82 réponses à ce sujet

[Fylimar]

Firstly: I'm not a Sebastian hater, he is not my favorite, but I'm ok with him mostly. But I usually let Anders live, because I don't like the thought of my Hakwe becoming a executioner - I'm against death sentence in real life and I do not like t opractice it in a game either - the one eception is that magistrates son, because  he would have probably bee freed again by his father and killed more elf children and you are forced to kill a lot of people in the game, but I find it hard to kill a friend. In most games, I romance Anders, so two reasons to let him live. And I have to agree with Catilina: If Sebastian wants Anders dead, he should do it himself and not forcing Hawke to kill her lover/friend. It would be more honest. To punish a whole city for one mans crime is not what I would ecpect, a religious man would do (idealistical speaking, I know that religious people commited a lot of terrible crimes all through history). I wish that last argument would have been written a bit better, making Sebastian looking less like a maniac and more like a responsible guy - he even could have convinced me to hand over Anders into his custody (at least in the non-romanced playthroughs), if that dialogue would have been a tad different.

[Iakus]

Sebastian is the only character who points out that Anders alone is responsible for blowing up the Chantry, has confessed to it, AND IS STANDING RIGHT THERE DARING YOU TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

 

For that alone he deserves siding with.

 

 But yeah, I do't condone church-bombers so Anders typically gets the murder-knife anyway.

[themikefest]

Its a no brainer.

 

I always side with Sebastian.

 

The moment Anders told me he merged with a spirit, I backed away wanting nothing to do with the guy. I never considered him to be a friend to any of my Hawkes

[robertmarilyn]

Sebastian is the only character who points out that Anders alone is responsible for blowing up the Chantry, has confessed to it, AND IS STANDING RIGHT THERE DARING YOU TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

 

For that alone he deserves siding with.

 

 But yeah, I do't condone church-bombers so Anders typically gets the murder-knife anyway.

 

Oh be quiet you...stop trying to talk sense! 

[Catilina]

Sebastian is the only character who points out that Anders alone is responsible for blowing up the Chantry, has confessed to it, AND IS STANDING RIGHT THERE DARING YOU TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

And: Sebastian the only character, who points out that Kirkwall is responsible for Hawke not executing Anders... What a righteous man! And what a good ruler will be!

 

Do nor forget: Sebastian threatened not Hawke, nor his/her friends, and nor Anders! Sebastien threatened Kirkwall. Its NOT right. Or?

[Iakus]

And: Sebastian the only character, who points out that Kirkwall is responsible for Hawke not executing Anders... What a righteous man! And what a good ruler will be!

 

Do nor forget: Sebastian threatened not Hawke, nor his/her friends, and nor Anders! Sebastien threatened Kirkwall. Its NOT right. Or?

Doesn't really come to that with me, as I leave Anders dead in the street (he usually begging for death at this point anyway)

[Catilina]

Doesn't really come to that with me, as I leave Anders dead in the street (he usually begging for death at this point anyway)

But This should be Hawke'decision (In fact: not his mission to judge Anders). Hawke's mates does not expect this from him, not even Fenris, who do not like Anders so much. They explain their views, but the decision does not affect, they follow or nit follow him/her.

Therefore the question is not that Hawke to executed Anderson or not. The question is: Sebastian's sin tantamount to Anders' sin. (The answer: yes – for me. A military attack requires a lot more innocent civilian lives.)

[sniper_arrow]

And: Sebastian the only character, who points out that Kirkwall is responsible for Hawke not executing Anders... What a righteous man! And what a good ruler will be!

 

Do nor forget: Sebastian threatened not Hawke, nor his/her friends, and nor Anders! Sebastien threatened Kirkwall. Its NOT right. Or?

 

I wonder if this action really shows who Sebastian really is underneath the "holier-than-thou" attitude.

[MichaelN7]

When I first completed DA2, I played as a mage and sided with the mages because "I protect my own!"

I ended up killing Anders out of mercy, but then I found out about Orsino and what he did to my mother, and I suddenly lost a lot of respect for the mages.

 

On another playthrough, I ended up siding with the Templars because Ander's "forced my hand".  My Hawke's reasoning was that the Templars would kill the mages anyway, but if he sided with the Templars, then maybe he could change their minds, since anyone still thinking straight would realize that not ALL mages are like Anders.

 

I was friendly to him almost the whole way through, with a few "what were you thinking?!?" thrown in.  I actually let him go, because in my mind, Hawke had just seen what would have been his best friend betray him in a horrific way, and seeing how "defenseless" Anders was after blowing up the Chantry, I got the impression that Justice had been "burned out" temporarily, so I didn't see him as a threat.

