46 réponses à ce sujet

[DragonSlayer63]

In DAI the combat system was heavily modified in comparison to DA2. One of the modifications was the removal of health regenation while not in combat. The explanation for this was that Bioware wanted even the smaller fights to have some meaning. I understand where the developers are coming from but in my experience it just ends up as an annoyance.

 

Your health doesn't regenerate over time but you can get it back by resting at a camp or fast-travelling. You can also use healing potions, but the amount you can carry is very limited. This is why I found myself constantly revisiting the camps that I had unlocked previously in order to get back to full health and max potions. Exploration in the game became a constant back-and-forth movement as a result of this. I'd have preferred if I had just been able to stack up on healing potions like in DAO/DA2 or have a mage in party use healing spells and have their mana regenerate.

 

One of DAI's biggest features was exploration and I feel that it is a big disservice to the game to have you explore only in small bits because your health is nibbled away by small or medium fights.

 

What are your thoughts? Would you like Bioware to return to the old system with regenerative health?  Could the current system be improved somehow?

[AlanC9]

The trick is to play the game well enough so you don't take any damage in the trash fights.

[DragonKingReborn]

What Alan said.

I would not want a return to the healing situation of Origins or 2, though I wouldn't get too upset about it.

Origins in particular - by far my favourite game of the series - had a completely bonkers healing system which allowed and almost pushed unlimited healing potions on the player. If your greater healing potion was in its - really, really short cool down - no problem, because there were a bunch of other levels of healing potions you could use.

In terms of healing , Inquisition got it just about right, in my opinion. Now, if there weren't such a massive disparity between the trash mobs and the fights where you need to pay attention (on nightmare), then we'd really be in business.

[CorniliuS]

Lack of regenerative health in DAI?
1. On hit: heal 1% of maximum health.
2. Heal 25% of damage taken over 10 seconds.
3. Heal on kill.
Not enough? Play on casual.

[Iakus]

Ah, the "Git gud" crowd.  How lovely...

 

I was willing to try the system out.  I mean, there's plenty of games out there with limited healing available.  Including Bioware games like the first Mass Effect.

 

But you know what?  I agree with OP.  The system was just annoying in this game.  the "health on Kill" rings rapidly become the most valuable items in the game for me.

[arkngt]

I don't think it's an issue at all. You can get access to 12 Healing potions rather early on in the game. That together with Regeneration potions last quite a while. plus basically all sections that are hard have supply caches. I've never used health on kill etc. items - and I've never been frustrated by lack of healing potions. I think it's a rather neat system as it means that you'll have to use health potions somewhat strategically.

[Vastator]

At first I hated the new system. Then I "studied" combat mechanics and learnt how to not rely heavily on health, and using guard and barriers (or the few health regeneration options, like the reaver one) in the most efficient way.

[PapaCharlie9]

Ah, the "Git gud" crowd.  How lovely...

You don't have to git gud. Just craft gud.
 

In terms of healing , Inquisition got it just about right, in my opinion. Now, if there weren't such a massive disparity between the trash mobs and the fights where you need to pay attention (on nightmare), then we'd really be in business.

EDIT: I can't agree with the first part, particularly in the case the OP implies, the initial blind run. Even if it's on Casual, there's too much running back to camp to heal. There are a lot of ways to solve the healing problem after your first run, but during, it's a drag. Particularly for an Explorer type.

I do agree with the second part. It also bugs me that healing is so out-of-whack with respect to average and peak damage done by enemies, particularly for higher XP levels or higher difficulties. Enemies either can't touch you at all or they one-shot you. There's rarely a middle ground. There's no mechanism for dealing with the one-shotters that doesn't lock out the mooks.

The game needs a mechanic that's like Elusive stacks, but they only work if the single-hit damage amount is greater than say 80% of your max health. Smaller hits get through. And if you run your stack down to zero, you are vulnerable to one-shotting. That way, skill will still matter.

Something like Mage's Guardian Spirit, but for all classes, could work too.

[Mlady]

Once you upgrade to 12 potions and create Healing Mist and Regeneration Potions, you find it easier. My first time playing I was annoyed at the inability to heal because it's a pretty common option in games. I used to use it in ME1 too and then they removed it, but after many runs in both games, I found my skills improved enough and I started to use strategies and learn enemy weaknesses and found I hardly needed to heal. Also if you have Barrier, it's pretty easy to get around. Solas is good at constantly using it on your party and Dorian too. Best part I like though is if you die, you can be revived by another party member you take control of, unlike in ME where if you die that's it. Game over.

