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I love Mass Effect 3 and its philosophical underpinnings


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#101
Ieldra

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Shepard is pretty open in quite a lot of areas and left some stuff completely untouched. They dialed it down in ME 3 though.

And that's exactly the problem. Had Shepard started out as defined as in ME3, I would've adapted (or more likely, not bought the games), but as it was, I felt betrayed by what ME3 did to them.
 

Is the problem mostly that there are humans in the setting attracted to alien species or that the aliens are so humanlike?
In the first case, I have no problem believing that at all.

The problem is that nonhuman species have humanlike triggers for sexual attraction and have similar expressions of sexual dimorphism - case in question: asari, quarians, drell - especially combined with the fact that sex is completely irrelevant for the story. It's just there because people are obsessed with sex - as I said, for the worst possible reasons - *and* it damages the plausibility of the world. I find this combination particularly galling. Catering to people's immaturity.
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#102
angol fear

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I see the epilogue as deliberately flexible.  

 

Totally agree.

Anyway, the stargazer scene is a scene that is underestimated. Whenever people talk about the ending they talk about the catalyst and almost never talk about that scene. But the whole writing of Mass Effect is based on retroactive reading, the player has to think again with new elements. That scene is really important to understand the writing and why there is a meta level. the whole Shepard's story seems to be just a story told. And at the same time, because it's a story the narrator justified its form : he says that many of the details have been lost in time (like tears in rain?). So the details that will add nothing are justified, from a writing point of view, by the feeling the developers want the player to have (they deliberatly never wanted to go into details and it became explicit with the extended cut when the catalyst says that we don't have time.), it is justified by the character and the situation (Shepard has never been a character asking for details, he always has been a character asking for what is needed to know. The hard Science fiction aspect comes from the codex mostly, not from what Shepard knows or want to know about technology) and if we consider that the game is the old man's story, this one says that details have been lost.

 

And there is also something interesting : why Buzz Aldrin in this scene? I like to see it as the developers saying how they consider science-fiction and Mass Effect . The origin of science fiction isn't hard science fiction. Science fiction existed before XXth century. Long before the modern science fiction we had stories about travel through space to get to the moon. Science fiction comes from that fascination. This desire to go in space, that's the source of Mass Effect writing.

 

The epilogue is indeed flexible and gives us many clues.

 

 

In terms of literary criticism I have a lot of time for reader-response theory, which holds that the intentions of an author aren't as important as the reader's perceptions of them.  I'm sure that part of my ability to embrace that uncertainty is related to my perceptions of their intentions too.  

 

Though it does raise an interesting question.  If we both believe that "there is no predefined meaning in the world" (which yes, is one of major pillars of existentialism), but we also believe that a story will always hold signifiers dropped - intentionally or otherwise - by the author, is it possible to tell a story that engages with the idea of meaninglessness?  If it isn't, and if that's a major feature of our universe, that's...a strange situation to be in, given the function of stories in our society as things that help us discuss and form opinions on our world.  

 

For myself, that's why I found it so interesting that this was replicated in the mechanics.  In the way that the guidance system of paragon/renegade and confirmation of consequence were removed.  Because - at least to an extent - that forces the experience to exist within us, rather than in anything from the author. 

 

Many people on the forum misunderstand that an intention isn't an interpretation. The author's intention is what shapes the form, creates the structure. a text doesn't come from nowhere there is no creation ex nihilo. And at the same time, the author can give a reason to the structure but the act of writing is actually more complex than just the action of conscious writing. Writing is far more complex and the writing doesn't have all the answers. In the end, it's the text itself that is the most important. But in order to understand the text, it's sometime important to understand the intention. Actually just because the intention creates the form, an expert reader can see the intention through the form. For instance, sometime, some critics talk about the problem of development that be seen when you watch a movie. It's not speculation, expert readers can see that. At the same time, the reader can't intepret the way he wants the text. Some people talk about the death of the author but never read barthes, so they interpret it the way they want and what they think is wrong about that theory. The reader creates one meaning, that's true. But it doesn't that the reader can create all the meanings he wants. that's why lately, in some university research we prefer to talk about some kind of "multiple texts". the interpretation is valid as long as the text valids it. Going against the text is creating an invalid interpretation. And with this point of view the author's interpretation is just one part of the possibilities of the text.

But to understand why the author doesn't control the writing or why the reader can't really interpret the way he wants (basically if he could, every interpretation would be valid, and we all know that it's doesn't work this way), we would have to go into details of the theories of writing and reading.

(I just used your answer to open a parenthesis which is very important I think because what makes Mass Effect interesting is its writing and how, in the writing, there is an aesthetic purpose which makes it artistic)


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#103
UpUpAway

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And that's exactly the problem. Had Shepard started out as defined as in ME3, I would've adapted (or more likely, not bought the games), but as it was, I felt betrayed by what ME3 did to them.
 

 

Yes, I agree that part of the problem is that they achieved in ME and ME2 a degree of perceived flexibility and openness in Shepard that the public just had not experienced really before.  People were really looking forward to effectively "writing" the story completely in ME3; and when they took some of that back, the public was undeniably disappoints and some are even still angry about it today.  Was it a betrayal though?  I don't really think so.  Why?  In part, because I don't think the players were ever given as much flexibility as they perceived in ME1 and ME2. 

 

In ME1 for example, many of the choices presented in the dialogue wheel result in the same dialogue or effectively the same dialogue.  The main story still progress along a pretty consistent path regardless of Shepards "leanings" toward the paragon or renegade responses.  More often than not, whether blue or red, the charm/intimidate dialogue offers a way out of the dilemma.  That is, more often than not, the opponent will "stand down" regardless if Shepard charms them or intimidates them.  ME2 was much the same... that is, I could frequently choose dialogue on either side of the real that precipitated much the same result.  The only choice I had was whether I wanted my Shepard to say something in a little bit sassier way or not... and there were still a lot of slots on the dialogue wheel that produced essentially identical dialogue. Most of the choices that were really material to the game did not often really involve the dialogue selected... but rather involved whether I wanted to spend the hours playing the game that it would take to do all the side quests and make everyone loyal.  From that perspective, I really didn't notice a huge change in ME3.  There were fewer slots on the dialogue wheel visually and I wasn't making dialogue "selections" as frequently, but when the dialogue wheel opened up, the selections available didn't frequently result in Shepard uttering the exact same sentence as he had in ME1... so, I felt more like it was just a cleanup of the mechanics rather than a lessening of actual dialogue choice.

