121 ответов в этой теме

[roselavellan]

Well i always using Solona Amell as import, so i always assume Meredith and Templars don't mind Hawke because they know she's The Hero of Ferelden cousin, it just 1 year after The Blight, surely Mage Warden is a superstar, but when everything just don't add up, especially the sentiment toward Mages still bitter after a Mage save the whole world, and that negative sentiment lead to a war between Mage and Templar...so what Solona Amell being build, crushed by DA2 story...there is no excuse, it just a rushed and not planned story, and a garbage...they even forgot to change Cullen line for Mage Hawke

 

Save import don't mean a thing, surely the Chantry will loosen up a bit because The Hero of the last Blight was a MAGE, and that Mage who found Andraste Tomb....why the world don't change a bit? Why Templar still treat Mages badly? Why policies don't change a bit? Why Cullen say that dialogue even after knowing his former lover killing The Archdemon and is The Hero of Ferelden The Blight Vanquisher?

 

Yeah, I keep hoping Thedas will relax their prejudice against mages. After all, in my canon, a mage saved them from the fifth blight, a mage saved Kirkwall from a lyrium-crazed Templar commander, and now a mage has saved Thedas from a Fade breach and an ancient Magister and his corrupted Red Templar army. So.... hmmm, I dunno, should be time for a change in attitudes, no?

 

It could be that Thedosian prejudices are so ingrained that it takes a long time for them to change. Or perhaps that young mage burning down your barn is a stronger influence on you mindset than a mage hundreds of miles away who stopped a Blight from getting anywhere near you.

 

You're right though, there is no excuse for having sloppy dialogue like that line from Cullen. Such a pity DA2 didn't have more development time.

[Monica21]

Yeah, I keep hoping Thedas will relax their prejudice against mages. After all, in my canon, a mage saved them from the fifth blight, a mage saved Kirkwall from a lyrium-crazed Templar commander, and now a mage has saved Thedas from a Fade breach and an ancient Magister and his corrupted Red Templar army. So.... hmmm, I dunno, should be time for a change in attitudes, no?

 

It could be that Thedosian prejudices are so ingrained that it takes a long time for them to change. Or perhaps that young mage burning down your barn is a stronger influence on you mindset than a mage hundreds of miles away who stopped a Blight from getting anywhere near you.

 

You're right though, there is no excuse for having sloppy dialogue like that line from Cullen. Such a pity DA2 didn't have more development time.

 

Sure, but a mage, who voluntarily became an abomination, blew up the Chantry. Just because your mage is always a hero doesn't mean that all mages have that same capacity. And in my game it's always a rogue who saves the world, so why should mages get treated differently because of your canon?

[roselavellan]

Sure, but a mage, who voluntarily became an abomination, blew up the Chantry. Just because your mage is always a hero doesn't mean that all mages have that same capacity. And in my game it's always a rogue who saves the world, so why should mages get treated differently because of your canon?

 

Well, perhaps attitudes will be slower to change in your Thedas

[Monica21]

Well, perhaps attitudes will be slower to change in your Thedas

Why should attitudes change at all? Have mages stopped being inherently dangerous?

[roselavellan]

Sure, power can be dangerous, and perhaps magical power is more complicated than some other forms. Doesn't mean you need to punish the mages for being born with this power. Power comes with a resultant burden of responsibility that needs to be properly schooled and trained, not reviled, and I think the DA series has shown that locking mages up and torturing them is not an effective solution.

 

Plus I think you can see in DAI that it's not just the mages who are dangerous, if you paid attention to the Haven conversations between the Chantry sisters, plus some other codices on the templars in the mage-templar war.

[Catilina]

Why should attitudes change at all? Have mages stopped being inherently dangerous?

Need to close them. All. And throw away the key. If any mages escapes, or just not happy with this security rules, or want to live a bit, must be killed or be performe lobotomy on them. Then they will not be dangerous. Or wait! They are still dangerous? So surprise...

[Jedi Comedian]

Why should attitudes change at all? Have mages stopped being inherently dangerous?

All I know is this: you can't cut someone's hands just because they can wield a sword.

If most people in Thedas think this injustice should continue, then we need more Mage Rights vigilantes other than Anders.

It's precisely The Chantry who's being dangerous.

[Monica21]

All I know is this: you can't cut someone's hands just because they can wield a sword.

If most people in Thedas think this injustice should continue, then we need more Mage Rights vigilantes other than Anders.

It's precisely The Chantry who's being dangerous.

 

Oh, that's just silly. I can't involuntarily wield a sword. If I could, then there should be some protection for people like me, who are at risk of randomly picking up swords and killing people with them.

