52 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

I'm completely sure its been brought up before but I can't find it.

 

Not saying this is what's happening, just at least disturbing fancanon/fiction.

 

Proposal:

 

Destroy - Leviathans are free of Reaper obstruction and have organics that may not do what the Old Galaxy did. Organics may be aware of the Leviathans (DLC complete?) but now that the Reapers are gone, the Leviathans could utilize their artifacts everywhere, escape to safety, and puppet the galaxy again.

 

Control - Leviathans have their situation resolved and the Reapers managing a peace that they can manipulate. Organics will not create synthetics that will destroy them, so Leviathans can slowly rise as long as they don't attract Shepalyst attention.

 

Synthesis - Leviathans become networked with everything and controllable by them. Leviathans could dominate and enthrall organics and have limited impact on synthetics - they can stun Reapers and temporarily dominate husks within range. Making Leviathans like synthetics and having all neo-organic life connected could have the whole galaxy under at least their sway.

 

In order, they lose direct power but could gain extended power.

 

Don't care about Refuse here.

 

 

Rebuttal: 

 

Destroy - If the DLC is done, the galaxy knows about the Leviathans and their strengths and weaknesses, which could be more than any other organic setup in the galaxy ever knew. They could lay the smack down on the Leviathans. If the DLC is not done, the galaxy still seems capable, at least in upper EMS, and 

 

Control - Reapers under Shepalyst control may be more than capable enough to deal with the Leviathans. After all, it didn't even take the Reapers, but a surprise attack of some sorts from the Intelligence to defeat them.

 

Synthesis - Everyone networked can = everyone okay with each other. Thus, with Leviathans networked, they also will lose grudges and have a high degree of understanding with others, ending even their desire to dominate.

 

 

Counter:

 

Destroy - Leviathans already have 'enthrallment teams' and a foothold into the Alliance. It may also have scattered artifacts and thralls that are utterly unknown to the galaxy. They could only be waiting for their time to strike and directly dominate yet again. It may be a tougher process than before, but the Leviathans may have up to billions of years of prep for this time.

 

Control - Leviathans can affect Reaper units. They could be prepared to face the Reapers now that they're facing a Reaper authority that seems to value keeping organic life.. well, alive. No longer suppressed by the Harvest Cycle, the Leviathans can take everyone on, even come to utilize Reaper tech themselves, and end up with the galaxy as effectively theirs. With the Reapers focusing now on peace and safety of all, that may not be enough when addressing those who do not value any individual other lives.

 

Synthesis - Leviathans don't need a desire to dominate because as the previously-apex organics, they combined with everyone else ARE the domination. The galaxy is technically theirs. Its not about them ruling now, its about everyone mixed in with Leviathans ruling and facing the rest of the universe.

 

 

Countercounterjoke:

 

Destroy - Yeah but the Leviathans are actually dumb.

 

Control - Reapers are Reapers. They will kill the Leviathans.

 

Synthesis - Nah everyone be borg now. Who cares about space squids.

 

 

 

EDIT: To be clear, my top prediction is just that the Levis are dealt with and exist as monsters in the abyss that will probably never be central or important enemies ever and they'll have to understand that they face a galaxy that is either aware of them and ready to fight back, or just ready to fight back.

But I like to consider.

[ArabianIGoggles]

They sure do have a nice setup for when we eventually return to the MW. 

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

 

Everywhere except the box office.

[SporkFu]

It's interesting to consider that the population numbers for the Leviathan were never really clarified. Were they relatively few in number with widespread control? Did they populate each the systems they controlled... which would kinda be all of them, heh. How much control did they exert? They allowed species to destroy themselves, and so became aware of the organic/synthetic problem: "Tribute does not flow from a dead race."

The catalyst and its machines did defeat the Leviathan once, nearly driving them to extinction, so they aren't infallible. It's implied in the DLC that Eezo is a necessity, so perhaps that is how they will effectively be dealt with in the future, with blockades and embargoes, that sort of thing.

I have to think that even with the artifacts, their circle of influence would have to be relatively small. The device on the Citadel apparently only affected Hadley. Anne says her father no longer went on field missions or expeditions, implying he spent most of his time coordinating things in the Lab, and yet he gave no evidence of being controlled, as Hadley was. Perhaps, like a jedi mind trick, a single artifact is only able to influence weak-minded fools?

[ArabianIGoggles]

It's interesting to consider that the population numbers for the Leviathan were never really clarified. Were they relatively few in number with widespread control? Did they populate each the systems they controlled... which would kinda be all of them, heh. How much control did they exert? They allowed species to destroy themselves, and so became aware of the organic/synthetic problem: "Tribute does not flow from a dead race."

