125 réponses à ce sujet

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I agree is a mess,rogues and warriors looks like anything but rogues and warriors.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Ha. That's roughly the response I was expecting. People who complain about Warriors and Rogues being too flashy are usually actually complaining about Warriors and Rogues taking the spotlight away from their precious Mage characters. Hence the reason why Bioware ignores these complaints.

 

The fact that Warriors and Rogues have to mage-fy themselves and employ pseudo-magics already imply that mages are the superior class.

 

Your flashiness is based upon magics. Our magics. By using it, your class develops along the paths we desire. We impose authority on the puny non-magic classes. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

[Super Drone]

The fact that Warriors and Rogues have to mage-fy themselves and employ pseudo-magics already imply that mages are the superior class.

 

Your flashiness is based upon magics. Our magics. By using it, your class develops along the paths we desire. We impose authority on the puny non-magic classes. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

 

Anything other than hitting people and standing there to absorb damage that might have scratched your super-cool Mage is magic to people shrieking on the internet about anybody but "their" class getting anything powerful or interesting. The anti-Rogue/Warrior crowd seems to want Meat-Shields and Lock-Openers to follow around their Mage PC. Anything else is "unrealistic" in a bad way (As opposed to unrealistic in a "good" way, i.e. their all-powerful Mage PC).

 

"I fight for freedom. Mine and Everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own favorite Class and not have it suck because of the neurotic hang-ups of entitled super-fans on a toxic forum. And if I fail, I'll ragequit the series knowing I did everything I could to stop you. And I'll ragequit free."

[Forsythia77]

Because sometimes you want to stab/shoot/bludgeon people instead of exploding them.

 

Or you can stab the crap out of someone with a dagger that has explode on death for 100% damage and murder them and make them explode!

 

What..  Just me?!

[nightscrawl]

^ Exploding bodies? All classes had those in DA2.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Anything other than hitting people and standing there to absorb damage that might have scratched your super-cool Mage is magic to people shrieking on the internet about anybody but "their" class getting anything powerful or interesting. The anti-Rogue/Warrior crowd seems to want Meat-Shields and Lock-Openers to follow around their Mage PC. Anything else is "unrealistic" in a bad way (As opposed to unrealistic in a "good" way, i.e. their all-powerful Mage PC).

 

"I fight for freedom. Mine and Everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own favorite Class and not have it suck because of the neurotic hang-ups of entitled super-fans on a toxic forum. And if I fail, I'll ragequit the series knowing I did everything I could to stop you. And I'll ragequit free."

 

On a serious note, I not want what you proposed. If you look at the steps I have to fix this issue, you will see that this is not the case.

 

Positioning for sneak attacks or flank attacks should be done by the player, like in DAO instead of relying on teleport. To offset this, introduce abilities that can stun enemies and make flank / sneak attacks more powerful.

 

For things like arrows, just introduce a Codex about enchanted quivers and be done with it.

 

Now for stuff like traps, mines, bombs, throwing blades, etc...Just have a limit on them like we do with potions and poisons. Have it set to base quantity of 10 and you can replenish them at camp...To offset this just increase the damage they do...Think of it as the grenades in Mass Effect 3. You have a limit on them but they are powerful and have no cooldowns.

 

Scrap things like Fallback Plan since they cannot be explained by any lore because instant teleportation is impossible in Thedas, even using magic. Mark of Death should not store damage but simply expose weakness and vulnerabilities.

 

For Warriors, instead of having an actual armor they can regenerate out of nowhere, why not just increase their damage reduction instead of using guard ? They will still take damage but it will be reduced (depending on the skill and specialization they could reduce damage to 5% perhaps ?) and they won't have some magic-esque armor out of nowhere.

 

There...Problem solved...

[Super Drone]

On a serious note, I not want what you proposed. If you look at the steps I have to fix this issue, you will see that this is not the case.