 

The Chantry's purpose is to not only protect the mages themselves but everyone who lives in a world with magic. Whether the Chantry has taken that too far is a fair argument, but believing that Anders (who was possessed and no longer Anders) was on the right side of any kind of moral authority is dangerous and foolish. He wasn't a vigilante. He was a terrorist.

[GoldenGail3]

Sure, but a mage, who voluntarily became an abomination, blew up the Chantry. Just because your mage is always a hero doesn't mean that all mages have that same capacity. And in my game it's always a rogue who saves the world, so why should mages get treated differently because of your canon?

Well.. Mages mostly saved the world in my game (can't help it, it's my favorite class) but I agree with you on most of these facts.

[GoldenGail3]

Why should attitudes change at all? Have mages stopped being inherently dangerous?

No, unless they find a way to get the demons off there backs, lol.

[ThomasBlaine]

It also makes the Templar/Mage conflict a little less poignant. A mage sibling is bias enough, but Hawke actually being an apostate him/herself makes the choice of who to support a no-brainer. Openly declaring yourself on the side of the mages without being one demonstrates a higher level of agency than just going with your assigned team when the big game's about to start.

 

And unless Hawke is a S&B warrior, Aveline is the party's only designated tank. And she's both not much fun and supposed to be busy running the city guard.

 

The only tank being a part-timer just isn't defensible. Sword and board Hawkes ftw!

 

That also allows for a moment in Inquisition where Hawke, Loghain and the Inquisitor wreck **** in the Fade to show how much demon ass three excellent fighters can kick without a single Primal spell between them. Muggles rule.

[Xilizhra]

Oh, that's just silly. I can't involuntarily wield a sword. If I could, then there should be some protection for people like me, who are at risk of randomly picking up swords and killing people with them.

 

The Chantry's purpose is to not only protect the mages themselves but everyone who lives in a world with magic. Whether the Chantry has taken that too far is a fair argument, but believing that Anders (who was possessed and no longer Anders) was on the right side of any kind of moral authority is dangerous and foolish. He wasn't a vigilante. He was a terrorist.

Well, he was on a side less wrong than the templars.

 

Also, for me, my headcanon is that Varric forges various documents to make it seem that mage Hawke is an Enchanter from another Circle with permission to live with her family for a while, in a lie similar to the one he tells Karras. That lie eventually fades, but not before Hawke becomes Champion.

[Lulupab]

It very much depends your viewpoint. The best character to relate Anders to is probably "V" from V for Vendetta movie. They have very clear similarities between them.

 

 

This is a quote by V, but very much applies to Anders as well. Anders destroyed a building belonging to an organization that in part lobotomizes his people and massacres them (right of annulment) or at the very least condones these acts. These pretty much fall under war crime atrocities, and Anders' answer is also the same category, a war crime so it cannot be an act of terrorism too. But this is of course to someone who is completely being objective and seeing this matter as a 3rd parry. Of course chantry thinks its an act of terror, but its view is one sided.

 

Assuming one does not consider Anders a friend, then he is not a villain either, he is a very clear example of antihero. An antihero is often driven by impure, but sympathetic, motives. Vengeance is a big one. Everyone have wanted revenge at one point in their life. We might not agree with it, but we sympathize. A villain is driven by impure, but unsympathetic, motives—power for the sake of power, for example.

 

An antihero is often the underdog. Even when we don’t agree with the antihero, we find ourselves cheering for underdogs. It’s hard to cheer for a villain who has wealth and power and all he needs to defeat the hero/antihero. Anders is an underdog fighting a hopeless battle to free mages in a templar centered city.

 

All this relates to mage Hawke, as there are special dialogues in the game only available to mage Hawke, such as this one: (Hawke says this not Anders)

 

 

So back to the thread, Hawke is an expert in hiding, and if you separate gameplay aspects such as using magic in battles, Hawke knows exactly what to do to hide. Like Malcolm before him. At the very lest, in one of the paths Hawke can choose, his survival and stealth is essential to achieving their goal. Starting a mage rebellion, this goal is acknowledged by Hawke in DA:I if you make proper choices on DA Keep. Which I'm sure made many people happy, like myself.

[Catilina]

[...] So back to the thread, Hawke is an expert in hiding, and if you separate gameplay aspects such as using magic in battles, Hawke knows exactly what to do to hide. Like Malcolm before him. [...]

That is why my Hawke do not wear mage robes for example. Ofc, the staff is lame...

 

But the people do not know that Hawke is a mage. S/he must show that, for example to Feynriel's father.