[arkngt]

I can't agree with this, particularly in the case the OP implies, the initial blind run. Even if it's on Casual, there's too much running back to camp to heal. There are a lot of ways to solve the healing problem after your first run, but during, it's a drag. Particularly for an Explorer type.

 

I can't recall having this issue during my first playthrough and I definitely hadn't git gud then as my builds and equipment sucked (I didn't even craft stuff until the end of the first playthrough). And I am the explorer type.

 

Alternatively, I have a lousy memory about how it was during the first play through, but I've been (and am) frustrated by lots of things in the game and the regenerative health system has never been one of them.

[PhroXenGold]

I feel the current system is much better, though certainly not perfect. As you point out, limiting your total ability to heal, rather than the rate at which you can heal allows the developers to be much more varied in the strength of the opponents you fight. If your health recovers after each fight - either through regeneration, or through being able to cast as many healing spells as you like - then each fight has to be significant enough to take you from full health to zero, else there is no point in bothering to have it as a fight. With the total health constrained by a lack of regeneration and limited health potions, then a fight can still be meaningful even if it can't kill you - it can deplete your health pool, consume your resources, thus making future fights tougher. And overall, I do find it works reasonably well.

 

And of course, if you're finding you're always out of health and potions, you can always turn the difficulty down.

[DragonSlayer63]

It's not that the small fights are difficult. It's that each fight takes away a tiny bit of your health, which feels annoying in the long run because you can't explore as much as you'd like wihtout having to go back and forth to the nearest camp. Going back to a camp and resting and restocking on potions stops me from dying but it takes time that I'd rather spend on exploring and completing quests.

 

If I'm at 50% health, I don't know if I'm going to bump into a very difficult opponent so I'll want to use a healing potion to make sure I don't die. However I don't want to waste my healing potions because that means that I'll have to return the nearest camp. If you run into a high level/difficulty enemy just when you've run out of potions, there's a fair chance you die.

 

I don't like that healing is dependant on potions alone. I'd like to see more diversity.

[Pensieve]

If you have so much trouble with your HP, maybe you should turn the difficulty down.

[Forsythia77]

This is where heal on kill or heal on hit crafting mats come in handy.  I fully admit to charging into things head first and being that mage that draws all the aggro, so I use a lot of heal on kill/heal on hit/% over time heal mats.  Mitigates some of the need for health potions.  1% heal on hit fade touched snofleur is worth the pain in the assed farming needed to get it.  Works well for a mage - especially a necromancer.  You kind of literally never die and it is brilliant.  

[AlanC9]

It's not that the small fights are difficult. It's that each fight takes away a tiny bit of your health, which feels annoying in the long run because you can't explore as much as you'd like wihtout having to go back and forth to the nearest camp. Going back to a camp and resting and restocking on potions stops me from dying but it takes time that I'd rather spend on exploring and completing quests.

If we're only talking about losing a tiny bit of health, that is the design intent. There's supposed to be some tension between what you want to do and what you actually can do. That's how a resource-management game works.

Also note that in a new zone you will often be moving forward towards more health, as you establish new camps and seize keeps.

[Realmzmaster]

It's not that the small fights are difficult. It's that each fight takes away a tiny bit of your health, which feels annoying in the long run because you can't explore as much as you'd like wihtout having to go back and forth to the nearest camp. Going back to a camp and resting and restocking on potions stops me from dying but it takes time that I'd rather spend on exploring and completing quests.

 

If I'm at 50% health, I don't know if I'm going to bump into a very difficult opponent so I'll want to use a healing potion to make sure I don't die. However I don't want to waste my healing potions because that means that I'll have to return the nearest camp. If you run into a high level/difficulty enemy just when you've run out of potions, there's a fair chance you die.

 

I don't like that healing is dependant on potions alone. I'd like to see more diversity.

 

Each fight is suppose to take away a little bit of health. You have to make a decision does the party have enough health to push on or should the party go back and restock. What spells will lengthen the viability of the party? What equipment should the party be on the lookout for to increase viability? If the party crafts equipment what materials should the party be on the outlook for?

