109 réponses à ce sujet

[Blood Mage Reaver]

Given that magic is pretty much overtaking all the lore in the franchise, it's becoming increasingly difficult to have a protagonist who doesn't have a connection to the Fade.

 

The Inquisitor, whether a mage or not, got the Anchor of Fen'Harel which allowed him/her to manipulate the Fade and perform magic feats even if they were a dwarf but repeating this kind of freak accident to make another "Herald of Andraste" would not only be poor story telling but also raise the question of why ditch the Inquisitor as MC in the first place.

 

Henceforth, our next protagonist could instead be a Hedge Mage.

 

A Hedge Mage has latent magical abilities but since they don't know how to use them it could serve as an excuse for the protagonist to become a warrior or rogue instead of a traditional mage.

 

It could also open the possibility for new hybrid classes in the same vein as the Biotic Vanguard (Warrior + Mage) or Sentinel (Rogue + Mage).

 

It wouldn't feel out of place with the setting either since we've already seen mages who gave up spells for a blade and the only reason we don't have beffed up mages was handwaved as them being constrained in circles, sleeping for several millenia or being rich nobles with to much calories on their diaries.

[Nefla]

I doubt they would ever make a game that restricts you to one class.

[Kimarous]

How is magic "overtaking all the lore"?

[Kakistos_]

You mean a protagonist who only just recently found out about their status as a Mage? That would be interesting but it goes against lore. The power that comes with being a Mage manifests in adolescence and I find it hard to believe that it would go unnoticed into adulthood. Also, a Hedge Mage by definition is a Mage that wields powers developed outside "traditional" teachings.

 

Mage Hawke and Bethany were possibly technically Hedge Mages if you discount that they were taught by their Circle trained father. While one branch of Hedge Magic applies to Mages who are taught differently i.e Morrigan, the definition also applies to Mages who have no training at all such as Saarbas. In that case the Mages Magic apparently develops differently and they become incapable of casting Spells as other Mages do.

 

While this is an interesting concept that I hope is explored further I'm not sure it would work for a protagonist. It would require a completely different set of Spells and talents compared to other Mage Companions and would also, possibly, leave out the possibility of exploring "real" Blood Magic and Blight Magic, that is assuming that DA4 takes place in Tevinter and The Anderfels respectfully.

[Blood Mage Reaver]

I doubt they would ever make a game that restricts you to one class.

By no means you should be restricted to one class, what I mean is that despite having magic you should be able to train as a warrior or a rogue.

 

It always bothered me that, while warriors and rogues can't become mages, there is no reasonable explanion as to why a magic users couldn't opt to develop mundane fighting skill rather than spells.

 

How is magic "overtaking all the lore"?

Elven gods were mages, Titans made dwarfs and can give them magic and immortality, the magic realm known as Fade was once one with the physical world and back then everyone were mages.

 

Back in DAO it was about dealing with political BS from different factions threatened by the blight while magic just popped in between, then we shifted focus to the mage-templar conflict only for that to be overtaken by ancient Tevinter magisters and then setting us against ancient elven demi-god mages.

 

Case in point we went from Loghain/Archdemon (mundane/magic) to Arishok/Meredith/Anders/Orsino (mundane/anti-magic/magic/magic) then to Corypheus/Nightmare/Samsom/Calpernia/Hakkon (magic/magic/anti-magic/magic/magic) and now we are going against Qunari/Tevinter/Solas/Evanuris/Titans/Blight (mundane/magic/magic/magic/magic/magic).

 

You mean a protagonist who only just recently found out about their status as a Mage? That would be interesting but it goes against lore. The power that comes with being a Mage manifests in adolescence and I find it hard to believe that it would go unnoticed into adulthood. Also, a Hedge Mage by definition is a Mage that wields powers developed outside "traditional" teachings.