I didn't want to kill anyone, let alone my (former) friend, so instead I told him to get out.

 

As for Sebastian, I do like him, I like his unerring goodness, but if he really wanted Anders executed, he could have just pulled out his bow and *THWIP*, done.

Granted, it would have been difficult to fit that in, considering the real-life events surrounding DA2's development.

But the first nail in that coffin was Sebastian's ultimatum "He dies or I go, and come back to invade Kirkwall."

AS IF IT WAS MY FAULT?!?

After all the aid I gave him... finding and avenging his family's murderers, finding his grandfather's bow, helping him reinvigorate his faith... he doesn't stop to consider the fact that I DO NOT agree with what Ander's has done, and while I understand his anger, trying to make the rest of Kirkwall suffer for it as well (because I haven't gone through enough crap as it is) just, just, it's THIS close to being an outright betrayal.

If he's going to so callously throw away our friendship, and endanger even MORE innocents then I suppose we were never friends to begin with.

 

The second nail in that coffin was Anders showing up again, after I had sided with the Templars.  I tried one last time to persuade him to make this right, and he just throws it in my face, saying he can't be asked to slaughter mages.

Oh?

So the innocent people you just incinerated in a CHURCH of all places?

I like Diplomatic-Hawke's response here:  "You gave up the high ground when you blew up the Chantry!"

It's almost the same as Aggressive-Hawke, which goes to show that while Sarcastic-Hawke may be... something else, Diplomatic and Aggressive have a bit more in common than one would think.

 

So then the battle commences, and in a case of poetic "justice" (heh, double pun), my finishing move is an upgraded Fireball (my "go-to" move) followed up with a fully upgraded Fist of the Maker. (like a judge's hammer)

In my Hawke's mind:  *You want justice?  Then feel what you've inflicted, and face it!*

 

So while it's the most tragic on a meta-level, it makes the most sense for the kind of Hawke I am.

Pro mage, but not anti-Templar, but then Orsino reveals his crimes and I support the Templars.  Of course, Meredith didn't do much better, so I had to kill her too.

DA2 is a tragic tale.  There is no happy ending (that doesn't happen until Inquisition).

[Catilina]

[...]

DA2 is a tragic tale.  There is no happy ending (that doesn't happen until Inquisition).

Orsino guilty / mad? So what are Meredith? "She's howling at the bloody moon!" (by Anders) Neither side is "good" nor "bad". Both are mad. One (templars) of paranoia and power, the other (mages) with fear and bondage. I tend to prefer to support the oppressed. And the "good" Templars, for example Cullen had no effect on Meredith.

 

True

[vertigomez]

Been listening to some of their banter today...

Spoiler

Sebastian: You've made no secret of your intent to lead the mages here in revolution.
Anders: Well, I've tried not to shout it from the rooftops. You've just been around when I talk with my friends.
Sebastian: Well, as we have mutual friends—who for some reason don't want you to get hurt—let me tell you this: if you go forward with this revolt, the Chantry will bring its full might to bear. They will kill you.
Anders: Andraste was killed. That doesn't mean she failed.
Sebastian: Do not compare yourself to Andraste.


Anders: Go ahead. Say it.
Sebastian: Say what?
Anders: I saw you watching me.
Sebastian: I was looking at the clouds.
Anders: Don't give me that. I know you've been judging me. You think I'm out of control. How can I claim to speak for mages when I'm half demon myself?
Sebastian: The one over there looks a bit like a bunny rabbit.

Tell both of them to go **** themselves.

That would be ideal, yes.

But yeah. It's not just that Hawke was an enabler, but might have actively participated, if you agreed to help. Anders is taking the blame/fall, but I think it's implied Seb suspects Hawke is complicit, even if he can't prove it. He has banter dialogue asking if Hawke knew what Anders wanted with the Chantry. So killing Anders is an ultimatum for his trust/loyalty.

Ahh, I see. Well, that works for me I guess, since my Hawke does pretty well blame himself. He did distract the Gland Cleric, even if he chewed Anders out for hiding things from him beforehand... tsk, tsk.

I'm not a Sebastian hater, like some on this forum, but I've never felt that his behavior in that scene did him any favors, despite your reasonable and accurate bullet points regarding him.
 