The catalyst and its machines did defeat the Leviathan once, nearly driving them to extinction, so they aren't infallible. It's implied in the DLC that Eezo is a necessity, so perhaps that is how they will effectively be dealt with in the future, with blockades and embargoes, that sort of thing.

I have to think that even with the artifacts, their circle of influence would have to be relatively small. The device on the Citadel apparently only affected Hadley. Anne says her father no longer went on field missions or expeditions, implying he spent most of his time coordinating things in the Lab, and yet he gave no evidence of being controlled, as Hadley was. Perhaps, like a jedi mind trick, a single artifact is only able to influence weak-minded fools?

Time spent near the artifact is what makes it work.  Hadley become indocrinated after sleeping next to an artifact he was studying. 

[SporkFu]

Time spent near the artifact is what makes it work.  Hadley become indocrinated after sleeping next to an artifact he was studying.

Yup, but what I meant was, Dr. Bryson was spending a lot of time in the lab lately too, where the artifact was. At least it's implied that he wasn't doing fieldwork anymore. It's possible the Leviathan could have taken control of Dr. Bryson and just didn't. But if so, why? Could have had Bryson destroy all his own work and blow up the lab in such a way that C-Sec would conclude it was a tragic accident or something.

[SwobyJ]

I think it would have affected him with enough time and close exposure but it was also not 'activated' yet. Thus needing something more like sleeping right next to it.

 

Then notice came that Shepard was coming and PANICBUTTONGOTHRALLKILLBRYSONANDKEEPQUIET!

 

Could be that Bryson was being affected in a lesser way and that was him spending more time in the lab, possibly starting to regard the artifact as something he should be closer to, but that's it.

[Draining Dragon]

 
Everywhere except the box office.

Thomas Hobbes disapproves.

[SwobyJ]

It's interesting to consider that the population numbers for the Leviathan were never really clarified. Were they relatively few in number with widespread control? Did they populate each the systems they controlled... which would kinda be all of them, heh. How much control did they exert? They allowed species to destroy themselves, and so became aware of the organic/synthetic problem: "Tribute does not flow from a dead race."

The catalyst and its machines did defeat the Leviathan once, nearly driving them to extinction, so they aren't infallible. It's implied in the DLC that Eezo is a necessity, so perhaps that is how they will effectively be dealt with in the future, with blockades and embargoes, that sort of thing.

I have to think that even with the artifacts, their circle of influence would have to be relatively small. The device on the Citadel apparently only affected Hadley. Anne says her father no longer went on field missions or expeditions, implying he spent most of his time coordinating things in the Lab, and yet he gave no evidence of being controlled, as Hadley was. Perhaps, like a jedi mind trick, a single artifact is only able to influence weak-minded fools?

 

Bioware could go either way on population if they wanted to. A few on that one planet? Many scattered around? Could they Ardat-Yakshi us (as in, make it sound like its few when its technically turning out to be many) and reveal they're everywhere in the cosmos and its just the Milky Way that existed as an isolated experiment that just these Leviathans are trapped in? 

 

I think the idea is that they had agents throughout the galaxy, most often in leadership roles, and they directed civilization. Primitives directly worshiping them, moderns following religion and philosophy and politics that favored them, and like any Lovecraftian cult deal, any exposure is swiftly ended one way or another. Tribute could be seen in many ways. Do they eat people? Do they appreciate worship? Do they just take the resources and technology of the thrall species and use it as they desire? Do they urge one species to destroy another if the other doesn't do enough of what they want? Do they urge wars against synthetics since they notice people getting too close to creating AI and then ultimately being killed by that AI. We have to imagine that any societies under Leviathan rule (secret or otherwise) would follow at least some trends akin to how the Leviathans themselves are, and they don't seem the most cooperative towards opposition outside their domain. Can't expect any societies were successful about AI even if just because it was being so suppressed and people perhaps kept from considering it in a friendly way. So eventually it happens and everyone sucks about it all.

 

A single artifact can apparently enthrall lots of people, but perhaps most of them end up with only partial control. The example given was the Mineral Works, where it seemed more like people were in a dreamy daze that showed a little of themselves (even if their 'conscious mind' was locked away) than complete mind control.

[KamuiStorm]

 
Everywhere except the box office.

Wonder how much Amanda had to dish out? Hurr

[HSomCokeSniper]

Bioware: Doesn't matter because Andromeda.

 

Problem solved.