 

I also believe there was ample hints and symbolism even in ME1 that foreshadowed an "all roads lead to Rome" theme for the game... but it gets very tedious to go through them.  One particularly telling line for me, though, was the first conversation with Barla Von in ME1 (if investigated):

 

"No matter how long you play, no matter how many secrets you buy, you can never win."  Combined with "The longer you play, the more dangerous the game becomes.  I don't like danger, Commander.  I'll leave that up to you."  To me, those statements symbolized Bioware setting out the parameters of my role and their role in this game.  They were the Shadow Broker (behind the scenes, controlling all the information that would become available to me) and I was essentially a their mercy in a game I could never win. :)

 

In ME2, in the first conversation with the Illusive Man, Shepard can ask:  "Is this a volunteer job or am I being volunteered?" to which TIM replies:  "You always have a choice, Shepard.  If you don't find the evidence we're both looking for, we can part ways."  In that sentence there is an indication of choice being given... but it's a very limited one... stay or go... play or don't.

 

In ME3, in the first conversation, Shepard can indicate that he/she can defeat the Reapers, but TIM replies "Doubtful, the odds aren't in your favor."  Following that, we can get the following assertion: "You were a tool, an agent with a singular purpose... but like all the rest of the relics in this place, you're time is over... don't interfere with my plans, Shepard, I won't warn you again."

 

Now, I admit, I'm reading the symbolism into these conversations with TIM... but I don't think it's a huge stretch to imagine, after the first game, that the developer might have repeated a moment early on in the game where they would define the player vs. developer role.  All that's needed is to really imagine that, in these conversations, the Shadow Broker and TIM represent the mysterious, illusive "hidden" author of the game working behind the scenes, but effectively controlling all the information the player has access to and, by default, limiting the player's choices even though they've provided the player with an illusion of choice.


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#104
Dantriges

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Yeah the dialogue wheel often let you answer with more sass or more polite, but that´s the point. The plot was fixed in many parts of course but how Shepard expressed itself or what Shep thought about it was more open. It may not influence the plot but it´s important for the characterisation of Shep is an angry jerk, some naive saint or something in between. ME 3 intruded in these areas and sometimes qzute heavy handed, like Oh Shep don´t feel sad about losing Thessia. :rolleyes: And all these cutscenes where you behaved like a moron.


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#105
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Yeah the dialogue wheel often let you answer with more sass or more polite, but that´s the point. The plot was fixed in many parts of course but how Shepard expressed itself or what Shep thought about it was more open. It may not influence the plot but it´s important for the characterisation of Shep is an angry jerk, some naive saint or something in between. ME 3 intruded in these areas and sometimes qzute heavy handed, like Oh Shep don´t feel sad about losing Thessia. :rolleyes: And all these cutscenes where you behaved like a moron.

 

What you seem to be implying to me is that you just "liked" the Shepard they created in ME1 and ME2 (i.e. the boundaries THEY set in defining an "angry jerk" or a "naive saint" but not in ME3 where they directed you to their conclusion from the start... that "all roads lead to Romej." Another telling line right at that start of ME1 issued regardless of your choice in setting up your character's background was "That's the only kind of person who can protect the galaxy."  It was never an exploration into what sort of person would be most effective or least effecting in protecting the galaxy, but a foregone conclusion that any soldier of any background and any personality shoved into a circumstance of dire war would become "the only kind of person who can protect the galaxy."  Also note - protect, not necessarily save.

 

In ME3, this theme is also touched on in the conversations Shepard has with Javik.  I can't dig up the exact line right now, but the whole conversation posits that it's war that shapes the soldier.

 

I agree that a lot of people expected something different... but I am positing that the "intention" of the author didn't radically change from ME1 even in ME3... and since we are just the players of the game and not the authors of it, how much choice we got and how much our choices "mattered" was never something within our control.  The author intended to keep that control from the very start and, philosophically, can they really "take back" what they never actually gave away?


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#106
Ieldra

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You're overinterpreting that early stuff, UpUpAway95. ME1 was clearly marketed as a roleplaying game, and perhaps you didn't get that bit about control of the plot vs. control of the character. Control of the plot we never had, but we did have control over our characters' personalities to some degree, and we could characterize them through dialogue options, by solving problems in specific ways or by decisions that were kept in the sequels. So I maintain that shaping our character was always part of the games - just consider how different people's Shepards were envisioned, and how that never contradicted with anything in the games - and that ME3 betrayed the spirit of its predecessors by taking much of that away. 

 

Again, just in case you didn't get the difference: This was not about choices that matter for the plot - we got some of that, but not so much - but choices that matter for the character. I didn't want a stupid Shepard but ME3 didn't leave me a choice. In the earlier games, such lines were optional.


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#107
UpUpAway

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You're overinterpreting that early stuff, UpUpAway95. ME1 was clearly marketed as a roleplaying game, and perhaps you didn't get that bit about control of the plot vs. control of the character. Control of the plot we never had, but we did have control over our characters' personalities to some degree, and we could characterize them through dialogue options, by solving problems in specific ways or by decisions that were kept in the sequels. So I maintain that shaping our character was always part of the games - just consider how different people's Shepards were envisioned, and how that never contradicted with anything in the games - and that ME3 betrayed the spirit of its predecessors by taking much of that away. 

 

Again, just in case you didn't get the difference: This was not about choices that matter for the plot - we got some of that, but not so much - but choices that matter for the character. I didn't want a stupid Shepard but ME3 didn't leave me a choice. In the earlier games, such lines were optional.

