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David Gaider: "Varric was going to die in cancelled DA2 expansion"


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#126
prosthetic soul

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Or maybe because the simple fact that a character being a fun guy who happens to be a bit of a trickster doesn't automatically makes them a self-insert who shoves the Gay Agendatm down our throats.

 

Food for thought.

You view the glass as half full.  And I don't think Varric falls into the "trickster" character trope at any rate. He is a character who finds trouble and gets into trouble but he's sort of a reluctant rogue.  Certainly not a trickster by any manner of the word.  And yeah I'm going to have to stand by my point with Varric being a dbag behind the Inquisitor's back. 

 

It was passive aggressive.  And Varric isn't passive aggressive as a character, at least to those he's friends with.   It was an out of character move that did nothing but give the game an excuse not to wed the male "heter-roys." If Sera had asked Cass the preemptive question, I wouldn't have batted an eyelash. 

 

"But you're being unreasonable!  Why do you care so much?"

 

This is BioWare.  Nothing is unreasonable at this point. And I care about agenda pushing because I've had it up to here with agendas. 



#127
RoseLawliet

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You view the glass as half full.  And I don't think Varric falls into the "trickster" character trope at any rate. He is a character who finds trouble and gets into trouble but he's sort of a reluctant rogue.  Certainly not a trickster by any manner of the word.  And yeah I'm going to have to stand by my point with Varric being a dbag behind the Inquisitor's back. 

 

It was passive aggressive.  And Varric isn't passive aggressive as a character, at least to those he's friends with.   It was an out of character move that did nothing but give the game an excuse not to wed the male "heter-roys." If Sera had asked Cass the preemptive question, I wouldn't have batted an eyelash. 

 

"But you're being unreasonable!  Why do you care so much?"

 

This is BioWare.  Nothing is unreasonable at this point. And I care about agenda pushing because I've had it up to here with agendas. 

 

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but how did Varric ruin the thing with Cassandra? I know if she's romanced, that's the only time she won't say the "follow your heart" line, but is that really Varric's fault?



#128
Addictress

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Varric is probably my most-loved character of the entire series... like I feel like I am at home when he talks and I want to be his friend in my mind for all eternity

 

but yeah, it would've been kind of cool if he died



#129
Andreas Amell

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I'm glad they didn't kill him off. Now I'm hoping they get to reveal his history with Dusana Helmi. 



#130
ModernAcademic

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I used to like Varric quite a lot, he was my #1 favourite character when DA2 was all the hype until Inquisition came out and 1) he showed prejudice against Dorian for being upper class and 2) he was constantly trying to prove Cassandra was a naive woman, unable to have real friends.

 

I wonder what he considers himself to be, then, befriending thugs, smugglers and pirates, like Isabela, who abandon their friends when things get dire.

 

In DA2, if you manage to have rivalry with him, you find out he's a gossiper who tries hard to ruin your reputation in town. That's a sucker punch from someone who claims to be just your regular surface dwarf, taking care of his own business. 

 

Varric is duplicitous and clearly has a problem with people who come from different walks of life than his own. For someone who's supposedly sociable and chatty, who doesn't care who you are or where you're from so long as your words correspond to your actions - he proposes a partnership to Hawke, even if he doesn't know much about his background -, he's very hostile if you happen to have a noble ancestor somewhere in your bloodline. A funny thing, since his parents are considered to be a wealthy and succesful merchant house. Double standards?

 

He's not humble at all, nor does he judge everyone by their character, as he likes to demonstrate. Cassandra was more forgiving and honest in her evaluation of him than he was of her. She says she wants to change the Chantry so that Andrastians like Varric can join it someday. That's an admirable attitude for someone who demonstrates contempt for his dishonest ways. In return, what does Varric have to say about Cassandra? A zealot who has no friends. Sorry, but that's as blind as someone can be to a person's true character. And the blindness is voluntary.

 

I guess everyone has an ugly side. It's just a matter of finding out which characters' faults you can handle better and which ones you simply can't tolerate. 


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#131
vbibbi

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I used to like Varric quite a lot, he was my #1 favourite character when DA2 was all the hype until Inquisition came out and 1) he showed prejudice against Dorian for being upper class and 2) he was constantly trying to prove Cassandra was a naive woman, unable to have real friends.

 

I wonder what he considers himself to be, then, befriending thugs, smugglers and pirates, like Isabela, who abandon their friends when things get dire.

 

In DA2, if you manage to have rivalry with him, you find out he's a gossiper who tries hard to ruin your reputation in town. That's a sucker punch from someone who claims to be just your regular surface dwarf, taking care of his own business. 

 

Varric is duplicitous and clearly has a problem with people who come from different walks of life than his own. For someone who's supposedly sociable and chatty, who doesn't care who you are or where you're from so long as your words correspond to your actions - he proposes a partnership to Hawke, even if he doesn't know much about his background -, he's very hostile if you happen to have a noble ancestor somewhere in your bloodline. A funny thing, since his parents are considered to be a wealthy and succesful merchant house. Double standards?

