109 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

The antagonist can't win. Inquisition's problem is not that Corypheus loses at Haven (if anything, it's more of a draw), it's that the Inquisition and Corypheus don't match up again.

In an RPG, there's no way to have the antagonist win a fight without it being forced and cheesy. So the way to do it is to have the Antagonist succeed while the player kicks ass - whether by having multiple goals that the player can't stop at the same time, or having a clever enough red herring plan that the player loses by winning. The best example of the latter being Sun Li in JE - he won by tricking you into winning for him.

I wasn't specific enough, I know the antagonist can't actually win. I was thinking of the scenarios you describe.

My point is that the Antagonist and the Protagonist need to be in contact (directly or indirectly) and that needs to reinforce the threat the antagonist poses.

[In Exile]

I wasn't specific enough, I know the antagonist can't actually win. I was thinking of the scenarios you describe.

My point is that the Antagonist and the Protagonist need to be in contact (directly or indirectly) and that needs to reinforce the threat the antagonist poses.

I agree. The problem is that the game can't make the protagonist backed by a sufficiently powerful organization too quickly without having the antagonist backed by the same. After haven it feels like the Inquisition outpaces Corypheus and that renders him a dud. Games like XCOM and suikoden work by making the antagonist organisation more powerful than the PCs organization.

[Satirist]

No. That's definitely wrong. Just look at BioWare's history of releasing trailers. We can look at all the Mass Effect trailers and Dragon Age trailers. Unless BioWare specifies otherwise, the trailer is meant to show what BioWare aspires the game to be as well as showing the protagonist in action.

yeah, and this time they explicitely stated otherwise. what's your point?

you should consider using a dictionary every now and then, because when you write "definitely", what you actually mean is "in my humble opinion" (of course there's nothing humble in what you write). but that is all your post is: not fact, not "definitely", just your opinion. Which is rather paradox, since you're making a habit of reminding everyone not to assume speculations to be facts.

beside the point of the protagonist, bioware also put most emphasis on the fact that the launch trailer was created "in game", directly from frostbite and that this is what they aspire to in the finished game. that tells me, firstly, that they're not there yet and most if not all of the contents in the trailer are subject to further change. and secondly: the point of that trailer was to show off the game engine and what they aim for in regards to gameplay, while also setting the overall tone and theme for the game as exploration/colonization focussed, reminiscent of the colonization of the west.

again, claims about major plot points or details about the story based on a early stage teaser are rather far-fetched. or in your own words:

[...] until E3, I wouldn't assume too much. You know what happens to those who assume?

[Revan Reborn]

Corypheus was just a lame villain with an equally lame plot that was left over and unfinished from DAII. BioWare would have done better just discarding that nonsense altogether and going a different direction. Corypheus never matched up with the Inquisition because he was never intended for the Inquisition to start. He was intended for Hawke, but that expansion for DAII was scrapped and BioWare shoehorned it into DAI. In general, BioWare did a horrendous job of showing the power of the Inquisition anyway and it never appeared to me that the Inquisition was anymore of a threat than Corypheus.

 

What MEA should do in contrast is require the buildup of this player-led organization over the course of multiple games. Instead of just making you the figure head of some kingdom like in DAI, truly build upon that foundation through the story and make it a slow growth. The antagonist can have the benefit of having veteran N7 operatives on his side as well as using the power of the remnants to his advantage. This would more than explain the difference in power and how Ryder is able to "win" without it coming across as the protagonist just rendering the Ryder's purpose irrelevant.

 

BioWare could easily use the original trilogy of Star Wars as a perfect example. The first two films are a growing experience for Luke. It's not until the third film that he is able to confront Vader and ultimately defeat him. There is no reason the protagonist has to defeat Ryder so quickly. I wouldn't mind if we saw Ryder evolve over the course of three games rather than just being a villain in one.

[Revan Reborn]

<snip>

Instead of actually refuting any of my points, you make use of a typical Straw Man and attack my character because you have no credible response. A job well done. If you have nothing else to offer to the discussion, feel free to post elsewhere. Your petty attempts at insults merely reduce what little credibility you ever had. Believe what you want. You only make yourself look more the fool when you just assume everything BioWare tells you is a lie.

[Helios969]

What does it matter?  He/she will either be the protagonist, antagonist, or neither.  We'll know in about a year.