 

Mage Hawke and Bethany were possibly technically Hedge Mages if you discount that they were taught by their Circle trained father. While one branch of Hedge Magic applies to Mages who are taught differently i.e Morrigan, the definition also applies to Mages who have no training at all such as Saarbas. In that case the Mages Magic apparently develops differently and they become incapable of casting Spells as other Mages do.

 

While this is an interesting concept that I hope is explored further I'm not sure it would work for a protagonist. It would require a completely different set of Spells and talents compared to other Mage Companions and would also, possibly, leave out the possibility of exploring "real" Blood Magic and Blight Magic, that is assuming that DA4 takes place in Tevinter and The Anderfels respectfully.

 

It's not impossible for people to discover their magic only in adulthood, Saarath grew up as an ashkaari (a philosopher) until his magic manifested into early adulthood and he was made into a Saarebas.

 

Commander Shepard is stated to have only shown biotics once he was already a soldier rather than at normal puberty age so there is a precedent for it to happen in both lore and in Bioware's protagonist profiling.

 

The point of having a hedge mage as protagonist is for him or her to perform feats of magic when the plot requires regardless of their game-play class without having to create another anchor to explain how the MC can use magic power regarless of their origins.

[vbibbi]

Thinking back to both the abilities and their visual effects from DAI, I think the world is already becoming more and more magical as the Veil is weakening. The Breach weakened the Veil and even once it was closed, the damage was irreversible. That's why IB can pound his weapon to the ground and have flames shoot up, and Blackwall can make copies of himself stand in a line. And ALL focus abilities for rogues and warriors.

 

So rather than have everyone be a hedge mage in future games, I think if/when the Veil falls in DA4, all future games should keep the three class structure, just allow both warriors and rogues to have many of their martial skills have an element of magic to them, like they did in DAI.

 

 

*note: I am only about 25% serious with all of this. I know the warrior and rogue abilities in DAI were just style over lore-friendly substance, but I could easily see Bioware retcon these and say the quasi-magical abilities were an early indicator of the failing Veil. No joke!

[Medhia_Nox]

No, it's time for the Seeker class - Templar's suck. 

The sooner I get to boil the lyrium inside a mage the better. 

 

"Scary when someone has more power over you than they ought to... isn't it mage?" 

 

So sick of the mages in this IP. 

[Jedi Comedian]

I actually would like to play as a Hedge Mage or an Apostate who takes refuge in Tevinter, only to discover that its also a horrible place, but I highly doubt it will happen.

[Sah291]

Well I agree magic is really central to the lore and theme of DA... I've made all three of my canon characters mages for that reason, and I will probably keep up the trend in the next game. But I would also like to see more interesting mage specializations return, like a hybrid/arcane warrior type specialization or blood mage.

As for other classes using magic... I kind of agree, it has gotten to the point it doesn't make as much sense anymore that mages can't train other weapons, or that non mages can't use magical items. These are old rpg gaming conventions to keep the classes balanced. I guess the biggest obstacle might be multiplayer.

It depends where they take the story/setting next, I guess. But the world state post DAI can be more accepting of magic/mages, so the idea that magic is too suppressed won't work as well in a setting like Tevinter, or if circles have been abolished elsewhere.

[Inkvisiittori]

Hedge Mage sounds interesting, I think I would like that. But only for mages. I don't like the idea of all the classes suddenly being secretly mages. I'm okay with rogues and warriors having some kind of 'magical' abilities, it doesn't personally bother me at all, but I don't want DA to became another Skyrim where you can be everything at once. That makes the choice of your class feel so unimportant when you can just change it when ever you want. No, I much prefer the way it's now. Everyone being secret mages wouldn't fit the DA setting at all (unless maybe if it was major focus of the story and I'm not sure if DA4 is the right game for that). 

