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The DAI Trespasser Marriages

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#1
nightscrawl

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Advanced apologies for length.

 

I decided to make this thread here because the same people usually post when this issue crops up in the main DAI forums, and I wanted to see what you all in this group thought about it. Did you like or dislike them? Were you pleased or displeased with the inclusion of the option?

 

Before I give my view, please keep in mind that Dorian is my preferred LI and there was no marriage option for him. I also have not seen either Cullen or Sera's options. I do feel that I am coming from a place of neutrality on this issue.

 

 

That said, I think they were handled badly. Well, for everyone who did not romance either Cullen or Sera, I suppose.

 

From a personal perspective, I don't necessarily want or need to get married to my LI. In fact, I'm still trying to figure out how my Inquisitor feels about it, which is difficult since it's all bound up with the realities of his relationship with Dorian. And to be honest, I don't think it's something that Dorian would want to do for various reasons that I've posted about elsewhere, so I won't elaborate here (I can if someone wants). However, I do think it's a shame that none of the other LIs, other than a non-committal response from Iron Bull, even have the option to broach the subject. But... I can see why they did that as well.

 

From a character writing perspective, I do NOT think that marriage should be an option for all of the LI. I think the writer should treat this, along with other things, according to the character's personality, and do not think the option should be included for everyone simply for the sake of having everyone able to be married. There are many reasons someone might not want to get married, and I don't feel that the lack of marriage detracts from a loving, committed relationship.

 

From a game writing perspective, imagine you are one of these writers and you don't think it's in-character for your character to get, or want to get married, regardless of however much they love their partner, and for whatever reason. Then you are forced to write a dialogue response where they turn the PC down. I don't care how tactfully it is written, how wonderfully the LI responds, how reasonable their answer is, or how in-keeping with role-play it would be, it would still be a huge blow to a LOT of players to be refused in such a way. In that case, I think they made the right choice in just not allowing the option to be addressed at all.

 

Of course, the monkey wrench thrown into that is the "joke" Varric plays on Cassandra that has her inquire about marriage prospects, regardless of whom the Inquisitor romanced. I think that rather ruins any sort of forethought that the writers had in disallowing the option in the first place. As I've said elsewhere: it makes Cassandra look like an idiot, Varric look like an ass, and the player feel bad*.

 

The conversation with Cassandra suggests that it might be something that the player might be able to talk about with their LI, so they run over and discover that there is no such option. Also, depending on the order of things, it can come across as worse simply due to circumstance -- there is one Dorian thread poster who went over to discuss it with him and was met by the going away party cinematic, an unfortunate happenstance. For some**, she can look like an insensitive clod in the case of a Solas romance.

 

I don't think that such a conversation can rightly be handled in a simple cinematic; it's a serious issue for a couple to discuss. In that case, I don't like the bit with Cassandra in the least and think it should not have been in the game at all.

 

 

In the end, while I accept the decision for some of these LI, I think it was executed poorly.

 

 

*, ** Obviously, does not apply to everyone, and YMMV, as they say.



#2
wright1978

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I didn't like Cassandra's proposal rejection personally. Felt completely offhand.



#3
SporkFu

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Sera's romance in Trespasser was amazing. Sera's character in Trespasser was amazing, but more so if romanced. She was still Sera, so if one didn't like her in the main game, one probably still wouldn't like her ...but she'd grown as a person, and I thought it was sweet and touching to see it.

#4
nightscrawl

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^ Yeah, I have seen many posts from Sera fans saying that the whole thing was really sweet and adorable. I certainly don't begrudge the Sera and Cullen folks their marriages AT ALL, and am happy that they got to have such a nice conclusion. :D

 

 

[edit]

Although I do wonder how it's handled if the player doesn't want to get married. Do you just not choose certain dialogues and avoid it? Can you turn them down but still remain in the romance? Is there a "let me think about it" line?

 

I know one player with some past rl marriage issues that was not too enthused with the inclusion of the option, so that was another perspective. I can see why, especially as a straight women for whom it is expected to want to get married and have children, and then if you don't it's like there's something wrong with you.


Modifié par nightscrawl, 03 mars 2016 - 08:36 .