[Revan Reborn]

What does it matter?  He/she will either be the protagonist, antagonist, or neither.  We'll know in about a year.

We don't know who "Ryder" is, if Ryder is anyone. All we do know is that it BioWare has teased the name twice with a Johnny Cash song and a dogtag in two different MEA trailers. BioWare also based Shepard's name off the first American to ever go to space, so it wouldn't be surprising if they used a similar rationale for Ryder. We also know that they explicitly stated the character in the E3 trailer is not the protagonist, which could very well mean it's Ryder if the protagonist is not.

 

It's all just speculation and that's perfectly fine. What is not okay is to just disregard everything and believe BioWare is lying about their trailers for "reasons" because you don't agree with the speculation. That's just nonsense. BioWare doesn't just feed us these messages for no reason. They always leave hints and clues in their trailers. They even made it crystal clear this was intentional. Once we finally know the truth, it will likely surprise many just how much BioWare was actually teasing.

[We'll bang okay]

It would only be cliche if the execution was poor. Having some sort of tangible connection to the antagonist would do a lot from a storytelling perspective. It's something I'd be in full support of just because most antagonists in BioWare games are actually rather forgettable. The difference in level of quality between KotOR 1 (BioWare) and KotOR 2 (Obsidian) for the antagonist is a perfect example. Malak is a generic and forgettable villain. Kreia, on the other hand, was amazing and really made me question seriously whether the Sith were wrong, the Jedi, or both.

See I don't know if BioWare can write that type of Villain. With Malak It was easy because it's Star wars and he is a sith. So we have to destroy him. and when you learn he betrayed you it's still oh we have to stop him because he is evil. But if you go Dark side it's just time to get Revenge, so all and all to me it's just so so unless I missed something. But Kreia on the other as BioWare didn't write her, But she is in my top ten antagonists.

 

And besides what would anyone have to gain betraying you, You are in whole different galaxy where you are pretty much taking over there land. 

[Heimdall]

See I don't know if BioWare can write that type of Villain. With Malak It was easy because it's Star wars and he is a sith. So we have to destroy him. and when you learn he betrayed you it's still oh we have to stop him because he is evil. But if you go Dark side it's just time to get Revenge, so all and all to me it's just so so unless I missed something. But Kreia on the other as BioWare didn't write her, But she is in my top ten antagonists.

Bioware also did Sun Li, who was a remarkably well executed villain with a personal connection to the protagonist (foster father), with one of the best betrayal moments I've seen in a game.

[We'll bang okay]

Bioware also did Sun Li, who was a remarkably well executed villain with a personal connection to the protagonist (foster father), with one of the best betrayal moments I've seen in a game.

Don't hate me but I had to look up what game they where from... So yeah If you didn't know by now I never played Jade Empire. Want to But I just never did.

[Heimdall]

Don't hate me but I had to look up what game they where from... So yeah If you didn't know by now I never played Jade Empire. Want to But I just never did.

Its Bioware's most underrated game imo. And their first original IP after their success with Baldur's Gate and KOTOR. It's a bit linear and rather short, but fun.

[Revan Reborn]

Its Bioware's most underrated game imo. And their first original IP after their success with Baldur's Gate and KOTOR. It's a bit linear and rather short, but fun.

It's a shame, really. Jade Empire came out at the end of the original Xbox's life cycle and just never found an audience. All BioWare had under their belt in terms of consoles at that point was KotOR 1 on the original Xbox. By the time JE came out, the new generation of consoles was on the way with the Xbox 360 releasing later in the year. Sun Li was definitely one of BioWare's best villains, largely because he wasn't just a typical "evil" guy and you had a long established relationship with him. That being said, he still isn't even in the same league as Kreia. BioWare could really learn a lot from their peers in terms of how to develop a proper villain.

[ZipZap2000]

This is the third thread today with people using the term 'strawman'

[In Exile]

Bioware also did Sun Li, who was a remarkably well executed villain with a personal connection to the protagonist (foster father), with one of the best betrayal moments I've seen in a game.

It's their best written game, especially structurally. Because, among other things, it actually has a structure and - miraculously! - the plot doesn't spin its wheels the entire game. DA:I is probably the closest game to it in terms of a game that at least tries not to spin its wheels. Whereas ME is awful at plotting, and does spend the entire game spinning its wheels. Much like DA:O and KoTOR. Although the good Bioware games make up for their poor plotting with good vignettes. 

