125 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

A good example of Rogues that act beyond ridiculous are the Harlequins. In Halamshiral, you can find one who does a spinning backstab. drops a smoke bomb and teleports to a balcony a few miles away within a split second.

[Qis]

Some argue that "this is fantasy setting", but Dark Souls also a fantasy, i can play 100% warrior without touching magic at all...

 

Killing gods with Bastard Sword

[AnimalBoy]

People just need to stop complaining about the small things and just play the game.

[Xerrai]

A good example of Rogues that act beyond ridiculous are the Harlequins. In Halamshiral, you can find one who does a spinning backstab. drops a smoke bomb and teleports to a balcony a few miles away within a split second.

They were teleporting? I always thought of them as using a super effective stealth ability (the smoke they cause is similar to the one we usually use...) that makes them invisible. Only their ability does not even let you see a shimmering transparent outline. 

[Kimarous]

So your complaint is that when playing a non-magical class is that you have to do non-magical things such as buy ammunition or craft ammunition or resupply ammunition or scavenge for ammunition ? If so. why are you playing a non magical class if doing non magical things is tedious for you ?

 

So all "non-magical" classes use "ammunition"? I wasn't aware stabbing with daggers or swinging a sword took "ammo".

 

Crafting is a pain, period. Magic, mundane, whatever. Smithing takes forever, recovering arrows is tedious, mixing potion ingredients either requires memorization or trial by fire, and that's not even getting into the "supply" side of "supply and demand."

 

You whine about magic, and your answer is CRAFTING! To hell with that noise!

[Tidus]

Magick is unrealistic since there's no such thing.. Swords, Draggers, shields, bows and arrows realistic because they exist..

 

No need to use rogue magicks simply because you can.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

People just need to stop complaining about the small things and just play the game.

 

So I guess when someone brings up a valid complain next time, this is how you answer them ? Wow....

[Kimarous]

So I guess when someone brings up a valid complain next time, this is how you answer them ? Wow....

 

Your "valid complaint" raises more problems than it "solves." It's a non-issue. So what if warriors and rogues have abilities that SEEM like magic? Is it actually magic? No? Then what's the problem?

[Bayonet Hipshot]

So all "non-magical" classes use "ammunition"? I wasn't aware stabbing with daggers or swinging a sword took "ammo".

 

Crafting is a pain, period. Magic, mundane, whatever. Smithing takes forever, recovering arrows is tedious, mixing potion ingredients either requires memorization or trial by fire, and that's not even getting into the "supply" side of "supply and demand."

 

You whine about magic, and your answer is CRAFTING! To hell with that noise!

 

Why not ? You can throw a limited amount of daggers at a target.

 

Crafting is pain only if you are the sort of slothful lazy people who believe everything should just happen and everything should just be there without justification. Hard work and prep ? Forget about that.

 

So what if smithing takes a long time ? It takes a long time to unlock the most powerful spells.

 

Recovering arrows is a tedious thing ? Talk about taking laziness and being a sloth to a whole new level. FFS, even superheroes like Hawkeye and Green Arrow recover arrows.

 

Mixing potion ingredients requires memorization ? Then memorize, or are you suffering from short term memory loss ?

 

In a fantasy setting, the only believable way for someone to catch up to magic or emulate it is via crafting such as engineering, alchemy, smithing and enchanting. Not via pseudo magic BS.

 

FYI, if you are in Thedas right now, you would have probably been possessed by a Sloth Demon.

 

Your "valid complaint" raises more problems than it "solves." It's a non-issue. So what if warriors and rogues have abilities that SEEM like magic? Is it actually magic? No? Then what's the problem?

 

The problem is that non-magical classes should not be capable of feats that have been described as magically impossible in the lore.

 

Classic case is teleportation. It has been stated that Theodosian magic does not allow for teleportation, it is impossible. Yet we have Rogues teleporting through space and time as though it is normal.

 

Bioware has always stated they want to make a believable world but how exactly believable is it when non magical classes are regularly performing acts that are deemed magically impossible without using any form of advanced technology ? There is also the fact that it breaks immersion.