Spoiler

 

And in the Act 1 Cullen do not KNOW, that Hawke is a mage. If your Hawke speak whith him, and after the talk you click on him again and again, finally he says: "I been hearing disturbing rumors about you, Hawke, I hope are not true"

 

Then: rumors exist, but no proof.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Here are a few choice quotes that I would like to present:-

 

This one concerns the Amell family

 

Lord Aristide Amell was one of the most wealthy and influential men in Kirkwall, known for the opulent balls he would host at his mansion. Following the arrest of Lord Viscount Perrin Threnhold by the city's Templar Order, it was universally agreed that Lord Amell would succeed Threnhold as Viscount. Even the Templars agreed that the Amells were worthy successors; however, the family was tainted by a number of scandals in the early Dragon Age and Marlowe Dumar was appointed as Viscount instead.

 

Revka Amell's firstborn child was found to be a mage and subsequently taken to the Circle, Revka weeping in the streets behind the templars.

 

This one concerns Perrin Threnhold, the Viscount that rule Kirkwall before Marlowe Dumar

 

Perrin used the chains extending from "the Twins" at Kirkwall's harbour to block the Waking sea passage and charge large fees from Orlesian ships. Orlais threatened invasion, and the Divine Beatrix III, as a friend to the Orlesian emperor, used the templars to pressure Perrin. In response, in 9:21 Dragon he attempted to expel the templars from Kirkwall. His army stormed the Gallows, and Knight-Commander Guylian was arrested and executed. Templars led by Meredith Stannard retaliated by storming the Viscount's Keep. Perrin was tried and imprisoned by Grand Cleric Elthina and died from poisoning two years later.

 

So do you expect me to believe that in a city state where Templars have so much power and influence, to the point of being able to drag out the children of one of the top noble families, the Amells for being mages and also having so much say in matters of city governance to the point of being able to lead a successful coup to unseat the previous viscount would just somehow let a Mage Hawke walk around scot-free ?

 

I can understand Meredith allowing Mage Hawke to walk around scot-free after Hawke had become the Champion of Kirkwall. Before that ? No, that's just absurd. If the Templars can drag Revka's kids around when the Amells were one of the top noble houses of Kirkwall, I think the Templars would have dragged Mage Hawke out of Hawke's Estate to the Gallows. Additionally, I don't think Viscount Marlowe Dumar could intervene or have a say in protecting Mage Hawke because as we can see, there is a historical precedent in Kirkwall whereby the Templar Order and the Grand Cleric, holding more power than the Viscount's office due to the relationship between the Templar Order, the Grand Cleric and the Divine in Orlais.

 

Add this to the fact you have people like Cullen, Meredith, Alrik, etc, Templars who are at best very strict and at worst anti-mage altogether, makes the notion of Mage Hawke not believable, especially considering the fact that Mage Hawke has to meet Cullen or go to the Gallows or work with other Templars before they become Champion of Kirkwall. No amount of bribery would have stopped Kirkwall's Templars, as we can see with the case of Bethany Hawke if we let her stay in Kirkwall while we went to the Deep Roads Expedition.

 

"But, but Bioware said there is a quest, a quest that's supposed to show that Mage Hawke is valid, and that they won't be pursued by Templars !"

 

Bioware says many things but I am relying on in game dialogue as well as Codex entries, not hypothetical scenarios about a possible quest that Bioware might have had or headcannons. Sure, the average everyday mundanes might have problem distinguishing if Hawke is a mage or not but I am sure trained Templars do not face that problem. Most importantly, no matter what you do, no matter what armor you wear, Mage Hawke always carries a staff with them. That's as good as broadcasting that Mage Hawke is a mage to the whole world since in Thedas, only Mages and members of the Dwarven nobility use staves (Dwarves use it for ceremonial purposes).

[Catilina]

Yes, the great staff in his/her back, in large enough nonsense (even if some of it is similar to a polearm – let's just say I do not think any city guards look kindly on a refugee, who wear on his/her back a bloody big weapon...).  Game mechanical bullshit.

 

But Hawke not throwing fireballs in the streets ...

 

In a quiet peacetime s/he may would be flashy, but in these times there is too much movement in the city, there are too many strangers.

 

If this were not enough, the mercenaries and smugglers also promise to cover Hawke.

 

There are some errors in the game, yes, but I do not consider it impossible that the Templars did not realize that Hawke is a mage.

 

But if you do not like it, you don't need to create a mage Hawke. There will be Bethany for you, who was caught and locked up its duly. 

[Sah291]

This thread is going around in circles.

Some people use their imagination more to explain things like the staff/weapon being more of a combat/game play convention, and thus not a literal story point. Other people don't.