 

Positioning for sneak attacks or flank attacks should be done by the player, like in DAO instead of relying on teleport. To offset this, introduce abilities that can stun enemies and make flank / sneak attacks more powerful.

 

For things like arrows, just introduce a Codex about enchanted quivers and be done with it.

 

Now for stuff like traps, mines, bombs, throwing blades, etc...Just have a limit on them like we do with potions and poisons. Have it set to base quantity of 10 and you can replenish them at camp...To offset this just increase the damage they do...Think of it as the grenades in Mass Effect 3. You have a limit on them but they are powerful and have no cooldowns.

 

Scrap things like Fallback Plan since they cannot be explained by any lore because instant teleportation is impossible in Thedas, even using magic. Mark of Death should not store damage but simply expose weakness and vulnerabilities.

 

For Warriors, instead of having an actual armor they can regenerate out of nowhere, why not just increase their damage reduction instead of using guard ? They will still take damage but it will be reduced (depending on the skill and specialization they could reduce damage to 5% perhaps ?) and they won't have some magic-esque armor out of nowhere.

 

There...Problem solved...

 

 

And of course, you'll need to get rid of powers like Earthshaking Strike because it extends beyond the reach of the actual weapon. And Whirlwind, because that's a unrealistic way to wield a weapon that big. Taunt abilities would need to go, as they work on beasts and undead, which is unrealistic too. Dual Wielding daggers is a super unrealistic for all Rogues to have in common, as are Archery Talents that do anything other than fire one arrow at one target.

 

So, "realism" dictates Warriors and Rogues have that ability to attack, and.... hmm, I guess "Attack For More Damage, But There's a Cooldown". You know, now that you mention it, Cooldowns for non-Mages isn't realistic either, so....  

 

 

I get the response you are going to post is "lol, I didn't mean they couldn't have any abilities, just the ones I personally find unrealistic", but where is the line drawn? 

[KaiserShep]

For Warriors, instead of having an actual armor they can regenerate out of nowhere, why not just increase their damage reduction instead of using guard ? They will still take damage but it will be reduced (depending on the skill and specialization they could reduce damage to 5% perhaps ?) and they won't have some magic-esque armor out of nowhere.

 

 

It doesn't seem like the effect would be that much different, save for perhaps a different visual representation on the health bar. 

[TheWayofPie]

Yeah let's not make warriors and rogues lamer than mages please. If I wanted to do that I'll play D&D 3.5. I mean Origins already had super OP mages, one-trick pony auto-attack backstab rogues, and whatever the hell warriors did that an arcane warrior could do better.

 

I literally refuse to play Warriors in Dragon Age: Origins, while its my favorite class in DA II and Inquisition. Give me my armor and my invisibility and my cool animu fightan magic. Whirlwinding enemies while you suck them into your blade, as you build massive amounts of guard and knock them all down. Hell yeah.

[Vit246]

Can you guys stop your childish strawmanning against the OP?

[Xerrai]

OP there is something called the "suspension of disbelief". This is honesly just seems like you are thinking a bit too hard on the specifics.

 

Having to restock on arrows/traps/knives would be nothing but a tedium. Combined with 'realistic' scenarios like rouges/warriors not being able do half of their "mage-like" effects, and you will essentially have a really unbalanced game that downright encourages the player to play as a mage because of their default superior strength/sustainability (both in and out of combat).

 

Basically the "mage-ness" of rogues and warriors is simply necessary in game development if they want to have warriors and rogues to be just as viable as mages.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

OP there is something called the "suspension of disbelief". This is honesly just seems like you are thinking a bit too hard on the specifics.

 

Having to restock on arrows/traps/knives would be nothing but a tedium. Combined with 'realistic' scenarios like rouges/warriors not being able do half of their "mage-like" effects, and you will essentially have a really unbalanced game that downright encourages the player to play as a mage because of their default superior strength/sustainability (both in and out of combat).

 

Basically the "mage-ness" of rogues and warriors is simply necessary in game development if they want to have warriors and rogues to be just as viable as mages.

