125 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Is it just me or are Rogues and Warriors becoming more and more mage-like ?

 

To be fair, Warriors are not so offensive in their magic-wannabeness. Most of their magical ability can actually be explained within the in game lore.

 

For instance, a Reaver is a Warrior that consumes Dragon's blood to gain some special powers, a Templar is a Warrior that uses Titan's blood to gain some special powers and a Spirit Warrior interacts with the inhabitants of the Fade in order to gain special powers in exchange of the spirit being able to glimpse the physical world. The only real head-scratcher when it comes to Warriors are their ability to generate armor out of nowhere (the game calls this "generate guard").

 

The Rogues though, go all out in their drive to be wannabe mages. Archers have unlimited arrows (even though no Codex entry has mentioned the existence of enchanted quivers), Rangers can summon animal companions magically, they can have access to decoys which can be rigged to explode, they can teleport behind a target or across the map to someone else, they can have unlimited knockout bombs, unlimited throwing blades, unlimited elixir's, unlimited spike traps, unlimited elemental mines and worst of all, unlimited space-time teleportation lanterns. I know the Tempest's elixirs have an in game explanation, but the fact you can carry unlimited amounts of them is ridiculous. At this rate, Rogues are going to end up being pseudo mages with sneak / flank attacks and stealth.

 

Come on Bioware, there needs to be some distinction between the magic class and the non-magic classes, especially between Mages and the Rogues. Warriors are not so offensive and actually have to take some risks like becoming an addict (Templar) and turning violent as well as growing scales (Reavers).

 

What risks do Artificers take, especially considering that they have lanterns that can teleport someone through the space-time continuum, restore their health and their restore their stamina ? What risks to Shadows take, given that they can create a life like decoy of themselves with just their stamina ?

[thats1evildude]

Ah yes, the Guy at the Gym Fallacy, or "Let's not give the melee classes any cool tricks because that would stretch suspension of disbelief." Because if I'm playing a rogue or a warrior, I definitely want to feel like a luggage-carrier for the mages in my party.

If bottomless quivers are breaking our verisimilitude, why don't we incorporate wear and tear on our weapons and armour while we're at it? Have detrimental effects for lyrium potions? Force our characters to eat food at regular intervals? Those things would be incredibly tedious to deal with, but hey, they're realistic.

[Nic Mercy]

Is it just me or are Rogues and Warriors becoming more and more mage-like ?

 

To be fair, Warriors are not so offensive in their magic-wannabeness. Most of their magical ability can actually be explained within the in game lore.

 

For instance, a Reaver is a Warrior that consumes Dragon's blood to gain some special powers, a Templar is a Warrior that uses Titan's blood to gain some special powers and a Spirit Warrior interacts with the inhabitants of the Fade in order to gain special powers in exchange of the spirit being able to glimpse the physical world. The only real head-scratcher when it comes to Warriors are their ability to generate armor out of nowhere (the game calls this "generate guard").

 

The Rogues though, go all out in their drive to be wannabe mages. Archers have unlimited arrows (even though no Codex entry has mentioned the existence of enchanted quivers), Rangers can summon animal companions magically, they can have access to decoys which can be rigged to explode, they can teleport behind a target or across the map to someone else, they can have unlimited knockout bombs, unlimited throwing blades, unlimited elixir's, unlimited spike traps, unlimited elemental mines and worst of all, unlimited space-time teleportation lanterns. I know the Tempest's elixirs have an in game explanation, but the fact you can carry unlimited amounts of them is ridiculous. At this rate, Rogues are going to end up being pseudo mages with sneak / flank attacks and stealth.

 

Come on Bioware, there needs to be some distinction between the magic class and the non-magic classes, especially between Mages and the Rogues. Warriors are not so offensive and actually have to take some risks like becoming an addict (Templar) and turning violent as well as growing scales (Reavers).

 

What risks do Artificers take, especially considering that they have lanterns that can teleport someone through the space-time continuum, restore their health and their restore their stamina ? What risks to Shadows take, given that they can create a life like decoy of themselves with just their stamina ?

 

Don't think of guard as a somehow "generating armor out of thin air", think of it more as deflecting attacks or rolling with the blows to absorb their impact. It's not armor sprouting out of the warrior's skin, it's just a mechanical way to indicate a warrior can take more punishment than non-warriors without just giving them absurd hp totals. Specifically, warriors who focus on skills that generate guard (typically tanks). Whereas dps focused warriors theoretically won't have as much guard generation since they invest their points in more dps skills.