 

You're cerrtainly welcome to dismiss what I'm putting forth as my "over-interpreting" - I really don't mind.  However, I believe that the author has inserted such references in the game with the full knowledge that it could be interpreted in the way that I am interpreting as well as in the way you (and a whole lot of other people) are interpreting it.  Writing occurs on many different levels - all at the same time... if I accept that the author's intention is (or should be) to offer characterization choice in a role playing a game through dialogue... why can't the writer be offering a choice in interpreting the game as well?  Why is my way of interpreting it arbitrarily the "wrong" way?



#108
Supreme Leech

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Shepurd was indoctrinated.

#109
Iakus

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In ME1 for example, many of the choices presented in the dialogue wheel result in the same dialogue or effectively the same dialogue.  The main story still progress along a pretty consistent path regardless of Shepards "leanings" toward the paragon or renegade responses.  More often than not, whether blue or red, the charm/intimidate dialogue offers a way out of the dilemma.  That is, more often than not, the opponent will "stand down" regardless if Shepard charms them or intimidates them.  ME2 was much the same... that is, I could frequently choose dialogue on either side of the real that precipitated much the same result.  The only choice I had was whether I wanted my Shepard to say something in a little bit sassier way or not... and there were still a lot of slots on the dialogue wheel that produced essentially identical dialogue. Most of the choices that were really material to the game did not often really involve the dialogue selected... but rather involved whether I wanted to spend the hours playing the game that it would take to do all the side quests and make everyone loyal.  From that perspective, I really didn't notice a huge change in ME3.  There were fewer slots on the dialogue wheel visually and I wasn't making dialogue "selections" as frequently, but when the dialogue wheel opened up, the selections available didn't frequently result in Shepard uttering the exact same sentence as he had in ME1... so, I felt more like it was just a cleanup of the mechanics rather than a lessening of actual dialogue choice.

 

Even if the same outcome results from Paragon or Renegade choices, the methods are often different.  That by itself gives players a degree of control over Shepard.  That helps in shaping the story.  When those methods become limited or outright eliminated, control, or the feeling of it, is taken away.  And people resent that.

 

 

 

I also believe there was ample hints and symbolism even in ME1 that foreshadowed an "all roads lead to Rome" theme for the game... but it gets very tedious to go through them.  One particularly telling line for me, though, was the first conversation with Barla Von in ME1 (if investigated):

"No matter how long you play, no matter how many secrets you buy, you can never win."  Combined with "The longer you play, the more dangerous the game becomes.  I don't like danger, Commander.  I'll leave that up to you."  To me, those statements symbolized Bioware setting out the parameters of my role and their role in this game.  They were the Shadow Broker (behind the scenes, controlling all the information that would become available to me) and I was essentially a their mercy in a game I could never win. :)

 

 So what do you make of "Is submission not preferable to extinction"?

 

 

 

In ME2, in the first conversation with the Illusive Man, Shepard can ask:  "Is this a volunteer job or am I being volunteered?" to which TIM replies:  "You always have a choice, Shepard.  If you don't find the evidence we're both looking for, we can part ways."  In that sentence there is an indication of choice being given... but it's a very limited one... stay or go... play or don't.
In ME3, in the first conversation, Shepard can indicate that he/she can defeat the Reapers, but TIM replies "Doubtful, the odds aren't in your favor."  Following that, we can get the following assertion: "You were a tool, an agent with a singular purpose... but like all the rest of the relics in this place, you're time is over... don't interfere with my plans, Shepard, I won't warn you again."
Now, I admit, I'm reading the symbolism into these conversations with TIM... but I don't think it's a huge stretch to imagine, after the first game, that the developer might have repeated a moment early on in the game where they would define the player vs. developer role.  All that's needed is to really imagine that, in these conversations, the Shadow Broker and TIM represent the mysterious, illusive "hidden" author of the game working behind the scenes, but effectively controlling all the information the player has access to and, by default, limiting the player's choices even though they've provided the player with an illusion of choice.

Funny, my favorite response to TIM in ME2 is 

 

I'm sorry,  I'm having trouble hearing you- I'm getting a lot of bullsh*t on this line.

 

Must say something about me  :D



#110
UpUpAway

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Even if the same outcome results from Paragon or Renegade choices, the methods are often different.  That by itself gives players a degree of control over Shepard.  That helps in shaping the story.  When those methods become limited or outright eliminated, control, or the feeling of it, is taken away.  And people resent that.

 

 

 So what do you make of "Is submission not preferable to extinction"?

 

Funny, my favorite response to TIM in ME2 is 

 

I'm sorry,  I'm having trouble hearing you- I'm getting a lot of bullsh*t on this line.

 

Must say something about me  :D

 

Last part first - The dialogue with TIM I'm referfing to occurs near the beginning of each game; and the line you're citing is near the end... and it only says anything about you really if you tell me it does.  I've selected it on some playthroughs and not on others.  Does that necessarily say something about me personally?  You still might interpret it to say something about me... you might be right and you might be wrong... not arbitrarily wrong.

 

"Is submission not preferable to extinction?"  Are you asking how I interpret that line within a game writing context or how I feel about it personally?  Within a game writing context... it's a fair question to ask.  They also have the right to answer it with their own slant on things or not to.  It does have a philosophical underpinning that, within the game, is broached from a few different angles.  For example, Zaeed in ME2 indicates:  "Doesn't matter who you are - you got a gun in your face, chances are good you'll do what the other man says. Only two types don't buckle at that point: trained killers and psychopaths. Lot of people can't tell the difference."

 

If you're asking how I feel about it personally...  I don't think it matters in the context of this discussion.

 

Now for the first part... you've answered for me by using the term "degree of control."  Bioware did give the player a "degree of control" but the dispute seems to center on just how much less control Bioware gave the player in ME3.  What I'm saying is that a lot of ME1 and ME2 produced a greater illusion of control of Shepard's character but not necessarily a greater degree of control over everything.  You can of course continue to disagree with my interpretations (or over-interpretations) of the dialogue and other names, symbols, and imagery present within the game itself.  I really don't mind.


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#111
Dantriges

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What you seem to be implying to me is that you just "liked" the Shepard they created in ME1 and ME2 (i.e. the boundaries THEY set in defining an "angry jerk" or a "naive saint" but not in ME3 where they directed you to their conclusion from the start... that "all roads lead to Romej."