[PapaCharlie9]

I don't like that healing is dependant on potions alone. I'd like to see more diversity.

Several posts above have pointed out other ways to heal than potions. The diversity is there. Personally, I think there are too many ways to heal.

Which is why they added the Rub Dirt On It Trial. You can eliminate the potion option, if you want more challenge. That Trial wouldn't exist if the only way you could heal was potions.

[UniformGreyColor]

I don't think it's an issue at all. You can get access to 12 Healing potions rather early on in the game. That together with Regeneration potions last quite a while. plus basically all sections that are hard have supply caches. I've never used health on kill etc. items - and I've never been frustrated by lack of healing potions. I think it's a rather neat system as it means that you'll have to use health potions somewhat strategically.

 

 

If we're only talking about losing a tiny bit of health, that is the design intent. There's supposed to be some tension between what you want to do and what you actually can do. That's how a resource-management game works.

Also note that in a new zone you will often be moving forward towards more health, as you establish new camps and seize keeps.

 

Both of you hit the nail right on the head, couldn't agree more. If we are to take away the strategic need to manage health, you might as well be playing with god mode enabled, and that's not exactly what I consider fun combat.

 

Also, An absolutely huge part of surviving that hasn't been said yet is how you choose to build your characters. By the time I have Unbowed and its upgrade (important when fighting mooks) I am not really taking any kind of significant damage that it is limiting my exploration. War Cry and Challenge are pretty essential in the way I play the game and as long as the enemies are attacking my Tank, the rest of my party is not taking hardly any damage and my tank is putting up guard faster than the enemies are taking it down. Also, heavily investing in the creation tree for mages makes barriers pretty powerful, same goes for Rogues abilities that make enemies miss them like in Subterfuge. Well all else fails, I use tac cam to control everything and this makes for much more efficient combat by my team.

[vbibbi]

Lack of regenerative health in DAI?
1. On hit: heal 1% of maximum health.
2. Heal 25% of damage taken over 10 seconds.
3. Heal on kill.
Not enough? Play on casual.

But this forces players to craft items with those specific properties. First playthrough players aren't going to know the crafting system well, nor which materials provide those bonuses. Plus, how many of those materials are available in the first few zones, when healing is going to be the most necessary?

 

I don't think it should be mandatory to craft or turn the difficulty down in order to avoid returning to camp every fifteen minutes.

 

I don't think it's an issue at all. You can get access to 12 Healing potions rather early on in the game. That together with Regeneration potions last quite a while. plus basically all sections that are hard have supply caches. I've never used health on kill etc. items - and I've never been frustrated by lack of healing potions. I think it's a rather neat system as it means that you'll have to use health potions somewhat strategically.

It takes a few perks before we can increase the number of healing potions and either the empty potion slot has to be regeneration and we can't use tonics or bombs, or we have to unlock the second potion clip to use them. Like crafting, it's dictating how to use the game mechanics to play the game.

 

This is where heal on kill or heal on hit crafting mats come in handy.  I fully admit to charging into things head first and being that mage that draws all the aggro, so I use a lot of heal on kill/heal on hit/% over time heal mats.  Mitigates some of the need for health potions.  1% heal on hit fade touched snofleur is worth the pain in the assed farming needed to get it.  Works well for a mage - especially a necromancer.  You kind of literally never die and it is brilliant.  

We don't have early access to snoufleur skin, do we? We can buy it in the Black Emporium and harvest it from EP and EdL. When the vanilla game came out without the Emporium, wouldn't we have to wait for half the game until we could access these heal on kill mats?

 

Looking at the game from an initial playthrough, it's the Hinterlands which is the zone where we have to keep traveling back to camp to heal. It's the largest zone, we're at the lowest level with the least health and defensive abilities, and the respawn rates are high. It's too early to guarantee we've gained the extra healing potions perk or received mats that allow healing on hit or per kill. And those options, if available, mean that we have to choose that perk over dialogue perks, the lockpicking perk, other perks that we might want earlier on instead of additional potions.

 

It would be better if the respawn rates were decreased. It was frustrating when I was trying to explore a map, gradually lost my health so had to travel back to camp, but then when I returned to the extent of my exploration, all of the enemies had respawned and I was injured again just getting to that point. It was like one step forward two steps back.

