44 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabooooom]

Well if we're just throwing concepts out there that we would like to see, I wouldn't mind seeing a purely organic alien species that can strip a entire planet of life in a matter of months, not unlike the Tyranids of WH40K.


Reapers got nothing on them


Tyranid Planetary Assimilation:

Day 00 Initial mycetic spores are dropped, generally containing Lictors or Genestealers. Infiltration force led by a synapse creature of some kind; reproduction of Tyranid creatures likely begins immediately.

Day 09 By day 9, Tyranids will have expand to around 200 km from the drop point, and will likely present a significant threat to planetary defense and resident Imperial Guard forces.

Day 13 Tyranids will have expand to 700 km from the drop point; may begin infesting local water sources.

Day 37 Tyranids control area within 2000 km radius of the drop point; basolithic infestation to 5000 km radius.

Day 48 Tyranid population growth skyrockets, with population doubling approximately every 2.5 days.

Day 50 Main Hive Fleet arrives, craft generally number around 1.5 billion. Psychic contact with planet is cut off by the shadow of the Hive Mind. Any attempts to escape are quickly stopped by the Hive Fleet.

Day 51 Primary consumption of bio-mass begins (resistance has generally been eliminated by day 51). Brood ships land, releasing Ripper swears, which consume all remaining organic material and deposit them at the reclamation pools. Capillary Towers (and the Brood ships) send the material into orbit.

Day 80 The hive ships descend into the upper atmosphere and begin collecting it. Reduction in atmospheric pressure causes oceans to boil away, which are also collected. Lack of oceans causes plate tectonic shifts, dramatically increasing volcanic activity. Upon completion, the Hive Fleet moves out of the system in search of fresh prey.

Day 100 The Imperial Navy arrives in respond to the distress call to find the world lifeless.

This sounds very similar to The Flood though...

It would also strain credulity that an alien parasitic species could assimilate biomass from diverse alien species that may utilize completely different biochemistry.

But I do like the idea of a rapidly reproducing alien species that can survive in diverse environments. Something like that could be expected to swarm across the galaxy like a plague. Like the Rachni did, or the Krogan. The mathematics of population growth and limited resources demands it. When it happens on a galactic scale, some interesting moral choices could be involved. It would be an interesting perspective too - such species aren't evil, they are just doing what their biology forces them to.

[Erstus]

And you get Paragon/Renegade options with them.
Paragon Ryder: *facepalm* I'm not your god (sighs) it harnesses mass effect fields to remove plaque.....No, don't worship the toothbrush......
Renegade Ryder: Alright listen up! I'm your new god, so what I say goes. *shoots someone* See this? Magic stick, now move your asses or I'll make your volcano explode.

Yes - I want to be the Hernan Cortes of the galaxy.

[Laughing_Man]

Well if we're just throwing concepts out there that we would like to see, I wouldn't mind seeing a purely organic alien species that can strip a entire planet of life in a matter of months, not unlike the Tyranids of WH40K. 

 

 

Reapers got nothing on them 

 

Well, EA kinda already did that with Dead Space and the Xenomorphs.

[Vortex13]

This sounds very similar to The Flood though...

It would also strain credulity that an alien parasitic species could assimilate biomass from diverse alien species that may utilize completely different biochemistry.

But I do like the idea of a rapidly reproducing alien species that can survive in diverse environments. Something like that could be expected to swarm across the galaxy like a plague. Like the Rachni did, or the Krogan. The mathematics of population growth and limited resources demands it. When it happens on a galactic scale, some interesting moral choices could be involved. It would be an interesting perspective too - such species aren't evil, they are just doing what their biology forces them to.

 

 

The Tyranids aren't really parasitic though, they're more ultra predators built around genetic modification. The Flood needs a host to grow and breed, the Tyranids just eat you and then (possibly) incorporate useful traits into their genetic database.   Though I do agree that, mechanically, the two aliens are very similar. 

 

I think that the real distinction between a species like this and something like the Krogan and Rachni though would be the scale of their numbers, as well as their intrinsic antithesis to life as we know it. The Rachni and the Krogan could be reasoned with (eventually), you can't even comprehend something like the Hive Mind (in a good way); the collective thoughts of quintillions of organisms who's base desire, and truly only purpose in life, is to feed.