 

But I suppose you don't really care about lore, immersion and believability. To you as long as something looks "kewl", its okay. Damn the implications. 

[sniper_arrow]

Why not ? You can throw a limited amount of daggers at a target.

 

Crafting is pain only if you are the sort of slothful lazy people who believe everything should just happen and everything should just be there without justification. Hard work and prep ? Forget about that.

 

So what if smithing takes a long time ? It takes a long time to unlock the most powerful spells.

 

Recovering arrows is a tedious thing ? Talk about taking laziness and being a sloth to a whole new level. FFS, even superheroes like Hawkeye and Green Arrow recover arrows.

 

Mixing potion ingredients requires memorization ? Then memorize, or are you suffering from short term memory loss ?

 

In a fantasy setting, the only believable way for someone to catch up to magic or emulate it is via crafting such as engineering, alchemy, smithing and enchanting. Not via pseudo magic BS.

 

FYI, if you are in Thedas right now, you would have probably been possessed by a Sloth Demon.

 

 

The problem is that non-magical classes should not be capable of feats that have been described as magically impossible in the lore.

 

Classic case is teleportation. It has been stated that Theodosian magic does not allow for teleportation, it is impossible. Yet we have Rogues teleporting through space and time as though it is normal.

 

Bioware has always stated they want to make a believable world but how exactly believable is it when non magical classes are regularly performing acts that are deemed magically impossible without using any form of advanced technology ? There is also the fact that it breaks immersion.

 

But I suppose you don't really care about lore, immersion and believability. To you as long as something looks "kewl", its okay. Damn the implications. 

 

I'll keep this brief:

 

Who cares? As long as those skills, magical or not, are useful in my battles, I say let 'em rip.

 

But, since you wanted actual realism into the warrior/rogue class and crafting, not everyone (I'd say majority) is not into what you are suggesting. For them, it would be a complete waste of time since all they want to do is to simply destroy their enemies without worrying what ingredients they need to memorize in creating that potion.

 

Also, it's fantasy game, but everyone has a different POV on that genre.

[Kimarous]

Why not ? You can throw a limited amount of daggers at a target.

 

And what does that have to do with melee combat?

 

Crafting is pain only if you are the sort of slothful lazy people who believe everything should just happen and everything should just be there without justification. Hard work and prep ? Forget about that.

 

Oh ho... that's all you can come up with? I'm just "lazy"? You're just "boring".

 

So what if smithing takes a long time ? It takes a long time to unlock the most powerful spells.

 

Then we ALL waste our time on monotony instead of doing something worthwhile!

 

Recovering arrows is a tedious thing ? Talk about taking laziness and being a sloth to a whole new level. FFS, even superheroes like Hawkeye and Green Arrow recover arrows.

 

And how much panel time is given to recovering every single arrow? Where's the deleted scene of Hawkeye after the assault on New York, plunking free every single arrow he shot at the aliens?

 

Mixing potion ingredients requires memorization ? Then memorize, or are you suffering from short term memory loss ?

 

Taking about "The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim" in this context. Either you know what ingredient does what beforehand (memorization) or trial and error experimentation. Just want an invisibility potion? Either fiddle around with a crafting system for ages, trying to find the right ingredients (manually gathered, of course) and mix and match them until find compatible ingredients... or cheat and use either a hard copy guidebook or online walkthrough. Truly, it's "suffering from short term memory loss" that makes this distasteful.

 

In a fantasy setting, the only believable way for someone to catch up to magic or emulate it is via crafting such as engineering, alchemy, smithing and enchanting. Not via pseudo magic BS.

 

Alchemy and enchanting ARE "pseudo magic BS". Engineering? Sufficiently advanced enough can seem like magic. And if we're talking general "fantasy" settings here, there are other ways of "catching up" to magic without having to resort to arms - like the "chi" of Eastern style monks and ninjas, differing from mana/magic. I've never had my suspension of disbelief shattered by having two systems of mythic capability. Shame that you seem to think otherwise.

 

FYI, if you are in Thedas right now, you would have probably been possessed by a Sloth Demon.

 

Not before you succumbed to Pride.

 

The problem is that non-magical classes should not be capable of feats that have been described as magically impossible in the lore.

