109 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia_Nox]

@Blood Mage Reaver:  Yes, yes...  DA mages are defined by their victimization.  

[The Baconer]

It does bear a point. You'd never see a mage fasting and meditating for a year, because they are/were actively barred from the process of becoming a Seeker and the knowledge of what it entails.

[eyezonlyii]

I'd be terrified of the mage who showed real willpower on Thedas.

 

You mean like Vivienne?

[Medhia_Nox]

@eyezonlyii:  Yes, I think Vivienne is definitely strong willed... but, I also think she's very distracted by too many plebeian things like status and appearance. 

 

I don't think she'd ever fast and meditate for an entire year in solitude... unless she was aware it gave her great status perhaps.  

[SwobyJ]

@eyezonlyii:  Yes, I think Vivienne is definitely strong willed... but, I also think she's very distracted by too many plebeian things like status and appearance. 

 

I don't think she'd ever fast and meditate for an entire year in solitude... unless she was aware it gave her great status perhaps.  

 

You just said it. If it promised the latter, she'd effing do it.

[Kimarous]

I get the feeling that the only mages who'd intentionally do a "fasting and meditating" routine would be ones like Keili, the doctrine of "we mages are cursed and must atone for our sins" burrowed deep into their mindset. Y'know, that one mage girl you find praying in the Mage origin? Her.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Swobyj:  But... you don't really gain status from being a Seeker.  Not the type she's looking for anyway.  It's an invisible fear type status... and while I don't think Vivienne would shy away from enjoying being feared... I don't think it's her bread and butter.

 

Also... fasting and being cloistered would be hell on her complexion and she would NOT have it.  

 

@Kimarous:  Perhaps, but self-loathing is not the reason people actually fast and meditate.  

 

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My point simply is... is that a mage actually willing to show the willpower it takes to do something like this... would be far more formidable than what we've seen. 

 

Magic being literally defined by a mages willpower on Thedas and all. 

[eyezonlyii]

The point I'm making with Vivienne is that had she not been born a mage, she very likely could have been a Seeker or Templar with her viewpoint on magic. Not every mage adheres to the victim status, in fact if you ask her in Haven after first recruiting her, she pretty much trashes Fiona and the Rebellion.

[Phoe77]

See, I don't know about that though.  None of the mages that we've seen haven't shown their willpower in that way, but that doesn't mean they haven't shown comparable levels of willpower, especially since we have no way of knowing how the mental efforts of consciously casting a powerful spell or resisting a demon equate to what's required for meditation and whatnot.  Also, I find it very difficult to believe that mage training doesn't involve at least a good amount of exercises aimed at developing mental discipline considering how important that discipline is for being a successful mage.  

 

Maybe the books or some other bit of lore I haven't seen goes into the intricacies of spellcasting and thus would provide a better idea of the efforts involved.

[Medhia_Nox]

The point I'm making with Vivienne is that had she not been born a mage, she very likely could have been a Seeker or Templar with her viewpoint on magic. Not every mage adheres to the victim status, in fact if you ask her in Haven after first recruiting her, she pretty much trashes Fiona and the Rebellion.

But you need more than just courage to have strong will... she's a hedonist who loves being loved.  She enjoys finery and praise and power. 

 

We don't know how much willpower she has, because we never saw her challenged in the story. 

 

Yes, her story arc challenges it... but to really know Vivienne we would have to be able to delve far deeper.  

 

I admit totally that she's strong. 

 

I mean... even without Solas or Dorian's training - which would both be superior, she not only holds her own but gains their admiration.  So she's clearly strong.

 

But I don't think if she were stripped of all the things she holds important that she would be willing to commit to such a rigorous test.  I'd be interested to know what the devs think. 

NOTE:  As much as I hate him.  Solas could do it easily.  He's got the willpower that comes from belief.  

[Big I]

The point I'm making with Vivienne is that had she not been born a mage, she very likely could have been a Seeker or Templar with her viewpoint on magic. Not every mage adheres to the victim status, in fact if you ask her in Haven after first recruiting her, she pretty much trashes Fiona and the Rebellion.

 

Vivienne's parents were traders from Rivain. According to one of Cole's clairvoyant flashes she was poor before she was sent to the Circle, I assume living on the street in the Free Marches. If she wasn't a mage she would likely have been condemned to poverty, or at best grown up in Rivain with a very different view on magic. Magic saved Vivienne, or at least the Circle did. It's just a shame she's so afraid of it (as evidenced by her reaction to the Fade in Here Lies The Abyss).

[Kakistos_]

A major reason behind mage/everybody woes is the inability for culture at large (inside Circles and out) to accept the dual nature that Circles are both a learning institution and a security precaution. In the former sense, it didn't fail in its purpose; in the latter... yeah, they loosened the reigns too much. I'm sure some sort of happy balance could have been found had BoomBoom McMissesCat not set up us the "balm" and forced conflict.

 

The Circle did not fail as a security precaution either. Mages of Rivain have always had a unique role in society as their skills and teachings, predating the Circle and Chantry, are used to benefit their people.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The Circle did not fail as a security precaution either. Mages of Rivain have always had a unique role in society as their skills and teachings, predating the Circle and Chantry, are used to benefit their people.

Of course , creating an abomnations and intercourse with dangerous beings that many times caused havock for sake of insane traditions is totally safe, lets call it "natural disaster" and pretend it didn't happen .  

[Xerrai]

The Circle did not fail as a security precaution either. Mages of Rivain have always had a unique role in society as their skills and teachings, predating the Circle and Chantry, are used to benefit their people.