 

Not necessarily. Mage in many fantasy games are glass cannons meaning that they are powerful but they have low health / low defense. Besides, you have Templars that can counter magic. I mean Holy Smite from DAO and Silence from DA2 can shut down mages pretty easily. If you are a Rogue a single target ability like Arrow of Slaying or Full Draw coupled with Stealth can take out mages easily without relying on pseudo-magic.Furthermore, if you are a Rogue you can overwhelm a mage with critical attacks if you are attacking them from the right position. I enjoyed playing as a Rogue in DAO and besides the Ranger specialization, they are not very magic-ish.

 

Why would restocking arrows/traps/knives be a tedium ? We restock our supplies of potions and grenades in this game and no one sees that as a form of tedium.

 

If you notice, I did not say anywhere that Rogues need to have their stealth scrapped. They simply should be able to perform their attacks from specific positions manually. I also proposed including Rogue abilities that stunned targets. We had such an ability in DAO called Dirty Fighting. Using Stealth & Dirty Fighting followed by backstabs is a lot more believable and makes the Rogue class unique as opposed to relying on teleporting Flank Attacks for instance.

 

You can have mages who actually use magic as well as more grounded warriors and rogues while still retaining game balance.

[Witch Cocktor]

Oh yeah good idea.

 

With archers, let's make it that they have to generate focus to shoot an arrow, and if they are hit once while generating it, they lose all their focus. And then, if you get enough focus, you can shoot an arrow, but you have to manually aim it. Then if you run out of arrows, tough luck, escape battle and restock at camp and try again.

 

Let's make it that you have to build your own traps with a rogue and that's a minigame itself. No '' go to camp and restock '' nah, you have to gather the materials and build the trap yourself. And you can only carry like 2 at the time because they're pretty big traps. Now, you've placed the trap on the battlefield, great, 95% chance is that the enemy won't walk over it, because why would they, they see it in the plain sight! But you can camouflage them, but you have to gather the materials to camouflage your trap and it takes a slot from your trap slot, so you can only place one. But the enemy might see you placing the trap, so there's a minigame to place the trap. FUN FUN!

 

And when lathering your knives with poison, first you have to make the poison and then there's a limited amount of it. Whenever you run out, oh alright, back to caves to kill spiders so you can restock on your favorite deadly poison!

 

Fun games fun games.

[Kakistos_]

I have no problem with lore accurate reasons as to why Warriors and Rogues have unique abilities. After all they are in fact NOT Magic. I do sympathise with the notion that there are perhaps too many ways a Warrior or Rogue can get special abilities. That said my biggest complain is when Warrior and Rogue abilities LOOK like they're casting spells in-game. They should have as many skills and talents as Mages do but aesthetically they should look more mundane, unless of course their power is rooted in Lyrium or Spirits.

[Silcron]

I personally don't have a problem with abilities being flashy, but I wish the controls went a bit more into action game instead of DAI's sort of looking like one. (I din't have a problem with DAO or even DA2 combat. It's just that to me DAI went that way, but not far enough for me.).

Something like parries, dodges and manual positioning being a thing instead of dragon's fireballs or arrows curving mid air to hit you because you walked out of the way instead of using the dodge skill. Work some simple combos, doesn't need to be anything super difficult. Something like, two handed heavy attack is an horizontal slash good for aoe, light attack followed by heavy is an overhead that with an upgrade from the skilltree might knock an enemy down but nontheless does more single target damage.

That's for rogues and warriors, mages feel fine as they are, but I think the more active approach to those classes, manual positioning and timing counting more could make them fun to play while also being effective. I'm thinking of a warrior parrying and riposting to get a garanteed crit, or a rogue dodging behind the enemy as he attacks to get the extra damage of hitting from behind, or the archer just having to move sideways to hit the guy where the isn't a shield.