 
I am aware that they set the boundaries, it´s impossible to not have a limited choice in a computer RPG. But it´s a question of how wide these boundaries are.

 

I agree that a lot of people expected something different... but I am positing that the "intention" of the author didn't radically change from ME1 even in ME3... and since we are just the players of the game and not the authors of it, how much choice we got and how much our choices "mattered" was never something within our control.  The author intended to keep that control from the very start and, philosophically, can they really "take back" what they never actually gave away?

Ofc the intentions of the author shifted going from ME 1 to ME 3, the whole team and leads changed after all. :huh: Even if the follow up writers want to keep as close as possible, there are differences. 

And yeah sure, BW always had total control about how much choice they gave you and how much they let you define Shepard. But the thing is, that they tightened the leash in ME 3 and it was quite obvious in the area "illusion of control of Shepard´s character." Their control turned up in areas they previously set aside for you to give input and meddled a lot more in these areas. And often their stuff was pretty crappy, too. If you want to meddle, at least give something in return which doesn´t feel completely moronic.

Ofc they have the ability to exercise more control there and limit choices but just because they could, doesn´t mean they should.


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#112
UpUpAway

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I am aware that they set the boundaries, it´s impossible to not have a limited choice in a computer RPG. But it´s a question of how wide these boundaries are.

 

Ofc the intentions of the author shifted going from ME 1 to ME 3, the whole team and leads changed after all. :huh: Even if the follow up writers want to keep as close as possible, there are differences. 

And yeah sure, BW always had total control about how much choice they gave you and how much they let you define Shepard. But the thing is, that they tightened the leash in ME 3 and it was quite obvious in the area "illusion of control of Shepard´s character." Their control turned up in areas they previously set aside for you to give input and meddled a lot more in these areas. And often their stuff was pretty crappy, too. If you want to meddle, at least give something in return which doesn´t feel completely moronic.

Ofc they have the ability to exercise more control there and limit choices but just because they could, doesn´t mean they should.

 

My perceptions of the dialogue within the game are that the intentions of the authors did not shift as drastically as people whine about despite there being a change in staff (and I've provided some of that dialogue that leads me to believe that).  That's all I'm obligated to do here to introduce my POV (which is equally valid to yours).  Furthermore, as you now admit, "it's impossible to not have a limited choice in a computer RPG."  So, it follows that I believe the writers have a right to limit choice in any manner they see fit.  I don't deny that you and many others didn't and don't like it... but, realistically, is that ever going to change a thing... We are, after all, 4 years after those endings were written.


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#113
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My perceptions of the dialogue within the game are that the intentions of the authors did not shift as drastically as people whine about despite there being a change in staff (and I've provided some of that dialogue that leads me to believe that).  That's all I'm obligated to do here to introduce my POV (which is equally valid to yours).  Furthermore, as you now admit, "it's impossible to not have a limited choice in a computer RPG."  So, it follows that I believe the writers have a right to limit choice in any manner they see fit.  I don't deny that you and many others didn't and don't like it... but, realistically, is that ever going to change a thing... We are, after all, 4 years after those endings were written.

 

Nice of you to share it. Yeah your PoV is as valid as mine and what kind of argument is your last sentence? Yeah you don´t like it but the writers won´t change it? No one her was clamoring for a change to the game. All I did was talking about my PoV, which is as valid as yours. Thanks.



#114
UpUpAway

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Nice of you to share it. Yeah your PoV is as valid as mine and what kind of argument is your last sentence? Yeah you don´t like it but the writers won´t change it, so shut up? No one her was clamoring for a change to the game. All I did was talking about my PoV, which is as valid as yours. Thanks.

 

Oh, please do continue telling me in one breath to "shut up" and another that you think my POV is as valid as yours.  I've not been rude to you in any way, so don't try to instigate a "fight" by being rude to me.



#115
Dantriges

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I meant that your last sentence sounded like you meant it like that to me. Edited it



#116
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Yes, fantastic point on the issue of oral traditions.  Part of what fascinates me about the ending is the way that all three endings are functionally identical (you go up to a platform above the sky and die choosing how you will end, and restart the world) but symbolically diverse.  How you stop them, why you stop them, how you felt, that's what matters, that's what makes the story unique.

 
For a bit of a different reading on this particular point from someone who else loved the endings, here's Film Critic Hulk's thoughts on the formal presentation of the endings looking the same:
 

the original ending of mass effect 3 is beautiful, stunning and poetic. after a lifetime of war and fury, shepard comes face to face with the catalyst (represented by the form of a child, much like the one shepard had been dreaming of all game) and you have a long, in-depth conversation about the nature of cycles. this is rather apt, as all three games have been about the nature of cycles from the very beginning, whether they take the forms of violence, revenge, love, creation or death. it was always about cycles and the ways we break them, continue them or harmonize them. and thus, in this climactic moment, it is rather appropriate that you are given three distinct philosophical options on how to deal with this ouroborotical cycle. and despite small differences, all three lead to very similar endings.

which is the exact point.

all three paths lead to the same symbolic understanding of the purpose of death and re-birth. it is the only core truth of fatalism. for one path there is violence which leads to the mass extinction of synthetics (robots), devastation and collateral losses in the name of victory. then there is the path of sacrifice which ends in harmony and mass corporation with continued threat of unrest hanging over it. and for the last path, hulk, ever the symbiotic advocate, first chose the synthesis ending where both factions unite in a mixed synthetic-organic re-birth (and wouldn't you know it, but the color was green). the imagery of edi and joker standing there in the new eden is utterly perfect. hulk didn't need any more closure because the symbolic imagery of everything made such sense. and while the normandy landing on this eden certainly makes the most logical sense of the synthesis ending, the eden imagery works brilliantly for the other two as well. one with the notion of violence setting us back to technological-zero and starting us over in the new cycle's uncorrupted eden. and then again with the cooperation path where the new eden represents a land of perfect harmony. but it is important to note that all three are using the same imagery to make a very, very specific statement about how human nature cycle-solutions bring us to the same place. all go to the new myth focal point. and the only difference is our intentions and those intentions mean everything because they reflect our very humanity and purpose.