 

The healing system really felt like it was intended for the multiplayer side and just left for single player. If Bio felt that the health potion spamming and healing spells was so overpowered in past games, why not keep a mechanic to limit the amount of healing potions (that we could buy/make rather than restock) and have a very long cooldown timer for any healing spells. Why not allow very small healing outside of combat rather than make us return to camp? It's the same reason our abilities were limited to 8. The single player and multiplayer gameplay is identical and the multiplayer tactics took priority.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

The healing system really felt like it was intended for the multiplayer side and just left for single player. If Bio felt that the health potion spamming and healing spells was so overpowered in past games, why not keep a mechanic to limit the amount of healing potions (that we could buy/make rather than restock) and have a very long cooldown timer for any healing spells. Why not allow very small healing outside of combat rather than make us return to camp? It's the same reason our abilities were limited to 8. The single player and multiplayer gameplay is identical and the multiplayer tactics took priority.

I agree with most of your post, but I'm not sure how much of this is really because of multiplayer. I don't think it would have been hard to simply have regenerating health in one but not the other, or even to have regenerating health in multiplayer too. It's actually incredibly annoying not to have any healing in multiplayer as well, and since you can only ever have 2 potions in MP, microtransactions don't help you, so I don't think that's the reason.

 

I honestly think the reason for most of these changes is that Bioware truly thought it would benefit the game somehow, even if I think they're completely off-base and "fixed" what wasn't broken. All they had to do was take DA2's model, with long cooldowns, and maybe add a limit to how many you could carry like it is now, and done. But when does Bioware ever make small adjustments when they can totally revamp something, right?

 

Anyway, the reason they say they didn't want regenerating health is just as flawed as why they limited skills to 8. Having only 8 skills doesn't make the game any more tactical since you don't know what you'll be facing. That means more specialized spells you wouldn't use overly often in DA:O/DA2 are left out in favour of all-round jack-of-all-trades spells that you can use marginally well against anything. It's just frustrating, not tactical, and arbitrarily and artificially limiting.

 

Just like health. Making the party take progressively more damage doesn't make it more tactical, it doesn't add realism. Making you ask yourself whether to keep adventuring or restock is a pointless exercise - the smart thing to do is obvious, but it just adds a stupidly large amount of busywork and tedium to the game. Backtracking. Encountering the same enemies you just fought who've instantly respawned. It's not fun.

 

Yet another reason it's not fun is that since it's designed this way, almost all of the encounters are designed to be non-lethal, which is boring. And it's also even more tedious because you just have to fight through oceans of enemies who aren't a challenge. (Don't even get me started on enemies' obscenely large health pools despite not being difficult to kill.)

 

And all of this is compounded when you're on a map like the Forbidden Oasis, where the terrain navigation is terrible and there are only 2 camps. Ugh. So much backtracking.

[Wulfram]

I don't mind that they tried it, but I do feel it ended up being more of a hassle than anything interesting.

[CorniliuS]

But this forces players to craft items with those specific properties. First playthrough players aren't going to know the crafting system well, nor which materials provide those bonuses. Plus, how many of those materials are available in the first few zones, when healing is going to be the most necessary?

 

We don't have early access to snoufleur skin, do we? We can buy it in the Black Emporium and harvest it from EP and EdL. When the vanilla game came out without the Emporium, wouldn't we have to wait for half the game until we could access these heal on kill mats?

 

Looking at the game from an initial playthrough, it's the Hinterlands which is the zone where we have to keep traveling back to camp to heal. It's the largest zone, we're at the lowest level with the least health and defensive abilities, and the respawn rates are high. It's too early to guarantee we've gained the extra healing potions perk or received mats that allow healing on hit or per kill. And those options, if available, mean that we have to choose that perk over dialogue perks, the lockpicking perk, other perks that we might want earlier on instead of additional potions.

 

Well it's not the quantum physics you pick up material, you read what it does and voila you know. This is most basic mechanics, all rpg's using this system. I started to play this game in 2014 and I remember, yes it was hard for the first 3-4 levels, some areas I had to avoid entirely. Then you travel to Val Royeaux buy there decent schematics and start crafting, after that I had no problem exploring Hinterlands. Now we have Black Emporium and people still complain about healing? Cotton, Samite dropping from mages and bandits from the start. Snoufleur skin you can farm in Exalted Plains this map available immediately after player reaches Skyhold. Fade-Touched Iron and Paragon's Luster you can farm everywhere. Perhaps someone should pay more attention to the game he or she playing.