[Kabooooom]

The Tyranids aren't really parasitic though, they're more ultra predators built around genetic modification. The Flood needs a host to grow and breed, the Tyranids just eat you and then (possibly) incorporate useful traits into their genetic database. Though I do agree that, mechanically, the two aliens are very similar.

I think that the real distinction between a species like this and something like the Krogan and Rachni though would be the scale of their numbers, as well as their intrinsic antithesis to life as we know it. The Rachni and the Krogan could be reasoned with (eventually), you can't even comprehend something like the Hive Mind (in a good way); the collective thoughts of quintillions of organisms who's base desire, and truly only purpose in life, is to feed.

Ohhh you just brought up something that is absolutely the #1 thing I want in Andromeda - the incomprehensibility of an alien species. Imagine finding an intelligent alien species in real life. The probability that their psychology would be even remotely similar to a bunch of relatively hairless apes from Earth is probably miniscule. And there would be a fear of confronting a species that is hostile solely because they can't comprehend your position, and you can't reason with them either. The original way the Reapers were portrayed was similar to this - beyond comprehension.

But a more appropriate example would probably be the Formics from Enders Game. Mass Effect blatantly borrowed the Rachni from the Formics, but they didnt really go into their psychology the same way. In Ender's Game, they had a hive mind and thus the perspective of the value of individual life was something that just didnt exist for them. So they killed humans, and didnt find this morally wrong. They couldn't comprehend it. That doesn't make them evil, just different, and arguably their extinction was far more evil (hence the overarching plot of the Ender series which is heavily referenced in Mass Effect with the Rachni).

Stuff like that creates interesting dichotomies, stories, and moral choices.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well if we're just throwing concepts out there that we would like to see, I wouldn't mind seeing a purely organic alien species that can strip a entire planet of life in a matter of months, not unlike the Tyranids of WH40K. 

 

They really aren't that big a deal once you realize that their hive fleets can be defeated openly.

 

Heck my boys the Tau obliterated Gorgon inside a decade   (its impressive for WH)

 

Sure, its just one tendril the parasite fanboys scream, but I am like brohan ._. It doesn't matter, the hive proper WILL never arrive, because it would introduce a threat on par with Chaos itself, and the WH universe as a whole is incapable of even dealing with the fallout of the Horus bs from millennium ago. That said o.o

 

I do hope for renewed conflict between the Imperium and Empire, the Tau need a good war to advance in tech, while they have some killer battle stations and orbital platforms, their navy is the worst one in the franchise but they have the second best air and ground units so...*shrugs* toss up.

[Vortex13]

Ohhh you just brought up something that is absolutely the #1 thing I want in Andromeda - the incomprehensibility of an alien species. Imagine finding an intelligent alien species in real life. The probability that their psychology would be even remotely similar to a bunch of relatively hairless apes from Earth is probably miniscule. And there would be a fear of confronting a species that is hostile solely because they can't comprehend your position, and you can't reason with them either. The original way the Reapers were portrayed was similar to this - beyond comprehension.

But a more appropriate example would probably be the Formics from Enders Game. Mass Effect blatantly borrowed the Rachni from the Formics, but they didnt really go into their psychology the same way. In Ender's Game, they had a hive mind and thus the perspective of the value of individual life was something that just didnt exist for them. So they killed humans, and didnt find this morally wrong. They couldn't comprehend it. That doesn't make them evil, just different, and arguably their extinction was far more evil (hence the overarching plot of the Ender series which is heavily referenced in Mass Effect with the Rachni).

Stuff like that creates interesting dichotomies, stories, and moral choices.

 

 

Agreed, I would love to see and interact with more 'alien' aliens in this series. If hostilities are a given outcome, than I want it to be because of something operating on a completely different outlook compared to us, not just being "LOL EVIL" like the Reapers. 

 

 

A perfect example of this is Peter Watts' novel Blindsight. Blindsight was an excellent science fiction exploration of the concepts of intelligences vs. consciousness as well as being one of the few narratives I've seen to depict an 'alien' intelligence without resorting to the whole "Beyond our comprehension" copout either Plus the aliens in this story, the Scramblers, had a motivation that could be viewed as sympathetic in the light of an intelligence wholly foreign to our own.