Original article.Fair warning that Hulk's gimmick is to write his articles in all caps; I used JS to force it into lower for easier readability.


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#117
Ieldra

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@CronoDragoon:

I read Hulk's article a while ago and found it rather pretentious, and his condescension towards those who didn't like the ending didn't exactly help. "The purpose of life and death", really? Now does he claim to know things unknown by the other seven billion people on Earth? Also, perhaps he overlooked that fatalism isn't exactly the message of the story that came before the ending? Or that this was about the breaking of a cycle rather than affirming one?

 

It is exactly that the symbolism affirmed the limitations of the human condition, and that the Garden Eden symbolism hinted at a state of technological innocence, that I hated it for. IMO such limitations exist to be overcome - also a theme in the story - and the only true state of innocence is one where you've lost - or not yet regained - the ability to reason, and as such thoroughly undesirable. The "uncorrupted new Eden" implied that the old system was too corrupt to be allowed to continue, and since it's your whole civilization that was destroyed in the ending, this applied not (just) to the Reapers and their cycle but to the whole galactic civilization as such. I find it plainly impossible to see anything positive and beautiful in such a message. As for Joker and EDI, the post-Synthesis scene implied co-existence, but the (original) ending exposition implied unification, and most people find the former desirable but the latter not so much. So no, it didn't fit brilliantly at all. I could go on like this for quite a while...

 

I should be mentioned that as opposed to Hulk (and others), I always thought the endings lead to very different futures and that our choice made a very big difference, even after the original endings. That they weren't shown may or may not have been deliberate from an artistic viewpoint (rather than deliberate from an economic viewpoint in that they didn't want to spend the resources to make an epilogue), but if it was, it was much more likely to be because (1) that was a way to show that because of Shepard died, you could never know the future you had created or (2) they wanted the outcome to be highly interpretable.  

 

I don't agree with everything beccatoria said about the ending, but her viewpoint is consistent and it makes sense. I can't say the same about Hulk's.     


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#118
Iakus

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Last part first - The dialogue with TIM I'm referfing to occurs near the beginning of each game; and the line you're citing is near the end... and it only says anything about you really if you tell me it does.  I've selected it on some playthroughs and not on others.  Does that necessarily say something about me personally?  You still might interpret it to say something about me... you might be right and you might be wrong... not arbitrarily wrong.

 

Ah, but the dialogue I'm referring to occurs when you defy what The Illusive Man say, disobey him, disrespect him, and declare Shepard is going to fight the Reapers his/her own way.  If TIM's declarations are somehow symbolic or foreshadowing of the ultimate fate of the series, Sgepard can, just as symbolically, reject them, 

 

 

 

"Is submission not preferable to extinction?"  Are you asking how I interpret that line within a game writing context or how I feel about it personally?  Within a game writing context... it's a fair question to ask.  They also have the right to answer it with their own slant on things or not to.  It does have a philosophical underpinning that, within the game, is broached from a few different angles.  For example, Zaeed in ME2 indicates:  "Doesn't matter who you are - you got a gun in your face, chances are good you'll do what the other man says. Only two types don't buckle at that point: trained killers and psychopaths. Lot of people can't tell the difference."

If you're asking how I feel about it personally...  I don't think it matters in the context of this discussion.

I'm asking from an interpretive perspective.  If Barla Von is telling us, obliquely, that there is no way to "win" the coming war against the Reapers, what might others be saying?

 

 

Now for the first part... you've answered for me by using the term "degree of control."  Bioware did give the player a "degree of control" but the dispute seems to center on just how much less control Bioware gave the player in ME3.  What I'm saying is that a lot of ME1 and ME2 produced a greater illusion of control of Shepard's character but not necessarily a greater degree of control over everything.  You can of course continue to disagree with my interpretations (or over-interpretations) of the dialogue and other names, symbols, and imagery present within the game itself.  I really don't mind.

Even if you believe that control is only an illusion, would you not agree that in ME3, that illusion is considerably more transparent?



#119
Iakus

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Oh, please do continue telling me in one breath to "shut up" and another that you think my POV is as valid as yours.  I've not been rude to you in any way, so don't try to instigate a "fight" by being rude to me.

Word of advice:  If you call people whiners, people will take umbrage at what you say.


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#120
UpUpAway

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Ah, but the dialogue I'm referring to occurs when you defy what The Illusive Man say, disobey him, disrespect him, and declare Shepard is going to fight the Reapers his/her own way.  If TIM's declarations are somehow symbolic or foreshadowing of the ultimate fate of the series, Sgepard can, just as symbolically, reject them, 

 

I'm asking from an interpretive perspective.  If Barla Von is telling us, obliquely, that there is no way to "win" the coming war against the Reapers, what might others be saying?

 

Even if you believe that control is only an illusion, would you not agree that in ME3, that illusion is considerably more transparent?

 

I believe I made it clear that the dialogue I was citing was "if selected" and that it was possible to interpret it in different ways.  I also believe I did indicate that the "illusion" wasn't as pronounced in ME3... and that is why, inideed, you and others are upset.  I have also said directly to you that you can continue to be upset if you so choose.  I do not like being "attacked" by "all" of you whenever I express my feeling of "not being upset" and no matter how or how often I say you can continue to be upset at Bioware, but I'm am not upset - you all seem to "take umbrage." and I do think that carrying on a "grudge" against a gaming company for 4 years is both a little excessive and potentially unhealthy... for you... but you are certainly entitled to persist with it if you want.

 

IMO, this whole response of yours to me is pointless beyond just attacking my feelings and try, yet again, to put me personally on the defensive.  It does not seem to further the academic discussion in any way.  So, please... go try to poke another bear... this one isn't biting.


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#121
Ieldra

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But I suppose the thing to note here is that I don't feel that either Control or Synthesis will necessarily lead to technological dark ages. Control - in the original ending - was the only one where the animation cut off before the relay exploded, which, along with the Citadel not exploding, implied to me that the relay network was damaged, not destroyed. Synthesis always felt as though the loss of the relay network would be counterbalanced by the unimaginable personal leaps in evolution/tech advancement in a way I struggle to think of as a "dark age" even if there's more difficulty in long-haul interstellar travel.