 

He's not humble at all, nor does he judge everyone by their character, as he likes to demonstrate. Cassandra was more forgiving and honest in her evaluation of him than he was of her. She says she wants to change the Chantry so that Andrastians like Varric can join it someday. That's an admirable attitude for someone who demonstrates contempt for his dishonest ways. In return, what does Varric have to say about Cassandra? A zealot who has no friends. Sorry, but that's as blind as someone can be to a person's true character. And the blindness is voluntary.

 

I guess everyone has an ugly side. It's just a matter of finding out which characters' faults you can handle better and which ones you simply can't tolerate. 

 

I agree that his anger at Cassandra in DAI got tired after a while, but it was understandable. She unfairly imprisoned him until he finished telling his story, she was fairly threatening during much of the interrogation, even though she didn't physically harm him. And she's asking him to rat out his best friend. After Bartrand's betrayal, Varric isn't going to betray those close to him.

 

I have never played the rivalry path for Varric so I can't say how negative his actions are. The game does make it very hard to run a rival relationship with him, though. Rather than just being pro-mage or pro-templar or anti-slavery like most of the other companions' influence changes, Varric's influence is more specific to each situation and it takes a lot more trial and error (or metagaming) to select rival actions. I

 

I didn't see him as a dwarf just minding his own business affairs in Kirkwall. It's fairly obvious fairly quickly how many pies he has his fingers in. He has done work for the city guard, has had agents keeping Merrill safe on her way home, helps Anders' clinic. I think he prefers to work behind the scenes and not get involved in direct politics, which is why he's reluctant to become viscount in Trespasser and why he doesn't like going to dwarven mechant guild meetings. But he does like the intrigue and influence from working behind the scenes.

 

You seem to be contradicting yourself as you say he is intolerant of people with backgrounds different to him, but then say he befriends a pirate like Isabela, clearly from a different walk of life than him. And he knows full well Hawke's noble lineage when he meets him/her for the first time. Gamlen Amell was still living in Kirkwall when he went broke and it was a well-known scandal of Leandra eloping with a mage. This was one generation ago, it's still fresh in the minds of the nobility, including the well-connected Varric. He has no issue with Hawke being from a noble family. And by the time he meets Hawke face to face, Hawke has been working with the mercenary group or smugglers for a year and has gained a reputation for being good at what they do. He has been looking into financial backers for his brother's expedition, so he's done his homework on the potential funding Hawke can bring in.

 

 

 

I didn't feel him necessary as a companion in DAI, but I view his change in personality as the shift in the PC's relationship and perspective with Varric.

 

In DA2 we were buddies with Varric. In DAI, he meets us as a fellow prisoner conscripted into a Chantry-affiliated organization far from home. But we are soon elevated to a religious figure and become the face of the organization who conscripted him. Granted, he is free to go at any time and stays because he feels at fault for releasing Cory and red lyrium, but that doesn't mean he can't still be resentful of the Inquisition.

 

We're not good friends with Varric in DAI. I think he will always keep a barrier between himself and the Inquisitor, as he says he sees us more of an icon than an actual person. The books he writes about Hawke were pulp fiction crime novels, the everyman's struggles in the world. The books he writes about the Inquisition are sweeping epics with larger than life characters.


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#132
sim-ran

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All this DA2 love is bizarre. Where did you people come from?! :)

But seriously what a piece of rubbish that game was. No regrets it wasn't even longer than it was.

#133
ModernAcademic

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All this DA2 love is bizarre. Where did you people come from?!

 

From your imagination.



#134
sniper_arrow

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In DA2 we were buddies with Varric. In DAI, he meets us as a fellow prisoner conscripted into a Chantry-affiliated organization far from home. But we are soon elevated to a religious figure and become the face of the organization who conscripted him. Granted, he is free to go at any time and stays because he feels at fault for releasing Cory and red lyrium, but that doesn't mean he can't still be resentful of the Inquisition.

 

We're not good friends with Varric in DAI. I think he will always keep a barrier between himself and the Inquisitor, as he says he sees us more of an icon than an actual person. The books he writes about Hawke were pulp fiction crime novels, the everyman's struggles in the world. The books he writes about the Inquisition are sweeping epics with larger than life characters.

 

I wouldn't say Varric and the Inquisitor aren't close. If you have higher approval with him, he invites you to a card game just to show that the Inquisitor is also just a normal being who remains down to earth with their companions/friends. But I agree he and Hawke are more closer since they've known each other for several years. 



#135
vbibbi

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I wouldn't say Varric and the Inquisitor aren't close. If you have higher approval with him, he invites you to a card game just to show that the Inquisitor is also just a normal being who remains down to earth with their companions/friends. But I agree he and Hawke are more closer since they've known each other for several years. 

Eh, I interpret that as Varric reminding himself that the Inquisitor is a person, and maybe that he thinks he's doing the Inquisitor a solid by including him/her in a social gathering. And also allowing everyone (especially Cullen and Josie) to let off some steam since it's stressful running the Inquisition.

 

Even his scenes in Trespasser seem like a formal but friendly workplace friend relationship. He gives the Inquisitor the key to the city, says he'll give them their own place. Very public gestures. I imagine he would have told Hawke "there's a secret passage into the palace. Meet me there at midnight and we'll go out to the Hanged Man for some real fun!"