[AntiChri5]

Step 1; Pull an Arrival/BDtS on the world where we encountered them. That's it, problem solved. There is no step 2. Grab a big ass asteroid, slap on some thrusters, point it the right way and we are done. What are they gunna do, fire off their EMP blast? Sure, it will fry the thrusters but at that point it will be way too late. Momentum is momentum.

 

They need thousands of slaves to get off a planet and their indoctrination is less effective then that of the Reapers. They are sitting ducks. Asteroid hits, wipes out all life on that planet, go home and have a barbeque.

 

The chances of there being others out there is incredibly low. If there are it's a simple case of repeating the process.

[ArabianIGoggles]

Step 1; Pull an Arrival/BDtS on the world where we encountered them. That's it, problem solved. There is no step 2. Grab a big ass asteroid, slap on some thrusters, point it the right way and we are done. What are they gunna do, fire off their EMP blast? Sure, it will fry the thrusters but at that point it will be way too late. Momentum is momentum.

 

They need thousands of slaves to get off a planet and their indoctrination is less effective then that of the Reapers. They are sitting ducks. Asteroid hits, wipes out all life on that planet, go home and have a barbeque.

 

The chances of there being others out there is incredibly low. If there are it's a simple case of repeating the process.

I find it hard to believe that the Leviathans don't have contingencies in place to prevent things such as this.  Having their own relay parked underneath that ocean wouldn't surprise me.

[LightningPoodle]

I would like to see more of the Leviathans, but at the same time, I kinda don't. I don't want to have to battle anything Reaper-like again, appearance or otherwise.

[SwobyJ]

The Rachni stuff was kinda weird.

 

First its Reapers, but then its figured that that's not the Reaper MO - that they only use indoc signals alone when they have to, but they rely more on implantation.

 

Then its Leviathans, but so far we think they're only left on that one planet, albeit with artifacts scattered, and it was the Salarians that discovered the Rachni. Also Leviathan enthrallment so far isn't very described as a 'sour yellow note' or more interestingly 'oily shadows'. It would also have to be all the Queens affected by artifacts.

 

So this could be yet another red herring, put in just to explain how Leviathan may communicate, not to prove that they controlled the Rachni.

 

And given how the Rachni are also now pretty canonically established as great survivors, seeing them again wouldn't be a surprise, although the more precise version of Milky Way Rachni War Rachni isn't as likely.

 

The Reapers seemed to have the data to artificially create a Rachni, and we can guess that its just so they could bolster their forces during what may be one of their tougher, if not toughest cycles to initially Harvest. This also bolsters the idea that if the Reapers wanted to use Rachni, twisting their indoctrination-resistant queens would not be efficient when they could simply create them upon need.

 

Just musing. The Rachni story could either be information that bolsters a larger Leviathan presence than it may more minimally be seen, or it could just be information that is a dead end theory that only provides some explanation on how the Leviathans work, same with the Thorian info. But if not the Reapers and seemingly not the Leviathans, what was behind the Rachni? 

[SwobyJ]

I would like to see more of the Leviathans, but at the same time, I kinda don't. I don't want to have to battle anything Reaper-like again, appearance or otherwise.

 

I can see it having appeal if I include two things:

 

1)There isn't a focus on their shape. Our interaction with them is more complex and Leviathan DLC was just to have a Reaper-ish presentation of them during a game focused on Reaper War.

 

2)Their approach towards things ends up being rather more interesting and beyond the Reaping Cycle. Indeed, while the Cycles may have been incredibly long and seemingly eternal, it could even be written that the Leviathans existed pre-Cycles for longer than the Cycles, and that they had a more interesting and chaotic existence in their interactions with other species that were not bound by Reaper experimentation and harvest. The Leviathans are closer to the 'natural existence' of the cosmos and especially if we're going into a story dealing with pre-spaceflight cultures and non-Reaper-controlled/destroyed civilizations, I can see there being a place for Leviathans in this.

....

3)Bioware DLC is often a smaller version of what ends up happening later on: in story, art, gameplay. Whether its even the Leviathans we face, the concept of organics dominating over the cosmos seemed to be a trend in much of the DLC, increased from ME3 itself, so seeing it more in MEA, Leviathans or not, wouldn't surprise me.

[shodiswe]

An attempted reconnection with the milkyway might take two or three millenia while the colonies recover and upgrade their infrastructure to even be able to afford a journey to the milkyway for very little in the sense of reward. If they want to recreate a super relay of some type then that will also be very expensive.

 

But I expect BW to run at least three games in Andromeda fore considerign going back to liberate the Milkyway.