I recall after the original ending, things were confusing. There was no dark age implied in Control, no, but Synthesis painted a different picture. My personal interpretation was almost exactly like yours right from the start - that the potential of new technology and self-directed evolution would more than make up for the loss of the relays. However, I also felt that was beyond mere interpretation and more along the lines of plausible headcanon, since the exposition didn't mention such possibilities in a single word. I don't know if you played the OE, but the advancement-related stuff was added with the Extended Cut, and the term "new ascension" was from the leaked game script but it was cut for the published game. There were more hints like that in the leaked script, which lead to the impression, if you knew the leaked script, that everything related to advancement was carefully purged before the game was published, leaving the nonsensical idea of "a new DNA" that would unify synthetics and organics on a biochemical level. Not because I consider that impossible, but because a synthetic based on a DNA-analogue would be functionally indistinguishable from an organic, with all the problems supposedly resolved by Synthesis reappearing.

It's quite likely that my personal history of reception - first the leaked script, then the OE, then the EC, influences how I continue to think and feel about the endings. I was ready to embrace the EC when it came out, and in some way I did, but while it anchored radical advancement and self-directed evolution in the epilogue, unfortunately it didn't do away with the biological nonsense and it was still not possible to rationalize the implementation of Synthesis in in-world logic. It was a religious metaphor *alone*.
 

Yes, absolutely. People often talk about how Synthesis is immoral because you're forcing a change on nearly every sentient being. But any choice Shepard makes at that point - including nothing - will affect every living being. Synthesis, like transhumanism in the real world, is both fascinating and frightening, and I say that as something of a transhumanist myself. In a sense my fascination with it is from an evolutionary perspective: I think it's inevitable. Our evolutionary niche is tool-building. Using our brains to create technology to compensate for our physical limitations is what we, as a species, have evolved to do. Logically, the ultimate extension of that is us eventually creating a machine that no longer needs us and/or is capable of self-improvement, or incorporating technology into our physical existence on an increasingly radical basis. The idea of being able to consciously direct our evolution rather than adapting generationally, without conscious planning, to our environment, is incredible, but also terrifying when we consider how poor our judgement has sometimes been, particularly with regards to medical ethics and economic justice when it comes to access to healthcare and technology. But either eventuality is a paradigmatic shift that will change our civilisation as we know it.

I had mentioned that as a reply to those who claimed that Synthesis was a cloudcuckoolander's "paradise" ending. Whoever has ever read transhumanist SF can't fail to notice that the possibilities are as much terrifying as promising. But in order to accept that, you had to accept that Synthesis was designed for those themes in the first place, and even while I wanted to believe that, I had my doubts until the EC came out, exactly because of those purged references I mentioned above.

I also agree that this kind of advancement is inevitable, should we survive, as a species, the way there. It was another idea I brought up against the detractors' claims that ME3's Synthesis wasn't necessary because we could get there on our own: yes, we could start on that way, but would we survive the pitfalls along the way? The idea was that the synthetic/organic conflict would claim us as victims before we could advance enough to resolve it on our own. You see, I actually had a lot of positive imagery for the endings and I still have. I've always said I was fine with the final choice and most of its implications, only the implementation carried themes nullifying the thematic direction of the concept that was still recognizeable under all the stupidity.
 

I definitely read the final scene differently to you. I mean it's deliberately vague - it's hard to know whether the old man is treating space like a fairytale because he's educating a young kid, and wants to impress on him the wonders and scope of space, or if it's because space has become something of a fairytale. I suspect that's because it has to fit with all three endings. You have to be able to believe that that's a Grandpa from an ending where the Reapers were destroyed and the galaxy plunged into a technological dark age. You also have to be able to believe it's part-synthetic Grandpa who might be sharing illustrations of Shepard's story from historical documents wirelessly with his grandson via the nanotechnology in their bodies.

But from my perspective, the old guy knows that there are billions of stars, orbited by planets, housing life. This is a society at least as educationally advanced as 20th century Earth, possibly much more so. If they wanted to hammer home that space travel was more or less lost, then his response to "when will I get to see the stars," would perhaps have been, "one day, I hope," not "one day, my sweet".

It's certainly possible to interpret it that way, though 20the century Earth wouldn't be enough IMO. Meanwhile, my impression was carried mostly by the absolute lack of anything technological in both of the post-Event scenes, suggesting what I called "technological innocence". All the technological items we see are from the soon-to-be-destroyed old world, and either get destroyed or rendered nonfunctional (the Normandy didn't take off again until after the EC).
 

I find your reaction to synthesis and its religious implications understandable, even though I don't entirely agree. I say entirely because one of the biggest reasons I dislike the Extended Cut was the way it attempted to make synthesis seem like a less ethically complex decision. I mean, I, personally, found it joyful and exhilarating but I'm aware - and my Shepard was aware - that she was making a huge determination with regards to the fate of, well, everyone, essentially without their consent. But the game didn't baby us and hold our hands when we held the fate of the Krogan or the Geth or the Quarians, when we had to make unilateral decisions about their fate, and it didn't need to here either.

I think you have to see the EC Synthesis in the context of people's reaction to the OE Synthesis at the time. I don't think I've ever seen such hate for anything else on the forums. many people were absolutely determined to see it in the worst possible way, to the point that those like me, equally determined to take something positive away from the story, were forced into a siege mentality. I certainly felt like I was under siege for a while with my two Synthesis threads, and I was relieved that the EC made it abundantly clear that we didn't all become all Reaper minions. I think EC Synthesis is ambivalent enough with its very visible theme of "joining with the Other", and the Other aspect being painted in eerie green light, particularly with the Ex-Reapers still around.