[Blood Mage Reaver]

Hedge Mage sounds interesting, I think I would like that. But only for mages. I don't like the idea of all the classes suddenly being secretly mages. I'm okay with rogues and warriors having some kind of 'magical' abilities, it doesn't personally bother me at all, but I don't want DA to became another Skyrim where you can be everything at once. That makes the choice of your class feel so unimportant when you can just change it when ever you want. No, I much prefer the way it's now. Everyone being secret mages wouldn't fit the DA setting at all (unless maybe if it was major focus of the story and I'm not sure if DA4 is the right game for that). 

 

It's like, you have this new guy finding out he can use magic but out of personal choice decides to rely on mundane abilities and trains to become a warrior or rogue.

 

You can't simply retrain your whole origin, the MC won't swap classes in the middle of the game.

 

It's not for changing class but actually for story telling reasons. The point is that, despite not being trained as a mage, there will be moments when you need to perform feats which require magic and the world will react to your untapped magical potential just like a non-mage Inquisitor does with the Anchor.

 

Either the next MC has latent magic powers naturally or we will have to deal with another of Solas's plans going awry to grant magic for non-mages.

[Super Drone]

 

 

It's not for changing class but actually for story telling reasons. The point is that, despite not being trained as a mage, there will be moments when you need to perform feats which require magic and the world will react to your untapped magical potential just like a non-mage Inquisitor does with the Anchor.

 

Either the next MC has latent magic powers naturally or we will have to deal with another of Solas's plans going awry to grant magic for non-mages.

 

Or, you know, the next protagonist will not need to be a Mage because the plot of the next game does not require him to be. You know, like Hawke or The Warden.

 

I'm assuming the counter-point to that argument is asserting that Solas is toooooo Poooooowerful an enemy for stinky Mundanes to fight, so the protagonist just has to be a Mage of some sort. Afterall, does any even play a non-Mage?

[SwobyJ]

Thedas is the magical realm, not the Fade.

 

EDIT: Just wanted to make the comment that Thedas is where 'magic' happens. In the Fade its just... stuff. So in a way its not that we're getting more 'Fade-y', but more that Thedas is revealing more of its actual nature. That being of a world that's always been tied to the beyond. Semanitcs but IMO important ones.

 

On Topic - Cool sure. lol

[Kakistos_]

It's not impossible for people to discover their magic only in adulthood, Saarath grew up as an ashkaari (a philosopher) until his magic manifested into early adulthood and he was made into a Saarebas.

 

Commander Shepard is stated to have only shown biotics once he was already a soldier rather than at normal puberty age so there is a precedent for it to happen in both lore and in Bioware's protagonist profiling.

 

The point of having a hedge mage as protagonist is for him or her to perform feats of magic when the plot requires regardless of their game-play class without having to create another anchor to explain how the MC can use magic power regarless of their origins.

 

Magic may not be discovered until adulthood but that doesn't mean that the effects of going untrained have not set in. The state of being a Hedge Mage, that is, Magic not "flowing" correctly is irreversible.

 

Do not compare Dragon Age lore with Mass Effect lore.

 

I'm not a fan of this idea. First of all a Mage class Protagonist would have to learn a completely different set of skills and would be incapable of learning Spells as other Mages do. Secondly, Hedge Mages are inherently weaker than trained Mages as lore states, the Saarebas of the first Qunari invasion were no match for trained Circle Mages who were ironically the Chantry's best weapon against the Qunari.

 

What would be the point of a protagonist performing inferior feats of Magic in of all places (presumably) Tevinter? If the Saarebas, who's Hedge Magic is focused solely on destruction, were no match for Circle Mages who had restricted Magical education what good would Hedge Magic be against Tevinter Mages, the most educated, unrestricted, powerful and skilled Mages in Thedas? Or anyone who has successfully fought them?

[Phoe77]

I haven't explored everything I just dug up on hedge mages, but the wiki entry for them makes it clear that they can possess powers that aren't available or even known to Circle mages, so it's hard to say that their magic would be inferior.  It also seems like characters like Morrigan and even Solas should be considered to be hedge mages, so while I would agree that many of them would tend to be less effective than a Circle trained mage, it doesn't seem like they would absolutely have to be weaker.  