 

Non-game books have templars doing all kinds of "pseudo magic" shenanigans that you would consider "impossible in the lore" or otherwise consider "unbelievable."

 

Classic case is teleportation. It has been stated that Theodosian magic does not allow for teleportation, it is impossible. Yet we have Rogues teleporting through space and time as though it is normal.

 

First off, where? Cite your sources. Second, you know my aformentioned comment about ninja chi? Flash-stepping: non-magical yet extraordinary speed faster than the eye can see. Perhaps not established in lore, but my mind doesn't hesitate to interpret that as such. At any rate, it doesn't get hung-up about nitpicky issues like this.

 

Bioware has always stated they want to make a believable world but how exactly believable is it when non magical classes are regularly performing acts that are deemed magically impossible without using any form of advanced technology ? There is also the fact that it breaks immersion.

 

I think the rest of my comments serve as response enough to this.

 

But I suppose you don't really care about lore, immersion and believability. To you as long as something looks "kewl", its okay. Damn the implications.

 

And you'd have "believability" drag the series down into monotony, damn the consequences.

[vertigomez]

I think are other issues of realism that take precedent.

Like how no one ever has severe brain damage from all the times they've been cracked in the skull, or how no one ever needs to take a ****** when they're out adventuring for days at a time, or how Morrigan justifies wearing a medieval bikini in Ferelden.

[Qis]

When non-magical people do magical stuff, then the whole premise about magic fall in Dragon Age...

 

Magic is dangerous, vile, scary, demonic, fearsome....Mages need to be locked in towers and lobotomized if needed and so they will not bring harm to the people....but Tempest Archer, blowing up everyone as breakfast...

 

[Dabrikishaw]

Is it just me or are Rogues and Warriors becoming more and more mage-like ?

 

To be fair, Warriors are not so offensive in their magic-wannabeness. Most of their magical ability can actually be explained within the in game lore.

 

For instance, a Reaver is a Warrior that consumes Dragon's blood to gain some special powers, a Templar is a Warrior that uses Titan's blood to gain some special powers and a Spirit Warrior interacts with the inhabitants of the Fade in order to gain special powers in exchange of the spirit being able to glimpse the physical world. The only real head-scratcher when it comes to Warriors are their ability to generate armor out of nowhere (the game calls this "generate guard").

 

The Rogues though, go all out in their drive to be wannabe mages. Archers have unlimited arrows (even though no Codex entry has mentioned the existence of enchanted quivers), Rangers can summon animal companions magically, they can have access to decoys which can be rigged to explode, they can teleport behind a target or across the map to someone else, they can have unlimited knockout bombs, unlimited throwing blades, unlimited elixir's, unlimited spike traps, unlimited elemental mines and worst of all, unlimited space-time teleportation lanterns. I know the Tempest's elixirs have an in game explanation, but the fact you can carry unlimited amounts of them is ridiculous. At this rate, Rogues are going to end up being pseudo mages with sneak / flank attacks and stealth.

 

Come on Bioware, there needs to be some distinction between the magic class and the non-magic classes, especially between Mages and the Rogues. Warriors are not so offensive and actually have to take some risks like becoming an addict (Templar) and turning violent as well as growing scales (Reavers).

 

What risks do Artificers take, especially considering that they have lanterns that can teleport someone through the space-time continuum, restore their health and their restore their stamina ? What risks to Shadows take, given that they can create a life like decoy of themselves with just their stamina ?

I can see the argument that several of the Warrior specializations allow normal people to become somewhat magical, but not any of  the Rouge specializations. The rest of these is standard game-story segregation.

[NRieh]

So what if warriors and rogues have abilities that SEEM like magic? Is it actually magic? No? Then what's the problem?

Why wouldn't they just make it SEEM NOT like magic then, hmm? Sounds simple, no?

[SgtSteel91]

Maybe the other classes skirting the line of being Magic or not highlights the fact that everyone is capable of magic, given that at one point the Fade and Physical world were one, before Solas erected the Veil and cut off Magic to most of the population?