I kinda put the Rivaini seers right next to the Avaar shamans in this case. They have a culture that despite its lack of circles, has its own methods of reducing the chances of a mage becoming an abomination. The Cirlce is not always the answer.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I kinda put the Rivaini seers right next to the Avaar shamans in this case. They have a culture that despite its lack of circles, has its own methods of reducing the chances of a mage becoming an abomination. The Cirlce is not always the answer.

Yeah, it worked well considering in that five minutes we go and explore their culture we learn they have caused world-threat and they did it actually twice, is just beggs to ask question what other skeletons one would find in their closet upon closer inspection .

[Xerrai]

Of course , creating an abomnations and intercourse with dangerous beings that many times caused havock for sake of insane traditions is totally safe, lets call it "natural disaster" and pretend it didn't happen .  

I'm fairly sure if abominations were as much of a problem as you think they are, Rivain wouldn't even have a culture that revered the seers in the first place. The lack of fear and the prevalence of respect for the seers of Rivain imply that the dangers that the Chantry/Cirlce claim is constant without "proper" Circle teachings are held in check by their own methods.  

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'm fairly sure if abominations were as much of a problem as you think they are, Rivain wouldn't even have a culture that revered the seers in the first place. The lack of fear and the prevalence of respect for the seers of Rivain imply that the dangers that the Chantry/Cirlce claim is constant without "proper" Circle teachings are held in check by their own methods.  

Not rly, source of that is that Rivaini are pretty much are brainwashed to percive disasters caused by mages as "natural disasters" and their practices concerning mages are considering to be tradition, what is even worse than dwarves traditions as they completely disregard self-preservation and safety in order to follow insane traditions.

[Xerrai]

Not rly, source of that is that Rivaini are pretty much are brainwashed to percive disasters caused by mages as "natural disasters" and their practices concerning mages are considering to be tradition, what is even worse than dwarves traditions as they completely disregard self-preservation and safety in order to follow insane traditions.

I understand that they place value on traditions, but I do not recall a codex entry where it even implies that they disregard self-preservation and safety (apart form possession--but then, the avvar handle that relatively fine). I do recall that they have culture where the needs of the community is considered of the upmost importance. Thus, I do not find it likely that they completely disregard the safety of others. Their people would have called them out otherwise--if not for themselves, then for others.    

[TheKomandorShepard]

I understand that they place value on traditions, but I do not recall a codex entry where it even implies that they disregard self-preservation and safety (apart form possession--but then, the avvar handle that relatively fine). I do recall that they have culture where the needs of the community is considered of the upmost importance. Thus, I do not find it likely that they completely disregard the safety of others. Their people would have called them out otherwise--if not for themselves, then for others.    

They let run their mages rampant and allow and even want them to become abominations for sake of tradition , it is disregarding safety and self-preservation (nedless to say i already pointed how well this policy worked for Avvars) , but instead getting clue from mages causing havock (like almost everyone else in Thedas) they perceive it as natural disasters and proceed with it anyway. I pretty much have explained why they didn't call them out , however thankfully they were called out and dealt with by seekers once they found out. 

[Phoe77]

Out of curiosity, what is this world threat that Rivain has caused through their allowance of Seers?  I'm not well informed about that area of Thedas.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Out of curiosity, what is this world threat that Rivain has caused through their allowance of Seers?  I'm not well informed about that area of Thedas.

I was speaking about Avvars then , we never get to explore Rivain culture just explained more or less how things work there so we have to yet discover what skeletons they have in their closet, but for certain we know they have them. 

[Xerrai]

They let run their mages rampant and allow and even want them to become abominations for sake of tradition , it is disregarding safety and self-preservation (nedless to say i already pointed how well this policy worked for Avvars) , but instead getting clue from mages causing havock (like almost everyone else in Thedas) they perceive it as natural disasters and proceed with it anyway. I pretty much have explained why they didn't call them out , however thankfully they were called out and dealt with by seekers once they found out. 

Are you referring to the Jaws of Hakkon DLC? The one where we dealt with (as usual) extremists that in no way indicate a norm in Avaar culture? The fact that there are shamans in as many tribes as there are is proof that it can work. It may have failures, but then, so does the Cirlce.

[Xerrai]

I was speaking about Avvars then , we never get to explore Rivain culture just explained more or less how things work there so we have to yet discover what skeletons they have in their closet, but for certain we know they have them. 

Your point? Even the Circles have their secrets (both from Mages and Templars). The Circles are no better than any other institution in that sense.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Are you referring to the Jaws of Hakkon DLC? The one where we dealt with (as usual) extremists that in no way indicate a norm in Avaar culture? The fact that there are shamans in as many tribes as there are is proof that it can work. It may have failures, but then, so does the Cirlce.

Yes. Said "extremists" exist in every culture (that is just human nature) and there is plenty of them needless to point Uldred, Orsino or Jowan and i can give you much more , you know what major difference between Circles and Avvars is that mages are contained within and dealt with quickly without harming population and letting abomnation/mage act their his harmful ideas , we never had to deal with world-threat in case of circles.

 

 

Your point? Even the Circles have their secrets (both from Mages and Templars). The Circles are no better than any other institution in that sense.

As above, circles contain mages not only providing easy way to deal with problem and prevent them from harming population , but also deals with deviation (here with mild success).

 

[Phoe77]

Oh, I see.  Despite similar practices, those two cultures are just about as far removed as they could possibly be.  Even if they weren't, the antagonists in Jaws of Hakkon, as well as their predecessors, seemed to be a fanatical fringe element instead of representing standard practices for the Avvar in general.  If you're going to condemn the Rivaini practices because of the actions of a fanatical group of Avvar that they have no connection to, then what's to stop you from condemning the Circle in southern Thedas for what the Tevinter venatori did?