But I have a question. Is there any evidence established in the series so far that Templars can sense mages? As in, magically? Or are they simply using methods like profiling?

Origins might have covered this but it's been a long time since I have played it.

[Catilina]

I also thought about it. We know, the mages can senses the magic (Hawke says to Idunna in the Blooming Rose), I do not think, the templars senses the magic. And templar Carver senses something, when Hawke activate the Key (Legacy), and ask Hawke, this is that feel the mages. (Then templars probably do not feel the magic under normal conditions.)

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Yes, the great staff in his/her back, in large enough nonsense (even if some of it is similar to a polearm – let's just say I do not think any city guards look kindly on a refugee, who wear on his/her back a bloody big weapon...).  Game mechanical bullshit.

 

But Hawke not throwing fireballs in the streets ...

 

In a quiet peacetime s/he may would be flashy, but in these times there is too much movement in the city, there are too many strangers.

 

If this were not enough, the mercenaries and smugglers also promise to cover Hawke.

 

There are some errors in the game, yes, but I do not consider it impossible that the Templars did not realize that Hawke is a mage.

 

But if you do not like it, you don't need to create a mage Hawke. There will be Bethany for you, who was caught and locked up its duly. 

 

This is Thedas, not the real world. Theodosians do not use polearms in combat, with the exception of mages.

 

Mage Hawke will be released from the services of the mercenaries and smugglers after one year when they have managed to gain entrance into the city. After that, Mage Hawke is on their own with little to no protection from Templars.

 

This thread is going around in circles.

Some people use their imagination more to explain things like the staff/weapon being more of a combat/game play convention, and thus not a literal story point. Other people don't.

But I have a question. Is there any evidence established in the series so far that Templars can sense mages? As in, magically? Or are they simply using methods like profiling?

Origins might have covered this but it's been a long time since I have played it.

 

Imagination does not negate the reality that the only group of Theodosians that use staves are mages and select few Dwarves. Anyone else simply does not use it. No amount of headcannon will make this untrue.

 

From what we know, Templars cannot sense mages if they do not have their blood (usually in a phylactery). On the other hand, Seekers are perfectly capable of sensing mages and even Templars since some of them can sense Lyrium in mage or a Templar and some can manipulate that.

[Sah291]

Yeah it makes sense for mages to sense it.

We also know spirits can.

For the record I think it's possible experienced or high ranking Templars might as well, even though they might never admit it. They attribute their abilities to the Maker (as Cassandra tells Solas in DAI), and they have a different purpose, so they would never call it "magic"

But Meredith moving statues with her mind can't have come from nowhere. The red lyrium must have dialed up her abilities to crazy levels (unless Corypheus was controlling her by proxy through Blight magic, the way he did Anders). The codex also states about force magic that it was developed there in Kirkwall. There's the obvious stuff like the use of phylacteries (simple blood magic).

(Yes I'm implying Templars use some magic too even though they don't call it that, and it may only be reserved for higher ranking members like Knight Commanders, or Seekers...but I don't know if it has ever been brought up in the game...I recall Amell implying to Alistair that he used magic, which he denied).

[Xilizhra]

So do you expect me to believe that in a city state where Templars have so much power and influence, to the point of being able to drag out the children of one of the top noble families, the Amells for being mages and also having so much say in matters of city governance to the point of being able to lead a successful coup to unseat the previous viscount would just somehow let a Mage Hawke walk around scot-free ?

 

I can understand Meredith allowing Mage Hawke to walk around scot-free after Hawke had become the Champion of Kirkwall. Before that ? No, that's just absurd. If the Templars can drag Revka's kids around when the Amells were one of the top noble houses of Kirkwall, I think the Templars would have dragged Mage Hawke out of Hawke's Estate to the Gallows. Additionally, I don't think Viscount Marlowe Dumar could intervene or have a say in protecting Mage Hawke because as we can see, there is a historical precedent in Kirkwall whereby the Templar Order and the Grand Cleric, holding more power than the Viscount's office due to the relationship between the Templar Order, the Grand Cleric and the Divine in Orlais.

 

Add this to the fact you have people like Cullen, Meredith, Alrik, etc, Templars who are at best very strict and at worst anti-mage altogether, makes the notion of Mage Hawke not believable, especially considering the fact that Mage Hawke has to meet Cullen or go to the Gallows or work with other Templars before they become Champion of Kirkwall. No amount of bribery would have stopped Kirkwall's Templars, as we can see with the case of Bethany Hawke if we let her stay in Kirkwall while we went to the Deep Roads Expedition.

 

"But, but Bioware said there is a quest, a quest that's supposed to show that Mage Hawke is valid, and that they won't be pursued by Templars !"