I know Shepard's sacrifice was intended to be seen in a positive way, but I'm about as non-religious as it's possible to be and the mystic saviour imagery did more to offend my genre sensibilities. Religion certainly has its place in SF as a very common phenomenen in human societies, but implying there's a literal metaphysical truth in the idea of salvation through sacrifice, that the act of sacrifice itself, rather than that which made it necessary, carried salvation, no, I don't think that idea, shown as more or less true, belongs in the genre. And yes, it did come across that way, exactly because there was no connection between the act and its outcome that could be rationalized through in-world logic. More than any other ending, implementing Synthesis - whether by accident or intention - was painted as a metaphysical act, and the nonsense in the exposition contributed to that impression. So when I composed my image of the post-Synthesis future, I had to to a lot of mental acrocbatics around that, and in fact I rarely wrote anything about how I thought Synthesis actually worked.
 

Synthesis went from being an option which was presented without moral comment, except for the moral questions raised within Shepard herself (or her player), in the original version to being... I don't know. Some confused mess where the Catalyst tries to explain how it didn't work before because people "weren't ready" but "you" are ready now? Like, does that mean Shepard is ready? That the vast and diverse societies in the galaxy are all, magically, somehow ready because...that sounds nicer? Some hearts-and-rainbows feel-good dodge? It felt like the Catalyst might as well have pulled out a giant "NOT RAPE!" sign in response to all the offensively inappropriate comparisons* that were being made by the fandom at the time. For me that's what shifted it into the realms of...not exactly messianic weirdness, but certainly something adjacent. "Oh but it's different for you because you're just so special and awesome everyone'll be fine with it!" It was...juvenile.

I don't really disagree with that - see my comments about the context of the EC above. I would like to add, however, that there was a reason why people reacted like they did at the time: the Reapers claimed the themes of radical advancement and self-directed evolution for themselves, and it was implied that they were still around, if not controlled by the Catalyst any more because that was destroyed. So though it was, in my opinion, perfectly clear that Synthesis wasn't intended to be seen in such negative light, people had a point when they said it came across to them that way nonetheless. In addition, transhumanism had been a positive theme in ME1, between the common genetic engineering of soldiers and the explicit recognition of biotics relating to transhumanism, and some of that remained in ME2, but things changed, and to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that either Casey Hudson or Mac Walters hated the idea. I don't know if you know that a cut Codex entry explicitly discussed the idea of a technological singularity. That, too, was cut from the published game, as well as an explanation of the Reaperization process in terms of destructive uploading which was replaced by something more mystical that reeked of vitalism in ME2's ending. All that contributed to the impression that thematic references to transhumanism had been carefully purged, to be either dropped completely or to be replaced with nonsense. In fact, I'm reasonably sure that's exactly what happened. There were too many hammers driving the same nail home.

***I had to remove your statements about BSG because the forum didn't allow me as many quotes. Consider them quoted*** 

While indeed, I feel ME3 made a similar mistake as BSG. It's one thing to use religious imagery, but quite another to assert a metaphysical dimension of sacrifice, which ME3 did not just with Shepard but also with Legion.
 

But in the same way that we can say that political differences are responsible for most wars, it's not the concept of a political opinion that is the issue, if only because we can't avoid having those. It's how we react to and deal with those differences that matters.

With my evolutionary take on transhumanism and our relationship to technology because we are tool-builders, I'd argue the same applies here. We can't avoid the prevalence of technology in our lives, and it probably shouldn't be "death and taxes" it should be "death and technology". Ever since we developed opposable thumbs, this is the basket in which we've placed all of our eggs. Still, the end result is either our obsolescence or changing ourselves radically. That creates inherent conflict. The prevalence of these themes underscored, to me, that this was the central question of the game, but not what the correct reaction was.

I felt the options we had in addressing the conflict were adequately wide-ranging not to impose moral judgement. Destroy favours returning to our organic roots. Synthesis favours embracing our synthetic future. Control provides a policing mechanism powerful enough to maintain the status quo. Thesis, synthesis, antithesis.

Oh, don't misunderstand me. When I say the story of the ME trilogy was implicitly traditionalist, I *exclude* the endings. I'm not sure if I said it here, but when I claim the endings didn't fit the story, I often add that I'd have liked a different story that supported the concepts of the endings more, rather than different endings. Because you know, the story that cames before, that *does* have the moral commentary the endings avoided. The genophage is implied to be evil and aspects of the lore are ignored to make it appear more so, Miranda's genetic engineering isn't thematically disassociated from the supremacist ambitions of her father, Okeer is painted as an assh*ole. Also, ME3 has some balancing elements like the geth/quarian symbiosis (which creates its own problems), but the main problem remains: the narratively dominant representatives of the idea "join with technology" remain the Reapers.
 

I never understood the comparison of Saren's goals or the Reapers' methods with Synthesis because it seems to me self-evident that there's a huge gap between turning someone into a techno-zombie without free will, and giving someone a nanotech upgrade in a way that doesn't seem to affect their personality or autonomy. To put it another way, I feel it's like saying an operation to remove an appendix before it bursts is the same as disembowling someone. Both involve cutting up your midsection and pulling out some of your guts, but the purpose and context could not be more different.

I think the comparison is made because in both cases it's forced. I'm more consequentialist than most, so my primary concern is the outcome, but in my experience most people are different. And consider: even if you're open to the idea of joining with technology, you'll certainly think long about who you're going to trust with, say, putting chips into your brain. We've spoken of the implications of Synthesis as being both joyful and terrifying, and the line is thin: trust the wrong people, and you'll end up as a mind-controlled slave. And the Catalyst did many things, but inspiring trust is not one of them.

So, in a way I understand why people feel that way. What I don't understand is why they continue to think along the same lines once they've had time to reflect on things. On reflection, it's very clear that the outcome is mostly good.
 

The Eden imagery I do find very interesting and I can see why it could play poorly. But in the Synthesis ending, particularly, I feel that there's something very interesting going on in its juxtaposition with the very start of the game. Eden Prime presents paradise doomed by technological "knowledge" in the form of the beacon. Here technology (knowledge) is external and malignant. Synthesis ends with a synthetic and a (now predominantly) organic couple positioned as Adam and Eve, in a new world where technology (knowledge) is literally painted across your skin; technology has been internalised and is not portrayed as a corrupting influence. To me, at least, the visual message is that in breaking the cycle, we restart it in a healthier place. This Eden does not demand the separation of technology and knowledge from innocence. It is no longer a polluting force.