 

I would like to see BioWare look towards concepts like this when creating new aliens for Mass Effect: Andromeda

 

Here's an except from the novel that sums up the Scramblers, and their motivation perfectly:

Spoiler

Imagine you're a scrambler.

Imagine you have intellect but no insight, agendas but no awareness. Your circuitry hums with strategies for survival and persistence, flexible, intelligent, even technological - but no other circuitry monitors it. You can think of anything, yet are conscious of nothing.

You can't imagine such a being can you? The term being doesn't even seem to apply, in some fundamental way you can't quite put your finger on.

Try.

Imagine that you encounter a signal. It is structured, and dense with information. It meets all the criteria of an intelligent transmission. Evolution and experience offer a variety of paths to follow, branch-points in the flowcharts that handle such input. Sometimes these signals come from conspecifics who have useful information to share, whose lives you'll defend according to the rules of kin selection. Sometimes they come from competitors or predators or other inimical entities that must be avoided or destroyed; in those cases, the information may prove of significant tactical value. Some signals may even arise from entities which, while not kin, can still serve as allies or symbionts in mutually beneficial pursuits. You can derive appropriate responses for any of these eventualities, and many others.

You decode the signals, and stumble:

I had a great time. I really enjoyed him. Even if he cost twice as much as any other hooker in the dome-

To fully appreciate Kesey's Quartet-

They hate us for our freedom-

Pay attention now-

Understand.

There are no meaningful translations for these terms. They are needlessly recursive. They contain no usable intelligence, yet they are structured intelligently; there is no chance they could have arisen by chance.

The only explanation is that something has coded nonsense in a way that poses as a useful message; only after wasting time and effort does the deception become apparent. The signal functions to consume the resources of a recipient for zero payoff and reduced fitness. The signal is a virus.

Viruses do not arise from kin, symbionts, or other allies.

The signal is an attack.

And it's coming from right about there.

*

"Now you get it," Sascha said.

I shook my head, trying to wrap it around that insane, impossible conclusion. "They're not even hostile." Not even capable of hostility. Just so profoundly alien that they couldn't help but treat human language itself as a form of combat.

How do you say We come in peace when the very words are an act of war?

[Kabooooom]

Agreed, I would love to see and interact with more 'alien' aliens in this series. If hostilities are a given outcome, than I want it to be because of something operating on a completely different outlook compared to us, not just being "LOL EVIL" like the Reapers.


A perfect example of this is Peter Watts' novel Blindsight. Blindsight was an excellent science fiction exploration of the concepts of intelligences vs. consciousness as well as being one of the few narratives I've seen to depict an 'alien' intelligence without resorting to the whole "Beyond our comprehension" copout either Plus the aliens in this story, the Scramblers, had a motivation that could be viewed as sympathetic in the light of an intelligence wholly foreign to our own.

I would like to see BioWare look towards concepts like this when creating new aliens for Mass Effect: Andromeda

Here's an except from the novel that sums up the Scramblers, and their motivation perfectly:

Spoiler

Imagine you're a scrambler.

Imagine you have intellect but no insight, agendas but no awareness. Your circuitry hums with strategies for survival and persistence, flexible, intelligent, even technological - but no other circuitry monitors it. You can think of anything, yet are conscious of nothing.

You can't imagine such a being can you? The term being doesn't even seem to apply, in some fundamental way you can't quite put your finger on.

Try.

Imagine that you encounter a signal. It is structured, and dense with information. It meets all the criteria of an intelligent transmission. Evolution and experience offer a variety of paths to follow, branch-points in the flowcharts that handle such input. Sometimes these signals come from conspecifics who have useful information to share, whose lives you'll defend according to the rules of kin selection. Sometimes they come from competitors or predators or other inimical entities that must be avoided or destroyed; in those cases, the information may prove of significant tactical value. Some signals may even arise from entities which, while not kin, can still serve as allies or symbionts in mutually beneficial pursuits. You can derive appropriate responses for any of these eventualities, and many others.

You decode the signals, and stumble:

I had a great time. I really enjoyed him. Even if he cost twice as much as any other hooker in the dome-

To fully appreciate Kesey's Quartet-

They hate us for our freedom-

Pay attention now-

Understand.