You know, make them about manually blocking, dodging or parrying attacks, and working to get those garanteed crits while sure, mages may not be as interactive, but even lorewise they are just going to stand back and select where and to whom they cast their spells.

[Super Drone]

snip

 

I could actually get behind this idea. If you made it so playing Rogues and Warriors felt like a playing a different game than playing a Mage, they could actually make the baseline abilities for them more grounded without castrating them back to the DAO "shuffle-Shuffle-auto-attack-shuffle" garbage (Warriors sucked in DAO). 

 

This will, of course, cause the "Dragon Age must be Baldur's Gate" contingent to freak out over Rogues and Warriors being too "twitch-based", but all those people play Mages anyway... 

[Tidus]

All three of my rogues are tanks and therefore I use brute force no traps, no poison, no backstabbing  none of that stuff. Of course I always preferred toe to toe slicing and dicing game play. My main mage Morrigan is tanked, uses powerful magicks and has "group heal".

 

I'm not above using just my three rogues on some quest.

[Wulfram]

I personally don't have a problem with abilities being flashy, but I wish the controls went a bit more into action game instead of DAI's sort of looking like one. (I din't have a problem with DAO or even DA2 combat. It's just that to me DAI went that way, but not far enough for me.).

Something like parries, dodges and manual positioning being a thing instead of dragon's fireballs or arrows curving mid air to hit you because you walked out of the way instead of using the dodge skill. Work some simple combos, doesn't need to be anything super difficult. Something like, two handed heavy attack is an horizontal slash good for aoe, light attack followed by heavy is an overhead that with an upgrade from the skilltree might knock an enemy down but nontheless does more single target damage.

That's for rogues and warriors, mages feel fine as they are, but I think the more active approach to those classes, manual positioning and timing counting more could make them fun to play while also being effective. I'm thinking of a warrior parrying and riposting to get a garanteed crit, or a rogue dodging behind the enemy as he attacks to get the extra damage of hitting from behind, or the archer just having to move sideways to hit the guy where the isn't a shield.

You know, make them about manually blocking, dodging or parrying attacks, and working to get those garanteed crits while sure, mages may not be as interactive, but even lorewise they are just going to stand back and select where and to whom they cast their spells.

That might be where the next Dragon Age needs to go, but it'd mean basically ditching the idea that the game is playable as a party based tactical game. You can't demand that amount of player involvement and focus on an individual character and expect them to control 4 of them. And if you make the AI actually good at running the companions in order to take the pressure off the player, then you'll make the player feel kind of pointless, if not an actual liability.

And once you'd changed the game so that action gameplay for warriors made sense, you wouldn't really have much space left in it for non-action Mages, so you'd have to change them too.

[NRieh]

 

Speaking of weird Rogue stuff, what's up with Mark of Death. I previous two games, it was just an ability like a dye of sorts that highlighted a target's weakness. Now it a spell-esque ability can somehow accurately store the damage taken from all sources, total them up and then detonate to add that totaled up damaged. That is just as ridiculous as having a thieves' lantern that can teleport someone through space and time. Since when thieves became experts in advanced physics ?

To me MoD had always been something like 'poking targets where it hurts so that they take more damage\ do less damage'. Don't see much of a problem here. Cummulative damage part is trickier to explain, but any skill or spell is a formality after all.

 

 I agree that DAI rogues were way too 'magic', though. Both with the nature of their skillsets and (which is worse) with the visuals. DAO DW rogues were...well, fighting with their daggers, they did not have all that 'flash-boom-bang'. Then again  there were bards and rangers, but those had been like a tribute to DnD classes, which is fine by me. Those X-mas-disco DAO passives and auras though...that was...well, let's just say that I do not miss them. 

[Duelist]

I could actually get behind this idea. If you made it so playing Rogues and Warriors felt like a playing a different game than playing a Mage, they could actually make the baseline abilities for them more grounded without castrating them back to the DAO "shuffle-Shuffle-auto-attack-shuffle" garbage (Warriors sucked in DAO).

