105 réponses à ce sujet

[Bowlcuts]

ME1's dialogue wheel wasn't perfect either.

 

-I have to go, sorry. = I should go 

-Cya = I'll see you later, goodbye 

-Get outta my way ***** = I should go 

 

Terribad.

[Andrew Lucas]

ME1's dialogue wheel wasn't perfect either.

 

-I have to go, sorry. = I should go

-Cya = I'll see you later, goodbye

-Get outta my way ***** = I should go

 

Terribad.

By far the worst one.

[Hiemoth]

ME1's dialogue wheel wasn't perfect either.

 

-I have to go, sorry. = I should go 

-Cya = I'll see you later, goodbye 

-Get outta my way ***** = I should go 

 

Terribad.

 

It's actually kind of funny as I just started to replay ME1 and it just strikes me so hard when I am looking at multiple choices and realize they will all result in the same response. It is just really jarring.

[UpUpAway]

Of the three games, ME2 had the best dialogue options.  The issue I had with ME2 is that it was so tied to the P/R points that, initially at least, I was very afraid to deviate from either the top side or the bottom side of the wheel and the game didn't really become fun from a character-building perspective until I started playing it using mixed choices. 

 

ME3's break from that stringent P/R feel was a relief, but I agree with others that have noted that there were far fewer dialogue choices to make. 

 

As for ME1, it just seemed to contain a lot of irrelevant choices at times that led to dialogue so similar it didn't matter (as illustrated by Bowlcuts above) or even the exact same dialogue being delivered no matter what selection was made... and that made it feel like there was a lot of filler being disguised as choice.

 

I would like to see choices most like ME2, but with the point assignment (if any) being more like ME3 where the player gets straight Reputation points just for completing the dialogue and maybe more points for doing some investigation options.  I think they should maybe also mix up the wheel more so that it can't be so easily assumed that everything on the top half of the wheel is "point-gaining" paragon and the bottom half is "point-gaining" renegade.  It's great for the neutral choices to also be there, but I hope they don't draw a direct connection between the neutral option and "neutral" reputation points.

 

I agree that a lot of the issue is the expense of voice acting... but making an A-list video game these days is simply not a cheap endeavor.

[Joseph Warrick]

Old school games were so dumbed down with their quaint, simplistic dialogue lists pandering to the lowest common denominator:
 

 
Unfortunately, some modern games have followed this approach from the old school and still feature an appalling lack of options as well as a concerning flat tone that hurts role play.
 


Thankfully somebody decided to take dialogue seriously in their games, like we see below:



Here we have a total of seven options, including two investigate lines and two dynamic lines that only appear depending on the character's race and on the presence of a specific party member. This not only offers a great deal of replayability, but also makes it easier to define who your character is.

 

It's truly commendable that at least one company has moved beyond the simplicity of the older games and is finally giving dialogue the attention it deserves.

(In case someone can't tell: yes, I've used unfair, not entirely representative images to paint an overly black-and-white scenario. It's what we do in this thread, isn't it?)

[Khrystyn]

I posted this in another forum  thread and feel it's appropriate to add here.

 

What if the Dialog Wheel gave us no clue as to what would happen next?

 

Each choice leads to an outcome that we can not have anticipated or controlled. For example, in the ME-3 shooting scene with Anderson and T.I.M., what if the Dialog Wheel’s choices had been displayed cryptically as:

 

   D: Scenario 4       A: Scenario 1     

                \    /

E: Scenario 5  --- 0 --- B:  Scenario 2   

                /    \

   F: Scenario 6       C: Scenario 3         

 

In trying each of the six scenarios, we find out that:

 

Choice A: Shepard shoots TIM.

 

Choice B: T.I.M. shoots himself.

 

Choice C: Anderson pulls out a gun unexpectedly and he shoots T.I.M.

 

Choice D: Anderson screams: "You can't control anything, you bastard!" and he suddenly rushes T.I.M., and together they both fall into the chasm (go over the edge). Anderson has sacrificed himself so Shepard can reach the controls to activate the Crucible unharmed.

 

Choice E)  T.I.M. shoots Shepard, and in response, Anderson screams "Nooooooo!", and then he rushes TIM so that they both go over the edge.