There are no meaningful translations for these terms. They are needlessly recursive. They contain no usable intelligence, yet they are structured intelligently; there is no chance they could have arisen by chance.

The only explanation is that something has coded nonsense in a way that poses as a useful message; only after wasting time and effort does the deception become apparent. The signal functions to consume the resources of a recipient for zero payoff and reduced fitness. The signal is a virus.

Viruses do not arise from kin, symbionts, or other allies.

The signal is an attack.

And it's coming from right about there.

*

"Now you get it," Sascha said.

I shook my head, trying to wrap it around that insane, impossible conclusion. "They're not even hostile." Not even capable of hostility. Just so profoundly alien that they couldn't help but treat human language itself as a form of combat.

How do you say We come in peace when the very words are an act of war?

Interesting. I think you may have mentioned this to me before in a previous discussion, and I think (unless I'm imagining this entire transaction, lol) that I said as a neuroscientist, his terminology of "intellect without consciousness" is contradictory to me, as by modern definition you can't think of anything at all if you aren't first conscious to do the thinking in the first place. Consciousness (sentience, awareness of qualia) is a necessary pre-requisite to sapience.

That said, the leading modern theory of consciousness is Tononi's Integrated Information Theory, by far, and you can actually predict with that theory that you could construct a highly "intelligent" machine that was unconscious and had zero awareness solely due to feed forward processing. This would be equivalent in concept to the VIs of Mass Effect (the writers, mostly L'Etoile, handled artificial intelligence VERY realistically in Mass Effect, believe it or not. It's my favorite part of the series) . AIs require, in that theory, integration of information to be aware, specifically. It's one of the most powerful aspects of his theory. Not only can we predict the presence or absence of consciousness in living beings (which he has already done with comatose, anesthetized and locked in patients), you can even predict the presence or absence of it in synthetic beings - all mathematically.

So in that sense, the aliens in that book could make perfect sense, by how I am understanding the description of them.

[Vortex13]

They really aren't that big a deal once you realize that their hive fleets can be defeated openly.

 

Heck my boys the Tau obliterated Gorgon inside a decade   (its impressive for WH)

 

Sure, its just one tendril the parasite fanboys scream, but I am like brohan ._. It doesn't matter, the hive proper WILL never arrive, because it would introduce a threat on par with Chaos itself, and the WH universe as a whole is incapable of even dealing with the fallout of the Horus bs from millennium ago. That said o.o

 

I do hope for renewed conflict between the Imperium and Empire, the Tau need a good war to advance in tech, while they have some killer battle stations and orbital platforms, their navy is the worst one in the franchise but they have the second best air and ground units so...*shrugs* toss up.

 

 

Defeated only with the help of the Imperium of Man, and it was one of the smaller hive fleets to arrive. Tyranids are really great at bringing people together like that though, heck they got the Blood Angels and the Necrons to buddy up.

 

Plus space combat really isn't the Tyranids' forte, once they have an infestation started it is really hard to remove them, and nine times out of ten the only recourse is exterminatus. 

[Vortex13]

Interesting. I think you may have mentioned this to me before in a previous discussion, and I think (unless I'm imagining this entire transaction, lol) that I said as a neuroscientist, his terminology of "intellect without consciousness" is contradictory to me, as by modern definition you can't think of anything at all if you aren't first conscious to do the thinking in the first place. Consciousness (sentience, awareness of qualia) is a necessary pre-requisite to sapience.

That said, the leading modern theory of consciousness is Tononi's Integrated Information Theory, by far, and you can actually predict with that theory that you could construct a highly "intelligent" machine that was unconscious and had zero awareness solely due to feed forward processing. This would be equivalent in concept to the VIs of Mass Effect (the writers, mostly L'Etoile, handled artificial intelligence VERY realistically in Mass Effect, believe it or not. It's my favorite part of the series) . AIs require, in that theory, integration of information to be aware, specifically. It's one of the most powerful aspects of his theory. Not only can we predict the presence or absence of consciousness in living beings (which he has already done with comatose, anesthetized and locked in patients), you can even predict the presence or absence of it in synthetic beings - all mathematically.