That said, my decision regarding Anders, either friend or rival, is purely based on role-play and has nothing whatsoever to do with Sebastian's deplorable ultimatum. I kill him. People are going to be calling for his head and he seems destined to die either way. The only plays where I have allowed him to live have been in romance plays where I just couldn't go through with it. I consider it a character weakness in that case**, because I still have the same thoughts regarding it.
 
I'd much rather it be by my hand than someone else.
 
I dislike the way the scene plays out and wish Hawke could express more regret. I do have a whole head-canon where I stab him, hold him as he's dying, pet his hair, and say some words -- that kind of thing.
 
 
 
** No, I do not say that it is a weakness in general, for everyone, but only for my character.
 
As far as making a new play with Inquisition in mind... I'd assume that there would just be some lines said by Varric regarding Hawke's LI and when asking Hawke. It's not like the world state changes a great deal. He's referenced once in Asunder, but not by name. Alive or dead, Anders basically fades into obscurity.
 
BUT, you can of course have different war table operations regarding Sebastian if you leave Anders alive, so that might be worth a go if you haven't seen those before. However, I'm not generally inclined to make decisions based on meta information, so that's not something that would factor into my own choice.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! This is what I'm kind of leaning towards, now... it's just trying to get into my Hawke's head and figuring out his priorities... it's haaaard. And I'm mostly trying to base this information on what Hawke has available in the moment - namely Sebastian's big declarations.

I think no matter what happens Hawke's gonna be a sad, guilty potato.

Sebastian is the only character who points out that Anders alone is responsible for blowing up the Chantry, has confessed to it, AND IS STANDING RIGHT THERE DARING YOU TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

I do like his conversation in the Gallows where he talks about how the Chantry can't tolerate the abuses that've been going on in the Circle, and how the mages there aren't Anders.

[Catilina]

Summa summarum: I like the character of Sebastian, but mostly I do not like his attitude. Anders likeable to me.

[Sah291]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! This is what I'm kind of leaning towards, now... it's just trying to get into my Hawke's head and figuring out his priorities... it's haaaard. And I'm mostly trying to base this information on what Hawke has available in the moment - namely Sebastian's big declarations.
I think no matter what happens Hawke's gonna be a sad, guilty potato.

Well what kind of moral system does Hawke have? Does he prioritize principles/rules, or people/loyalty? It depends how you play Hawke of course, but I always thought the way Hawke is written, he has much more of an honor based morality type...and less of a lawful one.

Which makes sense when you think Hawke grew up on the run in an family of apostates, got started in Kirkwall's criminal underworld, and did a lot of under the table work for Aveline, etc. It really comes out in Hawke's interactions with the Qunari also.

So the way I see it, Hawke is willing to break the law, if necessary, to protect something or someone he cares about. Whether that means breaking Bethany out of the circle, dueling the Arishok for Isabella, or standing by Anders or Sebastian, depending which one he was more aligned with.

[RoseLawliet]

Well what kind of moral system does Hawke have? Does he prioritize principles/rules, or people/loyalty? It depends how you play Hawke of course, but I always thought the way Hawke is written, he has much more of an honor based morality type...and less of a lawful one.

Which makes sense when you think Hawke grew up on the run in an family of apostates, got started in Kirkwall's criminal underworld, and did a lot of under the table work for Aveline, etc. It really comes out in Hawke's interactions with the Qunari also.

So the way I see it, Hawke is willing to break the law, if necessary, to protect something or someone he cares about. Whether that means breaking Bethany out of the circle, dueling the Arishok for Isabella, or standing by Anders or Sebastian, depending which one he was more aligned with.

 

Hawke is absolutely willing to break the law. Simply by keeping Isabela around (you know, the pirate) demonstrates this.

 

Spoiler

It always annoys me that people focus so much on Anders' flaws and shortcomings, yet everyone else's less than stellar moments are ignored or only given a minimum of scrutiny.

 

Anders does what he thinks will help mages in general in the long run. He never denies getting there will be difficult.

Sebastian tries to live his life by the Chantry's principles, yet breaks his vows because he's actually human under the preachy exterior.

Merrill tries to help her clan, yet they can all end up dead if you say one wrong thing.

Isabela... is Isabela. She runs away with the one item that can stop an army of angry Qunari from razing Kirkwall (and may or may not come back, acting like a hero).

Varric is a shady character. Most people seem to forget this.

Aveline is the guard-captain who runs off with Hawke as often as she pleases and complicates the chain of command with Donnic.

Fenris is classist (get it? Because RPG classes?) against mages, with a Freudian excuse that may or may not be sufficient.

[Qun00]

Anders is a little like Erimond from DAI. He takes away all the fun from killing him by telling you that he likes the idea.