Same here. Melee classes have always sorely lacked the kind of mobility and responsiveness I prefer although they have come moved away from the "shuffle-auto attack" days.

Of course if other games are anything to go by, Fragile Speedster type classes become OP when able to move freely so it's liable to spark more crying mage fans.

[Super Drone]

That might be where the next Dragon Age needs to go, but it'd mean basically ditching the idea that the game is playable as a party based tactical game. You can't demand that amount of player involvement and focus on an individual character and expect them to control 4 of them. And if you make the AI actually good at running the companions in order to take the pressure off the player, then you'll make the player feel kind of pointless, if not an actual liability.

And once you'd changed the game so that action gameplay for warriors made sense, you wouldn't really have much space left in it for non-action Mages, so you'd have to change them too.

 

Meh. They could split the difference and make one build of Warriors and Rogues super mobile, and another with a ton of passives that can just auto-attack. (Two-Handed and Dual Daggers vs Sword'n'Shield and Archery, for example). Then make the default build for the NPCs be the passive build, and don't bother refining the AI for them. 

 

I am guessing blindly, but I would wager most of the people who would want a super-mobile Warrior or Rogue are the kind that let the 3 companions do their own thing 90% of the time anyway. 

[Kimarous]

Why would restocking arrows/traps/knives be a tedium ? We restock our supplies of potions and grenades in this game and no one sees that as a form of tedium.

 

Because some of us already play the Elder Scrolls games and there it IS tedious to run out of arrows and have to either go get/find/buy more or hope the arrows you shot are recoverable.

 

Grenades are specialty items for select situations, not your regular form of attack. As for attacking things with potions... this isn't Final Fantasy with "Zombie" status enemies.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Because some of us already play the Elder Scrolls games and there it IS tedious to run out of arrows and have to either go get/find/buy more or hope the arrows you shot are recoverable.

 

So your complaint is that when playing a non-magical class is that you have to do non-magical things such as buy ammunition or craft ammunition or resupply ammunition or scavenge for ammunition ? If so. why are you playing a non magical class if doing non magical things is tedious for you ?

 

At least Pillars of Eternity had the decent sense to actually call some Rogue abilities as magic / soul manipulation. When it comes to playing Rogues in the future games, I think the DAO approach is the best one since it works well with a tactical camera.

[Kurogane335]

So your complaint is that when playing a non-magical class is that you have to do non-magical things such as buy ammunition or craft ammunition or resupply ammunition or scavenge for ammunition ? If so. why are you playing a non magical class if doing non magical things is tedious for you ?

Then how come mages can run three kilometres and cast powerful spells ? if you want it to be realistic, mages shouldn't be able to do so, because almost all of them aren't sportive at all and require a lot of lyrium and long rituals to cast a spell.

 

Plus, why would I want to play a shitty class like mages ? I don't like magic. I like hitting stuff in the face. I don't like the action game system that the game has become since DA2 while DAO was much better, with actual tactics, no need for more than one mage in the group if you wanted to (and even then you could go through most of the game without them, except for the run-up to bosses). I don't care if it is unrealistic to not have to craft/buy arrows or potions/bombs. Because a mage is already unrealistic to begin with ! You're "logic" is totally skewed toward "muh like mages, other class are ****".

 

Well, sorry to tell you this, but not everyone share this belief. In fact, if mages could be toned down a lot in the game and return to their Origin style, when they weren't suddenly jumping everywhere, but had to remain mostly in the same place to attack normally with they spells, it would be great.

[NRieh]

I am guessing blindly, but I would wager most of the people who would want a super-mobile Warrior or Rogue are the kind that let the 3 companions do their own thing 90% of the time anyway.

I'd say that it's a good thing...that's if I'm the one who scripts the AI. There's nothing wrong with the mobility in a non-turn-based game, and need to micromanage is hardly an advantage. Man, I'd love to see DAO flexibility married to DAI Mobility and giving birth to DA4. 8P