#5
vertigomez

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Just to get this out of the way: as a Seramancer, I'm shamelessly biased. Her proposal was lovely and in character, I enjoyed that it was referenced in banter (with Vivienne, Blackwall, and the Viddasala, I think?), I loved that Dorian teases us about it, etc. I didn't necessarily need the wedding scene - for me, it was all about the fact that she asked.

That said, the option is also there to say "it's enough that we're together." And I think that's important.

Like the conversation Shep and Garrus had... he asked what her feelings were on having kids at some point, and the player basically has the option of saying 1) That's a good idea, or 2) No, not for me. Garrus instigates that line of conversation but there's zero pressure on the player (and Shep!) to say yes. It puts the power in the player's hands.

There's a similar situation with Zevran and the earring he gives you. If you reject it the first time and tell him you'll only accept his gift if it 'means something', he'll try again later. When you accept, you have the option of asking if it's a proposal, and he says, "Only if you wish it." (The VO notes in the toolset describe his tone as hopeful.)

#6
nightscrawl

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^ Sort of OT, but... isn't Garrus a non-human alien? You can have hybrid babies?? I haven't played any of the ME games.



#7
vertigomez

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^ Sort of OT, but... isn't Garrus a non-human alien? You can have hybrid babies?? I haven't played any of the ME games.


Haha! Well, he (jokingly?) asks if she'd like to find out what turian/human babies look like, and then I think something about adopting orphans.

It was cute, anyway. :P

#8
Biotic Apostate

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Still haven't touched Trespasser, but I was surprised to hear about any marriages happening in it. The timeframe seems relatively small, a year for Inquisition and 2 years between it and Trespasser. I'm not surprised most don't mention marriage yet. It's more weird in that context that no one got married in DA2 (which lasts 10 years).



#9
nightscrawl

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^ The exact time frame is vague for Inquisition. As I outline here, there is a maximum possible time of 1 year, 11 months, and I think it's open to head-canon. But even if it were a single year, considering some months during DAI itself and then the two between for Trespasser, two years and some months together as a couple seems reasonable to me o_O.

 

I don't have a problem with no marriage for some of the LI. The carrot dangle on the part of the devs, particularly with Cassandra's conversation, is what bothers me.



#10
HuldraDancer

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I've only gotten through Trespasser with an Iron Bull romance and a Cullen romance so far, really wished Bull had more romance content but most of his stuff was played up for laughs. Did get what I personally thought was a nice little dialog from him where he more or less says while it's not something important to him that he'll do whatever ceremony you want when everything is said and done. Also liked that as an elf you could include Dalish vows in the wedding with Cullen if you so wanted to.

 

So the marriage thing is kind of only for a few LIs? Well shows how smart I am I took the Cassandra line to mean that the subject could be brought up with your LI period even if you couldn't marry. (excluding Solas of course) Shame I was kind of looking forward to talking bout it with Blackwall in my next run.



#11
Hanako Ikezawa

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As someone who romances Josephine, Trespasser pissed me off with how they handled it. Not only are you not able to get married to her, but you aren't even able to talk about the possibility of it down the road. At least with characters like Cassandra and The Iron Bull you can discuss it, even if it doesn't happen. But not Josephine, the character whom it would be the best fit of all the romances in Dragon Age: Inquisition and whose romance quest was literally dueling her arranged fiance for her hand. This is especially infuriating since for years I've wanted the option to marry my LI, and when there is one that is perfect and seems like that's where it will go, they pull the rug out and don't let it even be a discussion. 

 

Also, why is it that only female protagonists can marry their love interests? In Origins the female Warden can marry Alistair if human, in DA2 female Hawke can marry Sebastian, and in Inquisition female Inquisitor can marry Cullen and Sera. Yet for all three games, there is not a single LI a male protagonist can marry. 



#12
Akrabra

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As someone who romances Josephine, Trespasser pissed me off with how they handled it. Not only are you not able to get married to her, but you aren't even able to talk about the possibility of it down the road. At least with characters like Cassandra and The Iron Bull you can discuss it, even if it doesn't happen. But not Josephine, the character whom it would be the best fit of all the romances in Dragon Age: Inquisition and whose romance quest was literally dueling her arranged fiance for her hand. 

Well if you consider Josephine's origins and how important her family is to her. Don't you think that would be a step she is Interested in after you actually meet and get to know her family? Which only happens after Trespasser. I am not saying it couldn't have been a discussion in Trespasser, but it makes sort of sense atleast. 