 

Choice F) Shepard's love interest appears out of nowhere, badly injured and bleeding. T.I.M. shoots the L.I.; the L.I. shoots T.I.M., and then the L.I. then dies in Shepard's arms. Their final intimate conversation has Shepard weeping in stunned horror, trying desperately to stop the bleeding (and has you reaching for tissues to wipe away your tears.). If there’s no L.I., the NPC would be the one you brought with you on more missions and assignments than any of the others in the squad.

 

Imagine the shock you'd have as you witness different events unfold that you could not have anticipated or controlled. An autosave occurs at the beginning of the cutscene so that you can easily reload it and try all six outcomes.

 

In all these scenarios T.I.M. will be dead anyway, so the scene following each of these surprises shows Shepard making the same story progression towards the penultimate ending scene. Perhaps in Andromeda this could be a way at a critical moment where our Dialog Option choices are unknowable, unpredictable, and are completely out of our control.

[AlanC9]

What would happen besides everyone hating the game, you mean? I'm not really sure what you're asking.

[KaiserShep]

Dialogue roulette sounds awful. I'd rather someone just made a mod that did this so people can see just how awful it would be. 

[In Exile]

And when Bioware does that, Shepard stops being our character and becomes their character. We're not shaping the story, we're just along for the ride. Might as well have Mac Walters read us the story.

Shepard stopped being my character in ME1 when he frothed at the mouth like some lunatic because the Council didn't take his completely unsubstantiated testimony as sufficient evidence to have Saren arrested for treason.

[Master Warder Z_]

Shepard stopped being my character in ME1 when he frothed at the mouth like some lunatic because the Council didn't take his completely unsubstantiated testimony as sufficient evidence to have Saren arrested for treason.

 

[In Exile]

I posted this in another forum thread and feel it's appropriate to add here.

What if the Dialog Wheel gave us no clue as to what would happen next?

Each choice leads to an outcome that we can not have anticipated or controlled. For example, in the ME-3 shooting scene with Anderson and T.I.M., what if the Dialog Wheel’s choices had been displayed cryptically as:

D: Scenario 4 A: Scenario 1
\ /
E: Scenario 5 --- 0 --- B: Scenario 2
/ \
F: Scenario 6 C: Scenario 3

In trying each of the six scenarios, we find out that:

Choice A: Shepard shoots TIM.

Choice B: T.I.M. shoots himself.

Choice C: Anderson pulls out a gun unexpectedly and he shoots T.I.M.

Choice D: Anderson screams: "You can't control anything, you bastard!" and he suddenly rushes T.I.M., and together they both fall into the chasm (go over the edge). Anderson has sacrificed himself so Shepard can reach the controls to activate the Crucible unharmed.

Choice E) T.I.M. shoots Shepard, and in response, Anderson screams "Nooooooo!", and then he rushes TIM so that they both go over the edge.

Choice F) Shepard's love interest appears out of nowhere, badly injured and bleeding. T.I.M. shoots the L.I.; the L.I. shoots T.I.M., and then the L.I. then dies in Shepard's arms. Their final intimate conversation has Shepard weeping in stunned horror, trying desperately to stop the bleeding (and has you reaching for tissues to wipe away your tears.). If there’s no L.I., the NPC would be the one you brought with you on more missions and assignments than any of the others in the squad.

Imagine the shock you'd have as you witness different events unfold that you could not have anticipated or controlled. An autosave occurs at the beginning of the cutscene so that you can easily reload it and try all six outcomes.

In all these scenarios T.I.M. will be dead anyway, so the scene following each of these surprises shows Shepard making the same story progression towards the penultimate ending scene. Perhaps in Andromeda this could be a way at a critical moment where our Dialog Option choices are unknowable, unpredictable, and are completely out of our control.

This is a great idea but we need to take it further. All of the keybindings a randomized instead and they become randomized again every 10 of so inputs. This way it becomes impossible to know what any key does. Want to pause? Want to move? Irrelevant! The left thumbstick switched from movement to menu options to nothing at all at the press of a button! Want to shoot? Too bad! You quicksaved.