[Revan Reborn]

This is the third thread today with people using the term 'strawman'

Perhaps because half the posters on this forum are guilty of using a "Straw Man." Based on how you just spelled the term, you, and many others, should probably research what the phrase actually means. I have never seen this level of absurdity on any other forum. It's no wonder BioWare rarely has a presence on BSN.

 

It's their best written game, especially structurally. Because, among other things, it actually has a structure and - miraculously! - the plot doesn't spin its wheels the entire game. DA:I is probably the closest game to it in terms of a game that at least tries not to spin its wheels. Whereas ME is awful at plotting, and does spend the entire game spinning its wheels. Much like DA:O and KoTOR. Although the good Bioware games make up for their poor plotting with good vignettes. 

Funny how you say the ME trilogy, KotOR, and DAO all are bad for allegedly "spinning [their] wheels," yet you applaud DAI and JE for a job well done? You might want to get your eyes checked, friend. JE was a good game, but it was far from perfect and certainly wasn't better than KotOR. KotOR, DAO, and ME are BioWare's best examples of quality storytelling and their successes alone proves that.

 

You might want to see if you can get Mike Laidlaw to start writing stories for BioWare games again, considering he was the lead writer on JE. He has been the creative director on Dragon Age since at least DAII (maybe he was CD on DAO as well) and he doesn't seem to be interested in changing his position.

[Heimdall]

@Revan Reborn

Settle down, In Exile only said that Jade Empire was the best in terms of writing, especially in structure, because Jade Empire had a very tightly written plot that tries to minimize detour.

He didn't say JE was better than all subsequent games.

[Chardonney]

Well, if Ryder actually turns up as being the antagonist, it doesn't really bother me that much. He can turn to the dark side as much as he want, as long as he is absolutely nothing like Kai Lame. 

[ZipZap2000]

Perhaps because half the posters on this forum are guilty of using a "Straw Man." Based on how you just spelled the term, you, and many others, should probably research what the phrase actually means. I have never seen this level of absurdity on any other forum. It's no wonder BioWare rarely has a presence on.

Well this isn't an overly defensive and angry post at all.

*chews varren*

You mad Pyjack?

[In Exile]

Perhaps because half the posters on this forum are guilty of using a "Straw Man." Based on how you just spelled the term, you, and many others, should probably research what the phrase actually means. I have never seen this level of absurdity on any other forum. It's no wonder BioWare rarely has a presence on BSN.

Funny how you say the ME trilogy, KotOR, and DAO all are bad for allegedly "spinning [their] wheels," yet you applaud DAI and JE for a job well done? You might want to get your eyes checked, friend. JE was a good game, but it was far from perfect and certainly wasn't better than KotOR. KotOR, DAO, and ME are BioWare's best examples of quality storytelling and their successes alone proves that.

You might want to see if you can get Mike Laidlaw to start writing stories for BioWare games again, considering he was the lead writer on JE. He has been the creative director on Dragon Age since at least DAII (maybe he was CD on DAO as well) and he doesn't seem to be interested in changing his position.

One, I didn't say any of the other games were "bad". I merely remarked on the structure. Two, if anything, I implied that the other games were so well written that they overcame plotting issues. Three, the best written game does not mean the best game. PST is a brilliantly written game with very mediocre gameplay. New Vegas is a well written and well structured game with godawful gameplay. Four, success doesn't prove quality. Unless you think that single Mario game has plot objectively superior to all Bioware games in virtue of sales along? These are all orthogonal qualities.

That said, I do think Laidlaw should go back to writing. I don't think he was responsible for the plot structure - I belive Lucas Kristjason was also a lead on that game and his stories tend to be well plotted and well done.

[Revan Reborn]

@Revan Reborn

Settle down, In Exile only said that Jade Empire was the best in terms of writing, especially in structure, because Jade Empire had a very tightly written plot that tries to minimize detour.

He didn't say JE was better than all subsequent games.

Your comment confuses me. I was merely disagreeing with him that the storytelling of JE is superior to other BioWare games. I agree that Sun Li is a higher quality antagonist, but that's really all JE has to show for. I personally don't see how the story is better than KotOR 1, DAO, and the ME trilogy, which is why I retorted his claim.