[Catilina]

Hawke is absolutely willing to break the law. Simply by keeping Isabela around (you know, the pirate) demonstrates this.

 

My Hawkes (and most characters) absolutly lawful: all of them has his own law... and to abide by (mostly).

[vertigomez]

Well what kind of moral system does Hawke have? Does he prioritize principles/rules, or people/loyalty? It depends how you play Hawke of course, but I always thought the way Hawke is written, he has much more of an honor based morality type...and less of a lawful one.

Which makes sense when you think Hawke grew up on the run in an family of apostates, got started in Kirkwall's criminal underworld, and did a lot of under the table work for Aveline, etc. It really comes out in Hawke's interactions with the Qunari also.

So the way I see it, Hawke is willing to break the law, if necessary, to protect something or someone he cares about. Whether that means breaking Bethany out of the circle, dueling the Arishok for Isabella, or standing by Anders or Sebastian, depending which one he was more aligned with.

Ohhh, yes, I'd certainly agree. I played Hawke as more or less a Chaotic Good character, smuggling apostates and helping the helpless in equal turn. But I don't think he had a cause like Anders did - he never wanted to lead a rebellion or change the world, and I guess you could say his inaction was his ultimate sin. He pulled an Elthina or a Malcolm whenever he could, just wanted to get by without getting overly involved... but occasionally couldn't help but, well, help.

So I have no problem with law-flouting Hawke. It's more that I can't decide whether or not he's willing to put Anders above Kirkwall, or his own distaste for conflict above the mages' plight.

Gyuehh potato friggin Batman crap.

[RoseLawliet]

My Hawkes (and most characters) absolutly lawful: all of them has his own law... and to abide by (mostly).

 

I'm curious, then. How do your Hawkes react to the Arishok 1. claiming the elves as converts and saying Kirkwall can't deal with them and 2. attacking the city? Do you allow everyone to have their "own law"? (Not trying to be confrontational. Genuinely curious.)

[Catilina]

I'm curious, then. How do your Hawkes react to the Arishok 1. claiming the elves as converts and saying Kirkwall can't deal with them and 2. attacking the city? Do you allow everyone to have their "own law"? (Not trying to be confrontational. Genuinely curious.)

 

Hawke's reaction:

//indavideo.hu/video/DA2_Qunari_scene

 

(He agreed with Arishok. The elves did as they were forced. But he needed to ask Aveline also. "Audiatur et altera pars!" Since Aveline are his friend, he tries to help her, but can not wholeheartedly)

[Sah291]

Ohhh, yes, I'd certainly agree. I played Hawke as more or less a Chaotic Good character, smuggling apostates and helping the helpless in equal turn. But I don't think he had a cause like Anders did - he never wanted to lead a rebellion or change the world, and I guess you could say his inaction was his ultimate sin. He pulled an Elthina or a Malcolm whenever he could, just wanted to get by without getting overly involved... but occasionally couldn't help but, well, help.
So I have no problem with law-flouting Hawke. It's more that I can't decide whether or not he's willing to put Anders above Kirkwall, or his own distaste for conflict above the mages' plight.
Gyuehh potato friggin Batman crap.

Well then I think you answered your own question. What was Anders to Hawke? Someone willing to fight for, or someone who dragged him into something he never wanted?

When Anders comes in and tells Hawke he has to choose, he's saying he has to get off the fence and decide already what is important to him... And this mirrors Seb's ultimatium, who is basically saying the same thing.

I look at it this way. The decision over starting a conflict is already out of Hawke's hands by that point. That decision has been made. So then its about who Hawke is going to support.

[sniper_arrow]

Hawke is absolutely willing to break the law. Simply by keeping Isabela around (you know, the pirate) demonstrates this.

 

Spoiler

It always annoys me that people focus so much on Anders' flaws and shortcomings, yet everyone else's less than stellar moments are ignored or only given a minimum of scrutiny.

 

Anders does what he thinks will help mages in general in the long run. He never denies getting there will be difficult.

Sebastian tries to live his life by the Chantry's principles, yet breaks his vows because he's actually human under the preachy exterior.

Merrill tries to help her clan, yet they can all end up dead if you say one wrong thing.

Isabela... is Isabela. She runs away with the one item that can stop an army of angry Qunari from razing Kirkwall (and may or may not come back, acting like a hero).

Varric is a shady character. Most people seem to forget this.

Aveline is the guard-captain who runs off with Hawke as often as she pleases and complicates the chain of command with Donnic.