[KaiserShep]

This is a great idea but we need to take it further. All of the keybindings a randomized instead and they become randomized again every 10 of so inputs. This way it becomes impossible to know what any key does. Want to pause? Want to move? Irrelevant! The left thumbstick switched from movement to menu options to nothing at all at the press of a button! Want to shoot? Too bad! You quicksaved.

 

 

[aoibhealfae]

Actually, the dialogue wheel in ME3 was the exact same as in ME2. If you notice it, there's very little amount of three P/N/R dialogues choices in ME2 (and sometimes when you pick the right hand exposition dialogues, it negate one of the dialogue choices), and the placement is shown in the dialogue wheel while all neutral responses in ME3 was relegated to renegade spot with occasional true renegade.

 

ME2 was really a lot more worst at autodialogues than ME3. And you hardly even do anything much except initiating dialogues and listen to them speaking exposition for you. 

[CronoDragoon]

ME2 does have a lot more wheels, though, so that counts for something.

 

In any case, the relevant comparison seems to me to be Dragon Age: Inquisition, which has a dialogue wheel that blows away any that BioWare has done before. I don't see why that can't be replicated in Andromeda except by stylistic design (as in ME3 the thought was to make cutscenes flow better by having more autodialogue determined by your P/R alignment and fewer wheels themselves).

[Gothfather]

This.

 

It's quite amusing to read posts asking for the 'old system' to come back. If you actually bother to count the number of options, you'll realise that that 'Investigate' option simply collapses down the superflous, options dialogues that would have taken up slots 5-6 on the old list system.

 

Shhhh don't use logic and fact in an emotional base argument. They wont listen, they wont believe you and they won't ever change their opinion based on the facts because they 'know' they are right.

[Daemul]

Shepard stopped being my character in ME1 when he frothed at the mouth like some lunatic because the Council didn't take his completely unsubstantiated testimony as sufficient evidence to have Saren arrested for treason.

Every time I get to this point in ME1 I facepalm. Shepard and Anderson are idiots.

[wright1978]

Of the three games, ME2 had the best dialogue options.  The issue I had with ME2 is that it was so tied to the P/R points that, initially at least, I was very afraid to deviate from either the top side or the bottom side of the wheel and the game didn't really become fun from a character-building perspective until I started playing it using mixed choices. 

 

ME3's break from that stringent P/R feel was a relief, but I agree with others that have noted that there were far fewer dialogue choices to make. 

 

As for ME1, it just seemed to contain a lot of irrelevant choices at times that led to dialogue so similar it didn't matter (as illustrated by Bowlcuts above) or even the exact same dialogue being delivered no matter what selection was made... and that made it feel like there was a lot of filler being disguised as choice.

 

I would like to see choices most like ME2, but with the point assignment (if any) being more like ME3 where the player gets straight Reputation points just for completing the dialogue and maybe more points for doing some investigation options.  I think they should maybe also mix up the wheel more so that it can't be so easily assumed that everything on the top half of the wheel is "point-gaining" paragon and the bottom half is "point-gaining" renegade.  It's great for the neutral choices to also be there, but I hope they don't draw a direct connection between the neutral option and "neutral" reputation points.

 

I agree that a lot of the issue is the expense of voice acting... but making an A-list video game these days is simply not a cheap endeavor.

 

Agree ME2 had best options and agree regarding the P/R tie was a problem even though i still played a mixed character responding to the situation despite it.

I don't mind if ME3's reputation points return and wouldn't have any issue if there were neutral points if that allowed the return of those vital dialogue options that were gutted as part of ME3's awful dialogue wheel. I don't think you can skimp on the dialogue wheel, otherwise you end up with the scummy system filled full with characterising auto-dialogue like me3 and many players feels a complete loss of agency or control over their character.

[Shechinah]

In any case, the relevant comparison seems to me to be Dragon Age: Inquisition, which has a dialogue wheel that blows away any that BioWare has done before. I don't see why that can't be replicated in Andromeda except by stylistic design (as in ME3 the thought was to make cutscenes flow better by having more autodialogue determined by your P/R alignment and fewer wheels themselves).