 

Everything goes a bit sideways when you start adding +guard per hit bonuses on armor and stuff.

[thats1evildude]

Hit points are just an abstraction, and Guard is just a part of that abstraction. Think of it as temporary HP.

In RL, if you got stabbed non-fatally with a sword, you would still have to worry about muscle and organ damage, blood loss, infection of wounds, etc. Your recovery could take days or weeks. The legendary "arrow to the knee" could actually end a fighting career.

In a game, you deduct a few points off your HP and keep fighting. Because who wants to create a new character every time you get poked by something sharp?

[Kurogane335]

If we are realistic, even a back-handed hit by an High Dragon would severely injure or even kill the most armoured of warrior, and there would be no way for anyone to stand up against a mage, because its fire/ice/electric effects would be far too brutal even at a low level to be brushed off like some chilly wind. Even being temporary frozen would induce grave damages and potentially fatal hypothermia.

[AlanC9]

Right. If you can't deal with an abstraction like Guard, how do you handle an abstraction like Threat?

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Ah yes, the Guy at the Gym Fallacy, or "Let's not give the melee classes any cool tricks because that would stretch suspension of disbelief." Because if I'm playing a rogue or a warrior, I definitely want to feel like a luggage-carrier for the mages in my party.

If bottomless quivers are breaking our verisimilitude, why don't we incorporate wear and tear on our weapons and armour while we're at it? Have detrimental effects for lyrium potions? Force our characters to eat food at regular intervals?

 

I would love for more realism. But my point is that if Rogues and Warriors are going to get magic-esque tricks for the sake of convenience, then what's the point of playing them ? Might as well just be a mage because everything a mage does can be explained away with magic.

[Aren]

 

 

To be fair, Warriors are not so offensive in their magic-wannabeness. Most of their magical ability can actually be explained within the in game lore.

 

 

 

That can't be said for the SW they can call whatever spirit they want whenever they want and even partially cross the fade without being mages.

[Aren]

 Have detrimental effects for lyrium potions? 

This is already part of the lore

[Tidus]

I might be doing something wrong but,in DA:O none of my rogues uses magic. I just use the best combat skills, dexterity, health and will power. In DA:I  My rogue uses the invisibility skill. 

[Aren]

I might be doing something wrong but,in DA:O none of my rogues uses magic. I just use the best combat skills, dexterity, health and will power. In DA:I  My rogue uses the invisibility skill. 

Point of the Op is that they looks like mages for their abilties,like the Shadow spec or the summoning of animals from nowhere.

[vertigomez]

I would love for more realism. But my point is that if Rogues and Warriors are going to get magic-esque tricks for the sake of convenience, then what's the point of playing them ? Might as well just be a mage because everything a mage does can be explained away with magic.

Because sometimes you want to stab/shoot/bludgeon people instead of exploding them.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Point of the Op is that they looks like mages for their abilties,like the Shadow spec or the summoning of animals from nowhere.

 

Yep.

 

Because sometimes you want to stab/shoot/bludgeon people instead of exploding them.

 

Only Necromancer's Walking Bomb can explode targets, so many mages cannot explode targets either. Like I said, if they keep going down this route, Rogues will soon be pseudo-mages with stealth and sneak/flank attacks.

 

Speaking of weird Rogue stuff, what's up with Mark of Death. I previous two games, it was just an ability like a dye of sorts that highlighted a target's weakness. Now it a spell-esque ability can somehow accurately store the damage taken from all sources, total them up and then detonate to add that totaled up damaged. That is just as ridiculous as having a thieves' lantern that can teleport someone through space and time. Since when thieves became experts in advanced physics ?

[Aren]

How would you handle the issue into an high fantasy setting like Dragon age?

Others kind of setting which are more focused on a low level of magic ala GoT don't have this issue.

Point is that mages  in high fantasy settings are overpowered with great potentials in terms of power (heck we even know of some pseudo gods-mages) and while this isn't an issue for the lore this is a big issue for the consistency of the gameplay,so they make the others class overpowered too sometime via magical abilities that are defined as not magical.

[Wulfram]

They were more magey in DA2. So I don't really see a trend.

I thought Warriors were basically OK except for earth shattering strike.

Rogues are stretching the abstraction thing a bit far though.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

 

How would you handle the issue into an high fantasy setting like Dragon age?