Fenris is classist (get it? Because RPG classes?) against mages, with a Freudian excuse that may or may not be sufficient.

 

In Fenris's defense, he was abused by his master and knew first hand what the corrupt magisters were capable of.

 

Everyone had already discussed the companions' flaws in full detail, such as Merrill and Aveline. You may want to backtrack here in the boards.

[RoseLawliet]

In Fenris's defense, he was abused by his master and knew first hand what the corrupt magisters were capable of.

 

Everyone had already discussed the companions' flaws in full detail, such as Merrill and Aveline. You may want to backtrack here in the boards.

 

I know that's Fenris' excuse, which I said may or may not be sufficient. I friend him, but still lean toward the latter.

[Fylimar]

Well then I think you answered your own question. What was Anders to Hawke? Someone willing to fight for, or someone who dragged him into something he never wanted?

When Anders comes in and tells Hawke he has to choose, he's saying he has to get off the fence and decide already what is important to him... And this mirrors Seb's ultimatium, who is basically saying the same thing.

I look at it this way. The decision over starting a conflict is already out of Hawke's hands by that point. That decision has been made. So then its about who Hawke is going to support.

 

I agree. For me, it's always a personal decision too. I never play lawful characters and I find myself basing my characters decisions mostly on personal liking or disliking. My HAwkes especially tend to be chaotic in their decisions and more often than not selfish. So if they romance or befriend Anders, they don't careif Sebastian wants him dead for blowing up the church, because that would mean to sacrifice a friend or lover - simple human reaction. Hawke is ideal for plaxing her that way. I always find a very lawful Hawke a bit out of character, but that is of course only personal opinion

[huyre]

I had already distanced myself from Anders, because I thought he was being suspicious. When Hawke told him that being friends does not mean you can still have disagreements, Anders gave me attitude. And he ended up saying he is used to being alone, that he always was. Years of support and friendship, allowing him to put his manifesto in every single book in Hawke’s mansion, listening to him even though almost every chat we had was about mage oppression… And this is my thanks ;_;
 

To be fair, Anders does care for those he hold close. He never told Hawke anything of his plan, so he would not be a conscious participant in the deaths of many… Even though I did feel like I contributed anyway, by helping him look for the ingredients =/ I also wonder if maybe he was a bit worried that Hawke would stop him.

 

But a friendship Anders is terribly deluded; he believes he will become a martyr, his name a rallying cry for mages everywhere. He couldn’t even see that he did nothing for mages; he aided Meredith in every way (and mages who became desperate used blood magic and became abominations, the two things Anders detests).

 

Sebastian blackmailed me at the end when I first wanted Anders to just go away (I didn’t want to be an executioner). I did not appreciate him suddenly (ab)using his power when he had no interest in returning to Starkhaven (in that playthrough). But Kirkwall did not deserve first the Qunari, then Meredith followed up by Sebastian invading. So murder knife it was.

 

I personally do not see Sebastian simply as a pious, friendly guy. I always felt some discomfort with him; he is vengeful. Once he gets angry, he makes it a grudge and only finds solutions in violence. Like when Elthina tries to talk him out of revenge, he shoots an arrow in the poster she is holding, which I found threatening (and she is a mother figure to him). And he insists on murdering the assassins. He does not bother to find out who was pulling the strings, he just wants instant gratification and wants to see blood, executions (preferably performed by others by his request).

At the end as well; his anger can only be quelled by violent revenge. Not even aimed at those responsible if you let Anders go (he could kill or hunt Anders, but no, Kirkwall has to suffer).

[Lady Artifice]

I'm not a Sebastian hater, like some on this forum, but I've never felt that his behavior in that scene did him any favors, despite your reasonable and accurate bullet points regarding him.

 

That said, my decision regarding Anders, either friend or rival, is purely based on role-play and has nothing whatsoever to do with Sebastian's deplorable ultimatum. I kill him. People are going to be calling for his head and he seems destined to die either way. The only plays where I have allowed him to live have been in romance plays where I just couldn't go through with it. I consider it a character weakness in that case**, because I still have the same thoughts regarding it.

 

I'd much rather it be by my hand than someone else.

 

I dislike the way the scene plays out and wish Hawke could express more regret. I do have a whole head-canon where I stab him, hold him as he's dying, pet his hair, and say some words -- that kind of thing.

 

I like this quite a bit. If they had actually designed an alternate tone for that scene, something a little more personal than stabbing him in the back and walking away, it would have meant a lot for me when it came to the ending. As it was, I usually played through in a state of perpetual irritation.