 

That said, I don't think there's a way to reconcile a hedge mage character with the type of mage that we've become familiar with in the other games.  A hedge mage can't go back and learn to use spells.  Having a hedge mage have access to all of the magical effects that we've grown used to would seem to require a great deal of handwaving or a retcon.  

 

To me, it seems like having the protagonist be a hedge mage would only work if you chose to make the protagonist a warrior or a rogue.  A PC that was created as a mage would probably either have to go without the hedge mage mojo or find an alternate way of developing the same skill (which may be possible if it's akin to learning to shapeshift from Morrigan).

[Xerrai]

No, it's time for the Seeker class - Templar's suck. 

The sooner I get to boil the lyrium inside a mage the better. 

 

"Scary when someone has more power over you than they ought to... isn't it mage?" 

 

So sick of the mages in this IP. 

A Seeker class actually sounds cool. If I could, I would go into every Templar encampment/stronghold, do an investigation and burn the lyrium inside every abusive Templar I find.

[Kakistos_]

I haven't explored everything I just dug up on hedge mages, but the wiki entry for them makes it clear that they can possess powers that aren't available or even known to Circle mages, so it's hard to say that their magic would be inferior.  It also seems like characters like Morrigan and even Solas should be considered to be hedge mages, so while I would agree that many of them would tend to be less effective than a Circle trained mage, it doesn't seem like they would absolutely have to be weaker.  

 

That said, I don't think there's a way to reconcile a hedge mage character with the type of mage that we've become familiar with in the other games.  A hedge mage can't go back and learn to use spells.  Having a hedge mage have access to all of the magical effects that we've grown used to would seem to require a great deal of handwaving or a retcon.  

 

To me, it seems like having the protagonist be a hedge mage would only work if you chose to make the protagonist a warrior or a rogue.  A PC that was created as a mage would probably either have to go without the hedge mage mojo or find an alternate way of developing the same skill (which may be possible if it's akin to learning to shapeshift from Morrigan).

 

The way I see it is that there are two branches of Hedge Mage. Those like Morrigan and Solas who learned Magic outside of "traditional" teachings and the Saarebas who have no training whatsoever. In Morrigan's and Solas' case the term Hedge Mage is more of a derogatory label and though they have learned different skills they are still capable of learning standard Spells as are other Mages capable of learning their Spells as we have seen in gameplay.

 

Morrigan, Solas and other Mages like them are in no way inferior to "traditionally" trained Circle Mages and in fact I have made the argument before that they are superior in not being restricted in their education and Magical expression. For Sarrebas on the other hand, the term Hedge Mage refers to a state of being, a condition called Arcanist Derangement in which their lack of training has the adverse affect of permanently disrupting their "flow" of Magic.

 

This is what I think the OP means when they say they want a Hedge Mage protagonist. While it is true that Arcanist Derangement can manifest in unpredictable ways the untrained nature of the Hedge Mage and ignorance of Magical forces does make them inferior in comparison to trained Mages.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Kakistos_ :  Then you're ignoring those psychos from Rivain who embrace being possessed and the Avvar who are "shamans" - which is a form of Hedge Magic.

 

=====

 

Magic on Thedas is not a science... there is rote magic that appears "stable" like the Circles teach... just like if you do anything in a tradition it is "reproducible".  

 

But magic is derived completely from the mind... the most powerful mages are able to do whatever they please. 

 

It's the reason why Solas sees magical disciplines he's never experienced before.

 

It's the reason Time Magic exists.

 

It's the reason Rift Magic exists. 

 

As successful as Circle magic is for teaching a stable - reproducible - magic that processes the most mages successfully... it also totally cripples mages by funneling them through one "safe" route. 