As I see it, innocence is a state of mind we left behind when we started to reason and realized that neither we nor the world are perfect. As such, I don't see it as a desirable state. I don't suppose you know the fantasy trilogy "The Winter of the World" by Michael Scott Rohan? Therein, one elder power attempts to bring humanity back to a state of innocence, and the result is - not surprisingly to me - that those people affected by the scheme lost the ability to reason and to affect their environment. For me, technology and innocence can't be reconciled, not because technology is polluting, but because creating it requires reflection and a clear recognition of the imperfection of everything. That's why I didn't like the Garden Eden imagery.
 

In terms of literary criticism I have a lot of time for reader-response theory, which holds that the intentions of an author aren't as important as the reader's perceptions of them. I'm sure that part of my ability to embrace that uncertainty is related to my perceptions of their intentions too.

Though it does raise an interesting question. If we both believe that "there is no predefined meaning in the world" (which yes, is one of major pillars of existentialism), but we also believe that a story will always hold signifiers dropped - intentionally or otherwise - by the author, is it possible to tell a story that engages with the idea of meaninglessness? If it isn't, and if that's a major feature of our universe, that's...a strange situation to be in, given the function of stories in our society as things that help us discuss and form opinions on our world.

LOL, that's an interesting question. Hmm....I don't know the answer, but I suppose a story could show widely varying themes and consider widely varying message, which all come to mean nothing in the end. It would require some very careful writing, if it can be done at all. However, excuse me if I'd rather not experience such a story as its protagonist in a game. The meanings I give my actions, whether in stories or otherwise, may be irrelevant in the end, but they're nonetheless important to me. That it's created rather than found doesn't necessarily make an idea less powerful. It just serves to remind me that I have no claim to others' minds.

 

I don't think I have anything to add here that I haven't already covered in my monster reply, but I did want to thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed and thoughtful response. Your feelings on the way synthesis was presented as superficially progressive, but subtextually regressive, for instance, were particularly interesting.

Thank you as well. It is rare that we can speak of the ME trilogy that way and discuss these philosophical issues in depth. If anything, ME3 spawned these debates, and that makes it apparent that I did take away something good from it after all ;)
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#122
angol fear

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I agree that a lot of people expected something different... but I am positing that the "intention" of the author didn't radically change from ME1 even in ME3... and since we are just the players of the game and not the authors of it, how much choice we got and how much our choices "mattered" was never something within our control.  The author intended to keep that control from the very start and, philosophically, can they really "take back" what they never actually gave away?

 

In the beginning of Mass Effect 1 there is something i like : (at 27 min)

 

 

Manuel, "genius and madness", so two way to consider what he says.

 

"Is it madness to see the future? to see the destruction rushing toward us? To understand there is no escape?..."

"you cannot silence the truth! My voice must be heard"

 

Shepard can punch him, it doesn't change the story. And what he says gives us some clues.

In the very beginning of Mass Effect 1 we have the "fate" theme that is here. Fate, determinism, choices all of these things are related.

Shepard can consider that he was mad, but what he said was actually right. Or he can consider that maybe he is right, and he is right. In the end, there was no real freedom.


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#123
Ieldra

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In the beginning of Mass Effect 1 there is something i like : (at 27 min)
 

 
Manuel, "genius and madness", so two way to consider what he says.
 
"Is it madness to see the future? to see the destruction rushing toward us? To understand there is no escape?..."
"you cannot silence the truth! My voice must be heard"
 
Shepard can punch him, it doesn't change the story. And what he says gives us some clues.
In the very beginning of Mass Effect 1 we have the "fate" theme that is here. Fate, determinism, choices all of these things are related.
Shepard can consider that he was mad, but what he said was actually right. Or he can consider that maybe he is right, and he is right. In the end, there was no real freedom.

Indeed, it didn't change the story. But it helped define the character. You could punch Manuel or not, but you couldn't avoid saying "The Citadel? The fight's here" in ME3's prologue, a line at least equally as character-defining. So I maintain that the ability to make specific character-defining choices - in this case, the ability to not show Shepard as a stupid grunt - was taken away.
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#124
Dantriges

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@UpUpandaway

Ok, let´s try to go back to a more neutral level.

 

I found the argument, let´s say, rather surprising. It´s not unusual people criticise stuff or state why they dislike something, without being able to change it or there being any possibility for change. I wasn´t trying to attack you in our debate, from my perspective it was just an explnation that I didn´t like it and tried to explain it further what exactly, when I had the feeling that you were concentrating more on the choices in the plot aspect, when I was more about space BW allocated to the player for defining the character. Then your argument "you can´t change it anyways" came rather unexpected. Actually the whole post felt a bit aggressive from my side of the screen.



#125
Iakus

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I believe I made it clear that the dialogue I was citing was "if selected" and that it was possible to interpret it in different ways.  I also believe I did indicate that the "illusion" wasn't as pronounced in ME3... and that is why, inideed, you and others are upset.  I have also said directly to you that you can continue to be upset if you so choose.  I do not like being "attacked" by "all" of you whenever I express my feeling of "not being upset" and no matter how or how often I say you can continue to be upset at Bioware, but I'm am not upset - you all seem to "take umbrage." and I do think that carrying on a "grudge" against a gaming company for 4 years is both a little excessive and potentially unhealthy... for you... but you are certainly entitled to persist with it if you want.

 

IMO, this whole response of yours to me is pointless beyond just attacking my feelings and try, yet again, to put me personally on the defensive.  It does not seem to further the academic discussion in any way.  So, please... go try to poke another bear... this one isn't biting.

If you took offense at what I asked here, well, there's nothing I can do about it.  I won't apologize, as I don't see anything there that I think could be interpreted as an attack.  A challenge, maybe.  Since you are talking about foreshadowing within the dialogue of earlier ME games referring to ME3's outcome (ie Barla Von's comment on how you can never win "the game" ), I have selected a couple of other seemingly significant statement and asking what you think of them, namely comments from Saren and The Illusive Man, two antagonists of Shepard's who end up siding with the Reapers.