So in that sense, the aliens in that book could make perfect sense, by how I am understanding the description of them.

 

 

Yeah we had the discussion before in another thread, I just really like the Scramblers and the lore behind them 

 

EDIT:

Aside from their unique information processes, the book did a really good job of exploring how the humans and Scramblers studied each other. On one hand, you have the account of how the human astronauts capture and then physically torture members of the species in order to understand the Scrabler's reaction to and processing of stimuli, but then you have the Scramblers almost geometric understanding of human physiology the longer we interacted with them.

[Kabooooom]

Yeah we had the discussion before in another thread, I just really like the Scramblers and the lore behind them

This is why I liked the Geth in Mass Effect, although they were actually sentient (and collectively sapient). I am all for synthetic antagonists, although I realize people would be irritated if Andromeda repeats that same plot. But I think it should factor heavily into the plot of Andromeda, otherwise Bioware would be retroactively admitting that the Starchild was full of ****. Ie- if there was no cycle, synthetics should dominate Andromeda. If they dont, it would require explanation.

[Master Warder Z_]

Defeated only with the help of the Imperium of Man

 

Debatable as all heck considering that Gorgon was operating in the central territory of the Tau Empire, aka what they were facing in actual combat was just regional forces and not the entire might of the Tau, plus the Tau pushed for that alliance, the Imperium were the one's who were hesitant about it, I mean it makes sense in context because the Tau want a hegemony but...anyway this also goes back to the debacle of the Gulf Crusade which saw the Imperium get their asses handed to them when they tried to reconquer the Tau territories, I mean I just look at the events surrounding this little sector of space in this period of time and I think.

 

Gorgon got off lucky, they didn't have to deal with half the might of the Empire.

 

 

Plus space combat really isn't the Tyranids' forte

 

It really ain't the Tau's either. Like I said they got some great orbital stations and space defenses, but their fleet is garbage but they make up for it with planetary units that are second only elite Imperium units, I mean and even that's a matter of debate.

 

Plus railguns

[Kabooooom]

Yeah we had the discussion before in another thread, I just really like the Scramblers and the lore behind them

EDIT:
Aside from their unique information processes, the book did a really good job of exploring how the humans and Scramblers studied each other. On one hand, you have the account of how the human astronauts capture and then physically torture members of the species in order to understand the Scrabler's reaction to and processing of stimuli, but then you have the Scramblers almost geometric understanding of human physiology the longer we interacted with them.

Sadly, I think this is a very realistic depiction of what we would probably do if we ever encountered alien life. Human beings are endlessly curious, but the problem has always been that while we are empathic, we are not endlessly empathic, especially to those outside of our tribal circle. We are a conflicted species, full of love and hate. Much closer to the way Chimps behave than Bonobos.

[Vortex13]

Sadly, I think this is a very realistic depiction of what we would probably do if we ever encountered alien life. Human beings are endlessly curious, but the problem has always been that while we are empathic, we are not endlessly empathic, especially to those outside of our tribal circle. We are a conflicted species, full of love and hate. Much closer to the way Chimps behave than Bonobos.

 

 

It was really well done (I thought at any rate) in this book, because at first the human scientists didn't believe they were actually causing pain to the aliens, since they weren't conscious and so they assumed that the Scramblers were just akin to white blood cells of their space craft. When they realized what the Scramblers were though, they had a moral dilemma about it, but by that time, they realized that the alien's intentions for Earth weren't exactly friendly, and they needed to find any possible weaknesses in their physiology. And while all this is going on, you come to realize that the Scrambler captives have been studying the human scientists, gaining insight into our weaknesses and physiology.

 

 

All in all, it was a really great example of how to showcase a morally dubious scenario without painting one side as wholly innocent. 

[Vortex13]

Debatable as all heck considering that Gorgon was operating in the central territory of the Tau Empire, aka what they were facing in actual combat was just regional forces and not the entire might of the Tau, plus the Tau pushed for that alliance, the Imperium were the one's who were hesitant about it, I mean it makes sense in context because the Tau want a hegemony but...anyway this also goes back to the debacle of the Gulf Crusade which saw the Imperium get their asses handed to them when they tried to reconquer the Tau territories, I mean I just look at the events surrounding this little sector of space in this period of time and I think.