[SwobyJ]

An attempted reconnection with the milkyway might take two or three millenia while the colonies recover and upgrade their infrastructure to even be able to afford a journey to the milkyway for very little in the sense of reward. If they want to recreate a super relay of some type then that will also be very expensive.

 

But I expect BW to run at least three games in Andromeda fore considerign going back to liberate the Milkyway.

 

I don't even speculate too much on this (which is rare for me, as I speculate to the max) given so very little information we have on the matter.

 

So far I see this as a very insightful field trip for the franchise. How far it goes, if it keeps going, and when it comes back, I have no clue. And I keep in mind that like many here think, we'll never 'go back'.

[AntiChri5]

I find it hard to believe that the Leviathans don't have contingencies in place to prevent things such as this.  Having their own relay parked underneath that ocean wouldn't surprise me.

How would they accomplish that? They didn't build the relays. They didn't build ****. They had their slaves build an AI once and that ended terribly.

[SwobyJ]

They probably built a lot, albeit with thralls as their hands.

[Commander Rpg]

Bioware: Doesn't matter because Andromeda.

 

Problem solved.

You say it's solved, it's instead well avoided because they're total inepts.

[ArabianIGoggles]

How would they accomplish that? They didn't build the relays. They didn't build ****. They had their slaves build an AI once and that ended terribly.

By controlling their thralls.  A race that has been around a lot longer than the reapers and still exists.  Nah, they couldn't have done anything successful. 

[AntiChri5]

By controlling their thralls.  A race that has been around a lot longer than the reapers and still exists.  Nah, they couldn't have done anything successful. 

Their thralls weren't a single race, just the various creatures they enslaved over the centuries.

 

They relied on their enthrallment abilities for everything, having their slaves design and build technology for them. Even their balmy AI was something they told their slaves to make, not something they made. And, as you may have noticed, they are kinda running out of slaves. Forced into hiding for billions of years, they have almost no thralls and we have proof that there is shielding technology that works to block the signal, enabling us to prevent them from getting more.

 

Their enslavement ability was, over time, refined into indoctrination by the Reapers. Which means their own brand of indoctrination is weaker then that of the Reapers. The single thing they relied on for everything has been done better, by something we already beat. And the Reapers had a dozen things they don't. They can't fly or shoot lasers.

 

At this point, the Leviathan's are just overgrown squids.

[Cyonan]

Well the Reapers could enthrall people to a stronger degree, and there was a lot more of them.

 

That didn't really stop us when they were doing it.

[SporkFu]

Bioware could go either way on population if they wanted to. A few on that one planet? Many scattered around? Could they Ardat-Yakshi us (as in, make it sound like its few when its technically turning out to be many) and reveal they're everywhere in the cosmos and its just the Milky Way that existed as an isolated experiment that just these Leviathans are trapped in?

I think the idea is that they had agents throughout the galaxy, most often in leadership roles, and they directed civilization. Primitives directly worshiping them, moderns following religion and philosophy and politics that favored them, and like any Lovecraftian cult deal, any exposure is swiftly ended one way or another. Tribute could be seen in many ways. Do they eat people? Do they appreciate worship? Do they just take the resources and technology of the thrall species and use it as they desire? Do they urge one species to destroy another if the other doesn't do enough of what they want? Do they urge wars against synthetics since they notice people getting too close to creating AI and then ultimately being killed by that AI. We have to imagine that any societies under Leviathan rule (secret or otherwise) would follow at least some trends akin to how the Leviathans themselves are, and they don't seem the most cooperative towards opposition outside their domain. Can't expect any societies were successful about AI even if just because it was being so suppressed and people perhaps kept from considering it in a friendly way. So eventually it happens and everyone sucks about it all.

A single artifact can apparently enthrall lots of people, but perhaps most of them end up with only partial control. The example given was the Mineral Works, where it seemed more like people were in a dreamy daze that showed a little of themselves (even if their 'conscious mind' was locked away) than complete mind control.

It would have been great to learn more about the Leviathan for sure, how widespread they were and how much they exerted their influence on the galaxy. This might seem a little out there but if the Leviathan built the catalyst in their image, maybe they too took a largely hands off approach to the way the galaxy rsn itself. I mean, if the catalyst wanted to assume a little more direct control of things, one would think it could have woken the reapers up every 50,000 years itself, and never given anyone a chance to thwart the cycle in any way. My point is, maybe as long as tribute flowed -- to my mind the biggest tribute would be eezo -- the Leviathan didn't care how species evolved since they believed they could be controlled at any time. The Leviathan who spoke to Shep even stated, in as bald a revelation of its arrogance as there is, that "they were above the concerns of lesser species."