[AppealToReason]

This reminds me of when CoD quickscopers were starting riots in forums because it wasn't realistic you could hit someone with a sniper bullet and they shake it off since it was ruining their montages, while ignoring that there is no way to accurately fire off a 45lb gun with shoulder breaking recoil while zooming in half a second and spinning 7 times. No, the bullet damage was the unrealistic part that ruined the fun of the game.

 

If we want to get "realistic" or "lore smart" with mages, their mana shouldn't recover during a fight and casting more than 2 powerful spells per day would leave them an exhausted liability unable to do anything. If you read any of the books or stories in the codexes, mages are exhausted after a single conflict and using a powerful spell nearly leaves them unable to stand and any more contact with the fade after that leaves them nearly unable to prevent themselves from possession.

 

But mana regenerates because its fun to fire lots of big devastating spells. The same was its fun to have ethereal dragon claws come out of your hands to attack an enemy, or to throw out a ton of traps and arrows quickly or become a misty ghost figure to stab someone.

[straykat]

This reminds me of when CoD quickscopers were starting riots in forums because it wasn't realistic you could hit someone with a sniper bullet and they shake it off since it was ruining their montages, while ignoring that there is no way to accurately fire off a 45lb gun with shoulder breaking recoil while zooming in half a second and spinning 7 times. No, the bullet damage was the unrealistic part that ruined the fun of the game.

 

If we want to get "realistic" or "lore smart" with mages, their mana shouldn't recover during a fight and casting more than 2 powerful spells per day would leave them an exhausted liability unable to do anything. If you read any of the books or stories in the codexes, mages are exhausted after a single conflict and using a powerful spell nearly leaves them unable to stand and any more contact with the fade after that leaves them nearly unable to prevent themselves from possession.

 

But mana regenerates because its fun to fire lots of big devastating spells. The same was its fun to have ethereal dragon claws come out of your hands to attack an enemy, or to throw out a ton of traps and arrows quickly or become a misty ghost figure to stab someone.

 

I agree with your main point.. Mages would be boring if they had to worry about the fade too much (or even at all?). I wouldn't mind more narrative missions that put this struggle to the test though.

 

But, they still could do with some less goofy melee moves. Like Earthquake is just childish. I don't need a lot of realism, but would like a general skillset that reflects actual martial abilities. Or cleverness, in the case of rogues (and for the most part, the rogues do reflect this well enough).

[Phoe77]

I can't say that I'm bothered by the way things are.  It seems to me that the vast majority of warrior and rogue abilities are fairly mundane in nature, and the ones that aren't are usually explained at least a bit in the lore or can be addressed by understanding that what the game is showing us is an abstraction of what is really happening.  Is Blackwall really spawning ghostly copies of himself whenever he activates Hold the Line, or are those figures just a handy way of illustrating the area that he can cover using the tactics that he's decided to employ?  Is that rogue really teleporting behind his target, or is it just easier to show it that way ingame because it avoids trouble that might come from having a running animation that works regardless of terrain or surrounding obstacles?

 

The less realistic abilities are largely given by specializations that have a reason for possessing them.  Tempests are using chemistry to create volatile effects and altered perceptions.  Templar abilities come from lyrium and discipline.  I don't think we can call out rogues for being able to carry unlimited traps when your character is effortlessly toting around a dozen suits of armor and bags full of trinkets.  

 

As a whole, I think that Inquisition did a good job of making all of the classes have at least some unique flavor outside of their activated abilities.  Both types of rogues benefit from flanking bonuses just like they always did, and the game encourages the player to be mindful of a rogue's positioning both due to their lower durability and the fact that some of their better abilities work much better when the character is positioned just so.  Abilities like Shield Block and Parry both do wonders to make warriors more interesting to play as (at least to me) by making a shield more than something that provides an abstract defense bonus and turning it into something I can actively make use of.  Hopefully they'll continue building on such things in future games. 

[AppealToReason]

I agree with your main point.. Mages would be boring if they had to worry about the fade too much (or even at all?). I wouldn't mind more narrative missions that put this struggle to the test though.

 

But, they still could do with some less goofy melee moves. Like Earthquake is just childish. I don't need a lot of realism, but would like a general skillset that reflects actual martial abilities. Or cleverness, in the case of rogues (and for the most part, the rogues do reflect this well enough).