 

Gorgon got off lucky, they didn't have to deal with half the might of the Empire.

 

 

 

It really ain't the Tau's either. Like I said they got some great orbital stations and space defenses, but their fleet is garbage but they make up for it with planetary units that are second only elite Imperium units, I mean and even that's a matter of debate.

 

Plus railguns

 

 

 

The Tau are interesting in WH40K lore in that they can hold their own, but when compared to other races of the setting, they could easily be wiped out if any one of the various species focused their sole attention on them. 

 

 

The Gulf Crusade would have ended completely differently if the Tyranids hadn't been munching on the Imperiums worlds, and wasn't making a be line for Ward's favorite space marines' home planet. Your welcome for that by the way. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The Gulf Crusade would have ended completely differently if the Tyranids hadn't been munching on the Imperiums worlds, and wasn't making a be line for Ward's favorite space marines

 

*snorts*

 

You keep thinking that, it was the Tau that let the Imperium's military forces even leave to go fight the nids at the conclusion of the crusade, I mean it was the Imperium who strolled into the Empire thinking this would be a cakewalk, and then when they actually reach a Tau world of some import, it becomes Stalingrad.

[Vortex13]

*snorts*

 

You keep thinking that, it was the Tau that let the Imperium's military forces even leave to go fight the nids at the conclusion of the crusade, I mean it was the Imperium who strolled into the Empire thinking this would be a cakewalk, and then when they actually reach a Tau world of some import, it becomes Stalingrad.

 

*puts on WH40K nerd glasses*

 

The Imperium were mobilizing additional forces, before Behemoth began rampaging through the eastern fringe.

 

The Tau held their own I'll give them that; in fact I love it when the Imperium's rampant xenophobia and inflated sense their species' innate superiority blows up in their faces; but the blue skins would have been wiped out if the entirety of the Emperor's Fleet had moved to assist in the Gulf Crusade, it's just a simple matter of sheer numbers and superior spacecraft technology. 

[Kabooooom]

It was really well done (I thought at any rate) in this book, because at first the human scientists didn't believe they were actually causing pain to the aliens, since they weren't conscious and so they assumed that the Scramblers were just akin to white blood cells of their space craft. When they realized what the Scramblers were though, they had a moral dilemma about it, but by that time, they realized that the alien's intentions for Earth weren't exactly friendly, and they needed to find any possible weaknesses in their physiology. And while all this is going on, you come to realize that the Scrambler captives have been studying the human scientists, gaining insight into our weaknesses and physiology.


All in all, it was a really great example of how to showcase a morally dubious scenario without painting one side as wholly innocent.

Ah, I should read this book (I know I said that last time too ). That illustrates another morally gray area. If we know we are causing another species pain by studying them, but we do it in order to save our own species from extinction at their hands, is it moral? Things like that illustrate the subjectivity of morality.

In ME1, they had morally ambiguous choices like that - release the Rachni at the risk of dooming the galaxy, or kill them? Arguably the genophage cure could be considered morally ambiguous too. But by and large, Bioware didnt really explore choices that had no right or wrong answer. Usually they clearly made moral decisions black and white. I'm not sure if that is because of the paragon/renegade system by necessity.

[Medhia_Nox]

Ugh... the Tau.  

 

Pheromone emitting Peace-Krogan. 

 

A bunch of uplifted garbage and failed races collected together to form... "That group of space junk that the Eldar outfitted as a distraction for the Imperium to shoot at."  

[Vortex13]

Ah, I should read this book (I know I said that last time too ). That illustrates another morally gray area. If we know we are causing another species pain by studying them, but we do it in order to save our own species from extinction at their hands, is it moral? Things like that illustrate the subjectivity of morality.

In ME1, they had morally ambiguous choices like that - release the Rachni at the risk of dooming the galaxy, or kill them? Arguably the genophage cure could be considered morally ambiguous too. But by and large, Bioware didnt really explore choices that had no right or wrong answer. Usually they clearly made moral decisions black and white. I'm not sure if that is because of the paragon/renegade system by necessity.

I believe Blindsight is free in E-book format, at least it was when I downloaded it.