 

Well, if Ryder actually turns up as being the antagonist, it doesn't really bother me that much. He can turn to the dark side as much as he want, as long as he is absolutely nothing like Kai Lame. 

That won't be hard to achieve as Kain Leng was shoehorned into the last game as an excuse to keep Shepard busy. He was never a focus, so Ryder being better wouldn't be that difficult to pull off.

 

Well this isn't an overly defensive and angry post at all.

*chews varren*

You mad Pyjack?

Not at all. I merely sighed at your terrible attempt at being witty when you don't know what a Straw Man is. I merely compared your lack of knowing to many others on this forum who constantly use Straw Man arguments, which is most of the regulars. It's a sign of an inability to debate either due to incompetency or because they have a weak argument to start.

 

One, I didn't say any of the other games were "bad". I merely remarked on the structure. Two, if anything, I implied that the other games were so well written that they overcame plotting issues. Three, the best written game does not mean the best game. PST is a brilliantly written game with very mediocre gameplay. New Vegas is a well written and well structured game with godawful gameplay. Four, success doesn't prove quality. Unless you think that single Mario game has plot objectively superior to all Bioware games in virtue of sales along? These are all orthogonal qualities.

That said, I do think Laidlaw should go back to writing. I don't think he was responsible for the plot structure - I belive Lucas Kristjason was also a lead on that game and his stories tend to be well plotted and well done.

I never said they were better games than JE. I was disagreeing with you and stating they were better written. Your comments were purely opinion-based and I don't think many posters would share your views. Again, outside of Sun Li, the story and events of Jade Empire are rather forgettable. The game was far too short and half of the companions weren't even adequately developed. I can only assume BioWare must have cut out a lot of content before the game's release because it came across as incomplete. This is coming from someone who is a big JE fan, by the way. I just wouldn't state it was the story that made it great. I think that's one of the main reasons the game didn't perform well via sales.

 

I'm not sure what role Lucas played. I just know Mike was the lead writer and Drew also was a major writer for JE. Typically it's the lead writer that crafts the main story and events while the rest create companions and side content. If that structure held true for JE, it would suggest Mike was responsible for the plot pacing as well.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't think many posters would share your views. 

 

I totally do.

 

ME wasn't very well written to begin with.

[straykat]

I say the guy in the first trailer is actually Conrad, trying to spread the word of The Shepard to a new galaxy.

 

You're Ryder, sent by Shepard to eliminate him.

 

You can decide if that makes them the antagonist or not.

[Revan Reborn]

I totally do.

 

ME wasn't very well written to begin with.

In your opinion. It certainly had issues and due to not being written ahead of time there are inconsistencies between each game. Either way, the ME trilogy is overall a much better story than JE. It's not perfect by any means, but then what is? I would honestly be surprised if most people on BSN have even played JE. The game came out 11 years ago and it felt as if it was almost entirely unknown even when it was released.

 

I say the guy in the first trailer is actually Conrad, trying to spread the word of The Shepard to a new galaxy.

 

You're Ryder, sent by Shepard to eliminate him.

 

You can decide if that makes them the antagonist or not.

I know you're being entirely facetious, but that doesn't even make remote sense on its face. Especially if the ARK departs the galaxy before ME3 begins, that would mean Conrad is not on the ARK. Not to mention, how old do you think Conrad would be by then?

[straykat]

In your opinion. It certainly had issues and due to not being written ahead of time there are inconsistencies between each game. Either way, the ME trilogy is overall a much better story than JE. It's not perfect by any means, but then what is? I would honestly be surprised if most people on BSN have even played JE. The game came out 11 years ago and it felt as if it was almost entirely unknown even when it was released.

 

I know your being entirely facetious, but that doesn't even make remote sense on its face. Especially if the ARK departs the galaxy before ME3 begins, that would mean Conrad is not on the ARK. Not to mention, how old do you think Conrad would be by then?

 

No, Conrad has nothing to do with the Ark. He stole the original prototype. That's the transporter machine he's messing with in the trailer.

[Revan Reborn]

No, Conrad has nothing to do with the Ark. He stole the original prototype. That's the transporter machine he's messing with in the trailer.

I could only imagine the outrage and rioting if Ryder turned out to be Conrad and you were tasked with killing him. I have a feeling some folks would leave the ME franchise behind forever.