 

 

I don't think it should be mandatory to craft or turn the difficulty down in order to avoid returning to camp every fifteen minutes.

I think it should be mandatory.
 

[AlanC9]

But this forces players to craft items with those specific properties. First playthrough players aren't going to know the crafting system well, nor which materials provide those bonuses. Plus, how many of those materials are available in the first few zones, when healing is going to be the most necessary?

This sounds more like an argument for better documentation or a different Hinterlands design. I'm not really comfortable saying that we need to limit the entire game design based on what first-time players can do early in their first playthroughs. I mean, we don't want a game with no learning curve whatsoever, do we?
 

I don't think it should be mandatory to craft or turn the difficulty down in order to avoid returning to camp every fifteen minutes.

How many minutes would be appropriate on Normal?

Anyway, that's not too difficult. You just need to understand Threat and Guard, and stay away from enemies you can't handle. The only time this is difficult in the early game is when trying to get to Dennet, since that path runs right through the main mage-templar conflict zone. I liked that fine, but I want my CRPGs to be harder than they typically are, so YMMV.

The healing system really felt like it was intended for the multiplayer side and just left for single player.

I don't see it, but that's because I'm one of those curmudgeons who was ranting about how NWN had dumbed RPGs down and KotOR was far worse. Back in the day all CRPGs worked like DAI.

[vbibbi]

Well it's not the quantum physics you pick up material, you read what it does and voila you know. This is most basic mechanics, all rpg's using this system. I started to play this game in 2014 and I remember, yes it was hard for the first 3-4 levels, some areas I had to avoid entirely. Then you travel to Val Royeaux buy there decent schematics and start crafting, after that I had no problem exploring Hinterlands. Now we have Black Emporium and people still complain about healing? Cotton, Samite dropping from mages and bandits from the start. Snoufleur skin you can farm in Exalted Plains this map available immediately after player reaches Skyhold. Fade-Touched Iron and Paragon's Luster you can farm everywhere. Perhaps someone should pay more attention to the game he or she playing.

 

I think it should be mandatory.
 

Why does your argument have to rely on claiming I'm not paying attention to the game? People can have different opinions even with the same level of knowledge of the game. Your opinion is not fact, it's opinion.

 

I am someone who does not enjoy crafting. I think it's boring, time consuming, the UI was horribly designed, and I enjoyed games where looted equipment was unique and meaningful. Your opinion sounds to be that crafting is the method of dealing with the new health system, so those who don't like the new health system and don't want to be forced to craft items are what, not allowed to want a different system?

 

Since I would rather play the game as I want and not make a beeline for the EP to get snoufleur or mine paragon's luster until I get the necessary materials, your solution is not ideal. Plus, I don't craft enough to remember which items provide healing and which schematics are best to optimize the healing. I don't want to have to rely on crafting to deal with the limited healing mechanics.

[vbibbi]

This sounds more like an argument for better documentation or a different Hinterlands design. I'm not really comfortable saying that we need to limit the entire game design based on what first-time players can do early in their first playthroughs. I mean, we don't want a game with no learning curve whatsoever, do we?
 

How many minutes would be appropriate on Normal?

Anyway, that's not too difficult. You just need to understand Threat and Guard, and stay away from enemies you can't handle. The only time this is difficult in the early game is when trying to get to Dennet, since that path runs right through the main mage-templar conflict zone. I liked that fine, but I want my CRPGs to be harder than they typically are, so YMMV.
 

I would argue that the first playthrough is going to be the most important one, because if someone isn't enjoying their first playthrough, there aren't going to be subsequent playthroughs. Not all players play a game in the hopes of improving their use of the system in subsequent playthroughs. I personally don't want a steep learning curve, I want to enjoy the first playthrough and use others to explore story choices I didn't pick the first time.

 

Threat would be a lot easier to use if there were actually tactics. As it is, I would have to switch to a warrior character, select threat generating abilities, then go back to the other character. It's micromanagement on a consistent level, which drags out the gameplay for me.