#13
HuldraDancer

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For some**, she can look like an insensitive clod in the case of a Solas romance.

 

That line is still brought up even in the Solas romance? Wow. I mean wow. Well should be fun figuring out how I'm going to have Ceres respond to that when I get around to playing her.



#14
nightscrawl

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That line is still brought up even in the Solas romance? Wow. I mean wow. Well should be fun figuring out how I'm going to have Ceres respond to that when I get around to playing her.

 

Well, it depends on the player's perspective. I know one person who took it rather badly, yet saw another who didn't think it was too terrible.

 

I really think that if the Cassandra joke thing had not been in the game, if the Cullen and Sera people had just had their marriages and that was it, that it might not be as bad. This is especially so since a chunk of players might not have even found out about those marriages in the first place if they aren't involved in the fandom or play multiple characters (not a common thing). In that case it would only be a matter of some players getting a thing while others do not. But this scene just compounds it for no reason other than a half-assed attempt to be funny at Cassandra's expense, which I feel falls flat.



#15
HuldraDancer

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Well least now I know not to get my hopes up about talking to my other LIs about marriage. I truly thought that it was something you could mention to any of your LIs even if they didn't go for it. Though I still find it odd that the line would still be there for Solasmancers that probably sucked for some people the first time around. Though then again it would be silly to have the line changed just for one romance flag. Probably could of done something else if they wanted to do a joke and try to make Cassandra appear adorkable.

 

Eh I personally won't let it bother me but it is nice to know ahead of time now before I get there with other characters. Guess I got lucky on my first two :D



#16
nightscrawl

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Also, why is it that only female protagonists can marry their love interests? In Origins the female Warden can marry Alistair if human, in DA2 female Hawke can marry Sebastian, and in Inquisition female Inquisitor can marry Cullen and Sera. Yet for all three games, there is not a single LI a male protagonist can marry.


Well if you consider Josephine's origins and how important her family is to her. Don't you think that would be a step she is Interested in after you actually meet and get to know her family? Which only happens after Trespasser. I am not saying it couldn't have been a discussion in Trespasser, but it makes sort of sense atleast.


I agree with both of these. For Josephine, I see both points. Her romance would have been perfect for it, but even if the idea was to wait, they missed the opportunity to discuss it as a future idea.

As for the male PC, Josephine fits the best.

 

Cassandra is problematic because she could very well be Divine. Also, she would want the whole huge romantic deal with a marriage proposal, down on one knee, romantic setting, all that. That moment in Trespasser, while the future of the Inquisition (her Inquisition!) hangs in the balance, I don't see as the right moment.

 

For Iron Bull, well, most of the descriptions I've seen of various aspects of the romance sound like the Inquisitor is the constant aggressor, despite their sexual roles. For marriage, I don't see it being very romantic, or enthusiastic, to say, "Well, if it's what you really want, then OK."

 

As far as Dorian goes, I don't think marriage is something he would go for initially. He will have had negative associations with it all his life, not only what it means for nobility (this is especially the case if the Inquisitor is a Trevelyan), but also because of the negativity of his own parents' marriage. In addition, I really rather doubt that getting married to another man is something that he EVER could have possibly conceived as a thing that could happen in his life. Hell, if you raised the issue he might actually think you're joking for a moment. To him, marriage would not be about love, so I can see him simply asking, "Why?" (I have some other stuff, but risk getting carried away. That is the gist of it.)

 

As progressive as Bioware is, sometimes they do fall back on old tropes. I don't know the ratio of male to female players for the Sera romance, but I do know that the Cullen-mancers are overwhelmingly female. Women want to get married and all that stuff right? So let's have these two female romances get married. That seems like the thought process.



#17
Lady Artifice

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I'll just echo the sentiment that I think the Cassandra scene was handled a bit clumsily...which was exacerbated by the fact that my first Tespasser playthrough was with a Solasmance import. 



#18
Dani100

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Sera in Trespasser thoughts
Spoiler


#19
Sifr

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Sera in Trespasser thoughts

Spoiler

 

I loved how the dialogue for the Inquistion proposal ("So... marriage?") and the answer ("You're a loony") ended up being reversed in Trespasser, making it into a really sweet brick joke and call back.