 

Bioware says many things but I am relying on in game dialogue as well as Codex entries, not hypothetical scenarios about a possible quest that Bioware might have had or headcannons. Sure, the average everyday mundanes might have problem distinguishing if Hawke is a mage or not but I am sure trained Templars do not face that problem. Most importantly, no matter what you do, no matter what armor you wear, Mage Hawke always carries a staff with them. That's as good as broadcasting that Mage Hawke is a mage to the whole world since in Thedas, only Mages and members of the Dwarven nobility use staves (Dwarves use it for ceremonial purposes).

Well, I did offer a possible explanation about Hawke masquerading as an enchanter from another Circle staying with family. Granted, an explanation like that should have been in the game, but it is possible for it to work.

 

And doubt all you like the inability for trained templars to not sense mages, but we see them fail in-game, specifically when Cullen doesn't catch on. DAO had Ser Bryant say they could, but DAO also said that templars didn't need lyrium for their powers, and we know what happened to that notion. And Hawke might always carry a staff in-game, yes; Hawke also never eats or pees in-game. Gameplay/story segregation and whatnot.

[Sah291]

Imagination does not negate the reality that the only group of Theodosians that use staves are mages and select few Dwarves. Anyone else simply does not use it. No amount of headcannon will make this untrue.

Ok, but there is no reason to assume they have a staff on them at all times. First of all, mages don't really need them (nor robes), and second of all, the weapon being attached to the character at all times is a video game convention, but not a terribly realistic one either. Some amount of suspension of disbelief or role play enhances the game.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Well, I did offer a possible explanation about Hawke masquerading as an enchanter from another Circle staying with family. Granted, an explanation like that should have been in the game, but it is possible for it to work.

 

And doubt all you like the inability for trained templars to not sense mages, but we see them fail in-game, specifically when Cullen doesn't catch on. DAO had Ser Bryant say they could, but DAO also said that templars didn't need lyrium for their powers, and we know what happened to that notion. And Hawke might always carry a staff in-game, yes; Hawke also never eats or pees in-game. Gameplay/story segregation and whatnot.

 

Act 1:- Why would an enchanter from another Circle stay in a disgusting hovel that is home to a known drunk and gambler with no document of any kind specifying which Circle they came from. I don't buy it.

 

Act 2:- An enchanter from another Circle that conveniently stays in the place that was once owned by the Amells with no document of any kind specifying which Circle they came from. Furthermore, this "enchanter from another Circle" ends up going to the Viscount's office quite frequently to mediate matters between Kirkwall and the Qunari. Yeah, I don't buy it.

 

Ok, but there is no reason to assume they have a staff on them at all times. First of all, mages don't really need them (nor robes), and second of all, the weapon being attached to the character at all times is a video game convention, but not a terribly realistic one either. Some amount of suspension of disbelief or role play enhances the game.

 

You can't expect me to suspend disbelief that a city that is run by very strict Templars like Kirkwall would allow a mage to run scot-free for so long. That's plot armor since Bethany Hawke gets dragged to the Circle if you do not bring her with you to the Deep Roads.

[vertigomez]

This is Thedas, not the real world. Theodosians do not use polearms in combat, with the exception of mages.
 
(...)

Imagination does not negate the reality that the only group of Theodosians that use staves are mages and select few Dwarves. Anyone else simply does not use it. No amount of headcannon will make this untrue.

This is silly. Are we to assume that flails don't exist in Thedas just because the devs haven't implemented them? How about maces? Daggers that aren't the size of short swords? You could DW axes in DAO - just because the option's not there anymore doesn't mean no one in Thedas is dual-wielding axes post-9:31.

I'm just saying, somebody in Thedas who is not a mage has probably picked up a big stick and whacked somebody with it at some point.

[Sah291]

You can't expect me to suspend disbelief that a city that is run by very strict Templars like Kirkwall would allow a mage to run scot-free for so long. That's plot armor since Bethany Hawke gets dragged to the Circle if you do not bring her with you to the Deep Roads.

Well no, I don't think they are allowing it. The same way police aren't allowing criminals to go free. But they don't necessarily manage to catch them all in the act. Even in a police state situation. I'm not saying Hawke's story would be typical...but if it were typical, it wouldn't be a story.

I do think mage Hawke would have probably been caught like Bethany if they stuck around much longer. But then mage Hawke might have killed the Templars and ran. Bethany wasn't that sort of person and kind of wanted to go to the Circle so she could stop running.

(I also think Hawke would very like have been arrested and executed eventually in act 3, if Anders hadn't blown up the chantry first).