 

Sure, some of them could be dialed back but outside of a few abilities I don't think any are that egregious. Even tempest just needs the visuals dialed back as its not absurd that someone mastered elixirs they are able to coat their armor in for bonuses. Toss a little lyrium in the flask and that's the lore why you're not electrocuted or frozen. Its a magic rogue flask.

 

My point is that if the argument is to make the combat more friendly to the lore then warriors and rogues would be a lot closer to DAO shuffle-shuffle-pokey-poke-swing and mages would only be able to cast basic fireballs and spirit bolts without completely draining their energy and leaving them useless in future combat. Bringing a mage to a dragon fight might not even be worth it because after one big magic attack they'd be left shooting little puffs out of their staff or you're running the likelihood they become abominations.

 

Fun needs to have a place in entertainment.

[Obadiah]

I think most of the magicyness of DAI's melee and rogue classes would disappear if the game just toned down the damn effects.

[eyezonlyii]

Sure, some of them could be dialed back but outside of a few abilities I don't think any are that egregious. Even tempest just needs the visuals dialed back as its not absurd that someone mastered elixirs they are able to coat their armor in for bonuses. Toss a little lyrium in the flask and that's the lore why you're not electrocuted or frozen. Its a magic rogue flask.

 

My point is that if the argument is to make the combat more friendly to the lore then warriors and rogues would be a lot closer to DAO shuffle-shuffle-pokey-poke-swing and mages would only be able to cast basic fireballs and spirit bolts without completely draining their energy and leaving them useless in future combat. Bringing a mage to a dragon fight might not even be worth it because after one big magic attack they'd be left shooting little puffs out of their staff or you're running the likelihood they become abominations.

 

Fun needs to have a place in entertainment.

Actually, I think you're on to something here. I'll start with the "mundane" classes first.

Has anyone played Dragon's Dogma? That game was, like Dragon Age, set in a fantasy world, and with a party makeup. However the gameplay was vastly different. Warriors and rogues were more action oriented with combat rolls, manual blocking, etc. They had light and heavy attacks, and part of the leveling system was buying a few basic combos. On top of that you did have abilities, but they were much more, subdued, like a backward feint slash, or "1000 Kisses" which was basically multiple slashes with your daggers that ended with a combo kick. Basically, "realistic" but still fun fighting styles.

 

For Mages/Sorcerors, you still had basic spells, but you had to physically target and place them and some spells took longer than others to cast; you couldn't fust stand around throwing fireballs all day, you had to MOVE. They even had a healing spell that was a glyph and in order to be healed, a character had to stay in the field for a bit of time. Also, you couldn't be healed all the way, as your health bar only had a certain amount of recovery. For instance, if an attack did 75 points of damage, you might only be able to heal about 50 points in battle. 

 

So idea would be to lower the damage dealt by magic, severely mana recovery but still keep spell cost. Add a hidden count to address battle stress and the chance that a mage will have to fight a demon off from their mind. Kinda like in Kingdom Hearts 2 if you try to use a Drive form, there's a 25% chance that you will go into Heartless form and pretty much lose control for a couple of minutes. Not that I want mages to become abominations in gameplay, but maybe have them have sit out for a couple of minutes.

[SonnyKohler]

Magick is unrealistic since there's no such thing.. Swords, Draggers, shields, bows and arrows realistic because they exist..

 

No need to use rogue magicks simply because you can.

Cynic.  Haven't you ever heard of the "Magic of a Young Girl's Smile"?

 

I do believe in fairies!  I do believe in fairies!  I do believe in faries!

[Tidus]

Sonny,Of course but, that's a  metaphor..

[The Baconer]

So idea would be to lower the damage dealt by magic, severely mana recovery but still keep spell cost. Add a hidden count to address battle stress and the chance that a mage will have to fight a demon off from their mind. Kinda like in Kingdom Hearts 2 if you try to use a Drive form, there's a 25% chance that you will go into Heartless form and pretty much lose control for a couple of minutes. Not that I want mages to become abominations in gameplay, but maybe have them have sit out for a couple of minutes.

Pls no.