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#136
straykat

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I guess I agree, but I almost want to blame the whole direction of the writing. It's like the writers drew upon workplace experiences in general. The whole game is a little like that. It's such a big difference from DA2. A bad one.

 

If I wanted formal, I'd prefer a more stark war game.



#137
vbibbi

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I guess I agree, but I almost want to blame the whole direction of the writing. It's like the writers drew upon workplace experiences in general. The whole game is a little like that. It's such a big difference from DA2. A bad one.

 

If I wanted formal, I'd prefer a more stark war game.

 

I think the game could have been better implemented if we weren't made the leader of the Inquisition, we were just an agent who worked their way up the chain of command. That is more the level of political writing Bioware is capable of. Making the PC the "leader" of a newly formed and influential organization that deals in politics, military, and espionage was biting off more than they could chew. Their strength is characters and world building, not politics.


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#138
straykat

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I think the game could have been better implemented if we weren't made the leader of the Inquisition, we were just an agent who worked their way up the chain of command. That is more the level of political writing Bioware is capable of. Making the PC the "leader" of a newly formed and influential organization that deals in politics, military, and espionage was biting off more than they could chew. Their strength is characters and world building, not politics.

 

It's what I half expected actually. Then news came about the Breach and Conclave.. and I was worried. Although I figured at the very least, there'd be a prologue at the Conclave and this person would have an actual story. Surely it wouldn't be stupid as ME3's intro. Then I heard about the Herald thing and really got worried. lol


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#139
AlanC9

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Giving the PC an actual story is not universally loved among RPG players. A lot of us -- no idea of the percentage --prefer to make that stuff up ourselves. Though that always seemed like too much work to me, especially since I don't know if an invented background will trip over something revealed later in the game

#140
Nixou

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Giving the PC an actual story is not universally loved among RPG players. A lot of us -- no idea of the percentage --prefer to make that stuff up ourselves. Though that always seemed like too much work to me, especially since I don't know if an invented background will trip over something revealed later in the game

 

 

Which is why I think story-heavy RPGs should avoid the "blank-slate so the player can project themselves onto it" protagonists. The only way this type of character can work is if they're established early as strangers who just arrived in the setting, and you can only make so many "mysterious foreigner drift into a land in trouble and save the day" before the formula grows stale.


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#141
straykat

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Which is why I think story-heavy RPGs should avoid the "blank-slate so the player can project themselves onto it" protagonists. The only way this type of character can work is if they're established early as strangers who just arrived in the setting, and you can only make so many "mysterious foreigner drift into a land in trouble and save the day" before the formula grows stale.

 

It's far beyond stale. It's rotten and moldy and incubating a colony of blood sucking ticks.

 

 

OK, maybe I'm exaggerating. But not about the ticks. They're very real.



#142
In Exile

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Eh, I interpret that as Varric reminding himself that the Inquisitor is a person, and maybe that he thinks he's doing the Inquisitor a solid by including him/her in a social gathering. And also allowing everyone (especially Cullen and Josie) to let off some steam since it's stressful running the Inquisition.

 

Even his scenes in Trespasser seem like a formal but friendly workplace friend relationship. He gives the Inquisitor the key to the city, says he'll give them their own place. Very public gestures. I imagine he would have told Hawke "there's a secret passage into the palace. Meet me there at midnight and we'll go out to the Hanged Man for some real fun!"

 

Varric does it to remind everyone else the Inquisitor is a person, including the Inquisitor. He's never your friend, though. He straight up tells you that himself. Which is why his character is such a dud. 


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#143
Gold Dragon

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All this DA2 love is bizarre. Where did you people come from?! :)

But seriously what a piece of rubbish that game was. No regrets it wasn't even longer than it was.

 

For what it was, I actually kinda liked it.  An "interesting tale" told by Varric.

 

Admittedly, the repetitive nature and complete re-use of everything DID do a good job of turning at least the Gameplay into rubbish.  (I'm still having a few nightmares about that cave)



#144
Dlokir

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Maybe, but I definitely think they could have cut a few of the non-critical areas in favor of more plot.

I don't see the series coming back to small linear areas with weak exploration to favor a come back to plot CRPG design. Even less now there's been DAI and The Witcher 3. Both joined the ring to make a good combat against Skyrim/Bethesda approach, and giving up on this combat would be like admit they can't challenge the "king". Both TW3 and DAI gave some lessons to Bethesda and do some stuff better (but not all), if not quite better on some parts.

 

An union of best of TW3 and best of DAI would make ridiculous any Bethesda stuff, the only problems would be crafting and combats, and for combats I honestly don't see how solve it inside that sort of CRPG blueprint. More arguable the third problem would be for me quests structures, I don't mean the writing but the mechanics and tricks, TW3 is quite a failure on that and DAI does many stuff quite better alas many of the best are used for quests with almost no story or a too basic story. Still on that design aspect it's far to be at a level of a Divinity Original Sin but I know many fans of DA series or even TW series could bear such level and amount of tricks to manage and solve. So for me a problem but eventually not one to fix.