 

I agree with everything except that I do disagree about Paragon and Renegade alignment affecting autodialogue and the wheel because I can see ways where that could cause inconsistent characterization as well as limit roleplay. One situation may call for one response from the player but another situation may call for a complete different one.
 

[9TailsFox]

Old school games were so dumbed down with their quaint, simplistic dialogue lists pandering to the lowest common denominator:
 

 
Unfortunately, some modern games have followed this approach from the old school and still feature an appalling lack of options as well as a concerning flat tone that hurts role play.
 


Thankfully somebody decided to take dialogue seriously in their games, like we see below:



Here we have a total of seven options, including two investigate lines and two dynamic lines that only appear depending on the character's race and on the presence of a specific party member. This not only offers a great deal of replayability, but also makes it easier to define who your character is.

 

It's truly commendable that at least one company has moved beyond the simplicity of the older games and is finally giving dialogue the attention it deserves.

(In case someone can't tell: yes, I've used unfair, not entirely representative images to paint an overly black-and-white scenario. It's what we do in this thread, isn't it?)

[aoibhealfae]

In ME2, the exchanges were largely passive, while every few seconds there's a dialogue wheel and yet you really can't maneuver much. The conversation hardly make any differences except for red/blue unlocks and certain big choices. And most of conversation was lengthy expositions or whether you choose to care about it or being dismissive about it. Plus, Shepard took the role as an observer rather than a participant, the focus wasn't on the main character or even the main conflict but rather on the NPCs, insignificant characters, fetch quests etc.
 

I grew up with Japanese RPGs (translated in English of course) and so I am already familiar with cinematic-style limited RPGs. As an ESL, I really don't feel enamored with Bethesda-like games. I still play them but not for the text RP quality. I do see the appeal of RPGs with multiple lines of small dialogues but wtf, why do I need dialogue choice to say the same thing thrice! And Bioware are no longer writing with traditional RPG in mind. I saw the interview with Patrick Weekes talking about video game writing and he himself said that Bioware have moved toward screenplay writing for cinematic storytelling. He knew there's so many people who wanted the old-style back but they've moved on.

[CronoDragoon]

I agree with everything except that I do disagree about Paragon and Renegade alignment affecting autodialogue and the wheel because I can see ways where that could cause inconsistent characterization as well as limit roleplay. One situation may call for one response from the player but another situation may call for a complete different one.
 

 

Sure. I was just relaying what BioWare said when they explained why there are fewer wheels in ME3.

[Iakus]

ME2 does have a lot more wheels, though, so that counts for something.

 

In any case, the relevant comparison seems to me to be Dragon Age: Inquisition, which has a dialogue wheel that blows away any that BioWare has done before. I don't see why that can't be replicated in Andromeda except by stylistic design (as in ME3 the thought was to make cutscenes flow better by having more autodialogue determined by your P/R alignment and fewer wheels themselves).

Cutscenes are fine.  But we're not watching a movie here.  Players need to feel in control of their own characters.  When "flow" undermines that, people are going to get p*ssed.  And they are right to do so.  

[Gothfather]

Cutscenes are fine.  But we're not watching a movie here.  Players need to feel in control of their own characters.  When "flow" undermines that, people are going to get p*ssed.  And they are right to do so.  

LMFAO and people got upset with DAI not having enough cutscenes.

 

Seems that gamers are not a monolithic demographic and thus doesn't matter what the issue players will be upset; too much, not enough, etc. If you can't please gamers because they want mutually exclusive things, then perhaps it is better for developers to oh I don't know not pander to the whims of the latest forum rant thread. 

 

Having a right to do something doesn't make it correct. People have "right" to be climate denyers doesn't mean that position is justifiable, rational or something policy should be based on.

 

But this thread is 100% emotionally based argument. Facts are ignored, in favour of what people "feel" is right.

[Drakoriz]

i love how the thread have go from neutral options to dialogue wheel. to cut scenes.

 

 

This alone show how much the gamer community is never happy with what they get.

 

No meter how the dialogues or cut scenes on ME A are going to be ppl will complain no meter what.

[Master Warder Z_]

I saw the interview with Patrick Weekes talking about video game writing and he himself said that Bioware have moved toward screenplay writing for cinematic storytelling. 

 

._.

 

So David Cage basically then?