 

Of course - in the reality of Thedas - most mages would become abominations without "Traditions":  whether they be Circle, Avvar, etc.  So every mage just going out and making up magic as they go is the worst possible idea ever for mages of Thedas. 

 

Though the best possible scenario for spirits... hence, blood magic - so they can backdoor ever imbecile mage who thinks too highly of him/herself.  

[Kakistos_]

@Kakistos_ :  Then you're ignoring those psychos from Rivain who embrace being possessed and the Avvar who are "shamans" - which is a form of Hedge Magic.

 

=====

 

Magic on Thedas is not a science... there is rote magic that appears "stable" like the Circles teach... just like if you do anything in a tradition it is "reproducible".  

 

But magic is derived completely from the mind... the most powerful mages are able to do whatever they please. 

 

It's the reason why Solas sees magical disciplines he's never experienced before.

 

It's the reason Time Magic exists.

 

It's the reason Rift Magic exists. 

 

As successful as Circle magic is for teaching a stable - reproducible - magic that processes the most mages successfully... it also totally cripples mages by funneling them through one "safe" route. 

 

Of course - in the reality of Thedas - most mages would become abominations without "Traditions":  whether they be Circle, Avvar, etc.  So every mage just going out and making up magic as they go is the worst possible idea ever for mages of Thedas. 

 

Though the best possible scenario for spirits... hence, blood magic - so they can backdoor ever imbecile mage who thinks too highly of him/herself.  

 

The Mages of Rivain are trained in their art. They have a Circle Tower. I'm not going to respond to the rest of that drivel at this time. Anyone else who pays attention to the game, history and lore feel free to rip this apart.

[Medhia_Nox]

LOL The seers of Rivain are hedge mages... read the damn codex. 

 

So are the Avvar "shamans"... and the Chasind "witches".  Again... read the codex entries from the game lore you love so much.

 

Maker, can you people even be correct before posting bilious commentary? 

 

Solas and Morrigan are both simply brought up in the elvhen tradition of magic - though admittedly Morrigan probably has branched out by now - making her the "most" Hedge Mage like.  

 

At least you got the Saarebas right - though the ones we've met are not "mad" no matter how much you dislike the Qun and think they would yearn for freedom if they were you.   

 

"arcanist derangement" isn't just a hedge mage problem and certainly not ascribed to Saarebas who are simply "hedge mages focused on destruction" according to the codex... but it afflicts hedge mages because magic in Thedas is based on willpower and mages who give in to their ever whim... have no willpower. 

[thats1evildude]

Not a protagonist, but I think that would make for an interesting support character: a mage who wasn't that great at magic, so s/he trained with weapons and became a warrior. Now s/he just adds a little magic to their attacks.

 

NPC example: Grandin, who had no talent for offensive magic and became a scout.

[Blood Mage Reaver]

Magic may not be discovered until adulthood but that doesn't mean that the effects of going untrained have not set in. The state of being a Hedge Mage, that is, Magic not "flowing" correctly is irreversible.

 

Do not compare Dragon Age lore with Mass Effect lore.

 

I'm not a fan of this idea. First of all a Mage class Protagonist would have to learn a completely different set of skills and would be incapable of learning Spells as other Mages do. Secondly, Hedge Mages are inherently weaker than trained Mages as lore states, the Saarebas of the first Qunari invasion were no match for trained Circle Mages who were ironically the Chantry's best weapon against the Qunari.

 

What would be the point of a protagonist performing inferior feats of Magic in of all places (presumably) Tevinter? If the Saarebas, who's Hedge Magic is focused solely on destruction, were no match for Circle Mages who had restricted Magical education what good would Hedge Magic be against Tevinter Mages, the most educated, unrestricted, powerful and skilled Mages in Thedas? Or anyone who has successfully fought them?

 

The point is not that the MC can perform feats of magic but rather that magic itself finds it's way to work with the MC.

