't caught me yet.
Merrill: Are you talking about me?
Sebastian: Which of us should do it? Shall we draw lots?
Fenris: Nuh-uh. You want to turn them in, you work it out with Hawke.

I like that, so much!

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I didn't choose Anders even before installing "The Exiled Prince!" 

[ShadowLordXII]

Killing Anders gives him what he wants (release from responsibility and becoming a martyr for his cause), so I'd say spare Anders and let him see exactly what he creates with his actions.

 

So I guess Sebastian's off to start an Exalted March. Personally, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to murder-knife Anders when he threatens to destroy your home because of one mage whose currently standing within sight. If Sebastian wants Anders dead, he's got a clear shot.

[Qun00]

Tell both of them to go **** themselves.

[Sah291]

Thanks. I always wondered about that.

Oh snap, I never thought of it like that. But my Hawke blamed himself, so it's no surprise that everyone else did, too... Hawke, you shameless enabler! Where do you suppose they were going with that storyline?

Well, I don't know exactly, but his writer at the time said his story wasn't over, so I assume he was probably meant to show up again in the expansion that was cancelled.... either as an ally or antagonist helping to lead the exalted march and capture Hawke.

But yeah. It's not just that Hawke was an enabler, but might have actively participated, if you agreed to help. Anders is taking the blame/fall, but I think it's implied Seb suspects Hawke is complicit, even if he can't prove it. He has banter dialogue asking if Hawke knew what Anders wanted with the Chantry. So killing Anders is an ultimatum for his trust/loyalty.

[kimgoold]

As a mage player and Pro mage one at that I never had a problem killing Anders myself. He was a murderer and was spiralling out of control at the end, so for the safety of future innocents he had to die.

[sniper_arrow]

Because I think they were going somewhere with that storyline.

But the reason given in game is because he refuses to fight Hawke for it (and he's no match in a duel with Hawke). He wants Hawke to be the one to do it, probably, as a show of loyalty, and because he holds him personally responsible.

 

Thanks. Looking back, I think Sebastian should've killed Anders if Hawke refuses to do so. It might be his memorable moment. Instead, we got this:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=37eiBVOWtFM

[robertmarilyn]

I never kill Anders because I have only used the murder knife rarely so certainly won't use it on someone who is my friend and/or more. I certainly won't be doing it because Sebastian demands that I do so. Sebastian's self righteousness stops my Hawkes in their tracks, with all his demands. So Anders lives and Sebastian continues to be demanding and self righteous in DAI and I make sure that he never gets what he wants. 

[Catilina]

Fenris and Merrill are fair enough to stand up against Hawke, face to face in battle, if do not agree with him/her, Sebastian, however, just going away and threatens.

[nightscrawl]

I'm not a Sebastian hater, like some on this forum, but I've never felt that his behavior in that scene did him any favors, despite your reasonable and accurate bullet points regarding him.

 

That said, my decision regarding Anders, either friend or rival, is purely based on role-play and has nothing whatsoever to do with Sebastian's deplorable ultimatum. I kill him. People are going to be calling for his head and he seems destined to die either way. The only plays where I have allowed him to live have been in romance plays where I just couldn't go through with it. I consider it a character weakness in that case**, because I still have the same thoughts regarding it.

 

I'd much rather it be by my hand than someone else.

 

I dislike the way the scene plays out and wish Hawke could express more regret. I do have a whole head-canon where I stab him, hold him as he's dying, pet his hair, and say some words -- that kind of thing.

 

 

 

** No, I do not say that it is a weakness in general, for everyone, but only for my character.

 

As far as making a new play with Inquisition in mind... I'd assume that there would just be some lines said by Varric regarding Hawke's LI and when asking Hawke. It's not like the world state changes a great deal. He's referenced once in Asunder, but not by name. Alive or dead, Anders basically fades into obscurity.

 

BUT, you can of course have different war table operations regarding Sebastian if you leave Anders alive, so that might be worth a go if you haven't seen those before. However, I'm not generally inclined to make decisions based on meta information, so that's not something that would factor into my own choice.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Fenris and Merrill are fair enough to stand up against Hawke, face to face in battle, if do not agree with him/her, Sebastian, however, just going away and threatens.

 

How is dying in battle better than walking to live another day?

[robertmarilyn]

I'm not a Sebastian hater, like some on this forum, but I've never felt that his behavior in that scene did him any favors, despite your reasonable and accurate bullet points regarding him.

 

That said, my decision regarding Anders, either friend or rival, is purely based on role-play and has nothing whatsoever to do with Sebastian's deplorable ultimatum. I kill him. People are going to be calling for his head and he seems destined to die either way. The only plays where I have allowed him to live have been in romance plays, where I just couldn't go through with it. I consider it a character weakness in that case**, because I still have the same thoughts regarding it.

 

I'd much rather it be by my hand than someone else.

 

I dislike the way the scene plays out and wish Hawke could express more regret. I do have a whole head-canon where I stab him, hold him as he's dying, pet his hair, and say some words -- that kind of thing.

 

 

 

** No, I do not say that it is a weakness in general, for everyone, but only for my character.

 

As far as making a new play with Inquisition in mind... I'd assume that there would just be some lines said by Varric regarding Hawke's LI and when asking Hawke. It's not like the world state changes a great deal. He's referenced once in Asunder, but not by name. Alive or dead, Anders basically fades into obscurity.

 

BUT, you can of course have different war table operations regarding Sebastian if you leave Anders alive, so that might be worth a go if you haven't seen those before. However, I'm not generally inclined to make decisions based on meta information, so that's not something that would factor into my own choice.

 

You hit on a big problem for me...even though my Hawkes may dally with someone else first, in the end they always end up with an Anders romance. So along with almost never using the murder knife on anyone, in any games, my Hawkes are also dealing with a romanced Anders.  Yeah, that's my excuse.   (In real life, Anders should get the chair, noose, whatever.)

 

I actually take Seb with me a lot, just because he could be likable and I want to like him even more than I do, he's easy on the eyes and I love his voice, but he is so grating on the nerves with his "holier than thou" attitude. He bugs me even worse than Fenris wanting to imprison all mages. 

[Catilina]

How is dying in battle better than walking to live another day?

No. You misunderstood me. The problem is that he had going away, AND threatened with vengeance against Kirkwall (Not the city suffered enough? And why Kirkwall? Why not Hawke directly?). I like the direct solutions usually. Why HE not killed Anders, with his own hand, if he wants Anders' dead (or ask Hawke for it, not blackmailing him!)?

I dont think: Fenris' and Merril's decision are right or smart (especially not that smart). I just think: more fair.