 

Others kind of setting which are more focused on a low level of magic ala GoT don't have this issue.

 

Point is that mages  in high fantasy settings are overpowered with great potentials in terms of power (heck we even know of some pseudo gods-mages) and while this isn't an issue for the lore this is a big issue for the consistency of the gameplay,so they make the others class overpowered too sometime via magical abilities that are defined as not magical.

 

 

Positioning for sneak attacks or flank attacks should be done by the player, like in DAO instead of relying on teleport. To offset this, introduce abilities that can stun enemies and make flank / sneak attacks more powerful.

 

For things like arrows, just introduce a Codex about enchanted quivers and be done with it.

 

Now for stuff like traps, mines, bombs, throwing blades, etc...Just have a limit on them like we do with potions and poisons. Have it set to base quantity of 10 and you can replenish them at camp...To offset this just increase the damage they do...Think of it as the grenades in Mass Effect 3. You have a limit on them but they are powerful and have no cooldowns.

 

Scrap things like Fallback Plan since they cannot be explained by any lore because instant teleportation is impossible in Thedas, even using magic. Mark of Death should not store damage but simply expose weakness and vulnerabilities.

 

For Warriors, instead of having an actual armor they can regenerate out of nowhere, why not just increase their damage reduction instead of using guard ? They will still take damage but it will be reduced (depending on the skill and specialization they could reduce damage to 5% perhaps ?) and they won't have some magic-esque armor out of nowhere.

 

There...Problem solved..

[Tidus]

Aren,Still in DA:O my rogues doesn't use shadow or summon animals. Only my DA:I rogue uses shadow.

[The Baconer]

That can't be said for the SW they can call whatever spirit they want whenever they want and even partially cross the fade without being mages.

 

Yeah, but that's dumb and lore-breaking in 99% of situations. 

[vertigomez]

Who needs enchanted quivers? We know where arrows come from.

Dorian: Where did you get all those arrows, Sera? You've got hundreds.
Sera: From your arse!
Dorian: Well my arse should open up a shop. Apparently it's quite prolific.

[AnimalBoy]

So basically try and make a fantasy game more realistic? What fun.

[nightscrawl]

Ah yes, the Guy at the Gym Fallacy, or "Let's not give the melee classes any cool tricks because that would stretch suspension of disbelief." Because if I'm playing a rogue or a warrior, I definitely want to feel like a luggage-carrier for the mages in my party.

If bottomless quivers are breaking our verisimilitude, why don't we incorporate wear and tear on our weapons and armour while we're at it? Have detrimental effects for lyrium potions? Force our characters to eat food at regular intervals?

 

It's not for me, but there are people who would love your rhetorical suggestions. The Skyrim mod Realistic Needs and Diseases, and a whole host of other realism mods show that there is a desire for this type of content.

 

That said, I think it is silly to compare game mechanics in this way. This is a game. There are gamey elements. In real life, when we p*ss off someone, we don't see a "John slightly disapproves" text, or numbers float above someone's head if we punch them in the face.

[vertigomez]

That said, I think it is silly to compare game mechanics in this way. This is a game. There are gamey elements. In real life, when we p*ss off someone, we don't see a "John slightly disapproves" text, or numbers float above someone's head if we punch them in the face.

Speak for yourself! Prochlorperazine only does so much.

[Super Drone]

Ah, the inescapable "Warriors and Rogues need to suck because realism" thread...  

 

 

...maybe I should start a "Mage characters should have a chance to randomly be permanently possessed by demons and made unplayable because realism" thread. I wonder if all the people having panic attacks over Warriors and Rogues having abstractly depicted mechanics would get behind that idea... 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Ah, the inescapable "Warriors and Rogues need to suck because realism" thread...  

 

 

...maybe I should start a "Mage characters should have a chance to randomly be permanently possessed by demons and made unplayable because realism" thread. I wonder if all the people having panic attacks over Warriors and Rogues having abstractly depicted mechanics would get behind that idea... 

 

I am perfectly okay with the option of having to fight demons in my dreams as a mage. More XP for me.

[Super Drone]

I am perfectly okay with the option of having to fight demons in my dreams as a mage. More XP for me.

 

Ha. That's roughly the response I was expecting. People who complain about Warriors and Rogues being too flashy are usually actually complaining about Warriors and Rogues taking the spotlight away from their precious Mage characters. Hence the reason why Bioware ignores these complaints.