 

Case in point, the Inquisitor, regardless of being a mage or not, got mastery over Fade Rifts due to Solas true magic being transplanted into his/her hand and to match Solas the next MC will inevitably need an overwhelming amount of magic power at his/her disposal.

 

This can happen through two ways:

 

1- The next MC is a hedge mage whose unique untamed magic can interact with ancient Elven artifacts and screw up with Solas plans.

 

2- The next MC is Inquisitor 2.0 who gets his mojo from interrupting Solas magic ritual entirely by chance.

 

The first option gives way for an MC which is unique to all of Thedas in his/her own right like a true choosen one for all subsequent games, the second basically makes retiring the Inquisitor and severing his hand a blatant cop-out for having made the previous protagonist too powerful to remain on the front.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Blood Mage Reaver:  But you don't understand what a Hedge Mage is. 

 

They're not just "mages with unique powers" - they're given over to unique traditions and strange practices that allow those powers to work.

 

In our real worlds rich occult history - we have practitioners of high magic.  A strictly organized tradition derived mostly from the Kabbalah but certainly has - especially now - adopted other traditions into its strict codex.

 

Then we have sympathetic magic.  Magic that works more through a connection with the earth and feelings.  Wicca works this way.  It uses rote traditions (we often call them superstitions) to carry out its sympathetic magical spells.  Hedge Magic is like real world sympathetic magic (with the addition of dangerous spirits).  

 

All the examples of hedge mages on Thedas have distinct practices that they must faithfully follow to be "those kinds of hedge mages".  Avvar practice shamanism... the Seers practice a kind of voodoo loa possession magic... the witches of the Chasind very likely have their own practices (Morrigan and Flemeth are not Chasind witches).  

 

Hedge Magic on Thedas isn't just a "cool, we can break the rules" system that exists.  It has distinct, obvious rules of its own.  

 

As for the Mark and the Inquisitor... it is not hedge magic.  It's a magical item - which is why Solas can just remove it on a whim.  

[thats1evildude]

I think a hedge mage in Dragon Age is just a mage who lacks the training to properly use their powers. Their magic then manifests in unpredictable ways. While that can sometimes be a good thing, more often than not the end result is insanity.

[Phoe77]

Again, I admit that I'm not incredibly well versed in this issue.   However, what I have read and heard stated about the subject seems to indicate that arcanist derangement is about more than a lack of discipline.  If it were as simple as that then there would not logically be any reason that a hedge mage would not be able to develop normal spellcasting practices.  

 

 

All the examples of hedge mages on Thedas have distinct practices that they must faithfully follow to be "those kinds of hedge mages".  Avvar practice shamanism... the Seers practice a kind of voodoo loa possession magic... the witches of the Chasind very likely have their own practices (Morrigan and Flemeth are not Chasind witches). 

 

I also didn't get the impression that all hedge mages belong to specific traditions.  I suppose that traditions such as Avvar shamanism would fall under the distinction of hedge magic (though I wouldn't be inclined to believe that if it weren't stated), but what I've read seems to indicate that hedge mages can manifest their abilities without any specific training.  They may develop their own methodologies for employing their gifts, but I'd be more likely to believe that most of them would be more akin to solitary practitioners who don't belong to a formal tradition than someone who actively participates in Wicca or, like, the Golden Dawn.

 

The way that hedge magic is discussed in the Apostate codex entry makes it seem like the term "hedge mage" can be applied to any mage who practices magic in a way different than the one taught at a Circle.  I doubt that's all it takes to be labeled a hedge mage, since groups like Dalish mages would then fall under that description.  It leaves out any mention of arcanist derangement, which seems to be a key element of what separates a true hedge mage from a mage who just hasn't been trained.

 

On a side note, I wonder if all this means that Avvar mages and Chasind witches would then be unable to employ traditional spellcasting as practiced by Circle Mages, or if they're referred to as hedge mages more as a colloquialism than a strict academic term.  I'm inclined to believe the latter, but not for any specific reason.