129 réponses à ce sujet

[German Soldier]

@German Soldier:  Firstly, from a purely scientific viewpoint it is impossible to know if anything is immortal.  You would either have to 1) live forever or 2) at least have a machine that runs indefinitely without ever breaking or ceasing to measure the lifespan of the creature.   

 

And then, of course... you can never reach immortal (which is, infinity) - because once the universe ends, so too would immortality.  But, what limited perception of "immortality" means is "a really long time".

 

It's funny, you say death "only serves biological evolution" and yet you wouldn't be here without evolution... you would be, at best, a microscopic organism.  So, if you value your individual life, at all, you value the death of everything that came before you. 

 

And lastly, why would immortality have any more or less value?  Because you decided it did?  You're just one of a multitude of upjumped apes having no relevancy to the scope of something so vast as the universe.  The "value" you're speaking of is unknowable by any individual man.  

 

Better to concern yourself with personal value.  To you, it seems you may fear death, or at the very least be embittered by the idea of it.  I cannot stop you from desiring immortality, it's endemic to the species to search for it in everything from Taoist alchemy, death/rebirth cycles, heavenly kingdoms and transhumanism.  

 

But when the self vanishes you realize you are a congealed, sapient piece of the universe which is a part, itself, of whatever reality itself is composed of.  Even when the universe dies, what it is, will become part of what is next - as will you.  

 

But you're speaking on the banal immortality of the flesh when it comes to Solas - that has no intrinsic merit.  

Infinitude is a transcendent and mathematical concept not a physical one and while i noticed that you're adopting a misusing of words by equating a state of immortality to a state of being perpetual which isn't quite the same thing,i don't understand as for why a very much longer life i.e prolonged youth should  diminish in it's value.

Afterall we are talking about beings that can theoretically live if the conditions will permit it until the end of the universe(also you're assuming that the universe end rather than simply start a cycle a new),which means billion of years of life and this is in itself a great gift since such beings can learn and mature much more than mortal beings.

 

 

[Xerrai]

While that's certainly the case in economics, with most goods and services, the philosophical is a different matter entirely. Each new day will have new things, and extends life, which makes each new day valuable. Having no more days marks the end of life and every memory of days prior. Effectively erasing them for the one who perceived them. I think the main concept of this discussion is oblivion. It reduces life to a zero sum game. Pointless. You are arguing from the standpoint of being alive. Oblivion takes away all value. So yes, eternal life is what gives these fleeting days any value at all.

 

 

Cole describes it as the wolf chews its own leg off to escape the trap. Not exactly a victory. And for all we know the evanuris are safe and sound wherever they are, patiently waiting for the Veil to drop, and when it does they will emerge just as powerful as ever. You like to post about immortal beings? Well, what Solas did is nothing more to the evanuris than the casting of Ice Wall in a narrow corridor. When it runs out... look out, because here they come.

 

He simply didn't get caught, and that's mainly because there was no evidence of his involvement in the events of the conclave. Not the same as him tricking the Inquisition though. You can go through the whole game being suspicious of Solas and not believing anything he says, but there is no evidence for you to act against him.

 

According to Solas, his agent failed to get the passphrase from Briala, and so he had to "override the magic personally", which was actually Flemeth's doing, and she willingly gave this to Solas. Then after Solas had it, the Viddasala found a way to activate the eluvians and moved her agents in to take the various elvhen locations. Solas needed the Inquisition to get rid of them all.

 

You have legends. There is no proof that they are correct. All those things could have happened in the Fade, meaning, imagination. I don't remember anything about Elgar'nan using titans to build anything. There is a codex stating that many of his servants cut away at a mountain for 1,000 days or something like that to make a statue in his honor, but that's it.

 

Ghilin'nan may have created creatures, but it's likely this power came from the Fade and used spiritual energy. It's also possible that these creatures only existed in the Fade, thus reducing them to mere imaginings.

 

Mythal slayed one titan that we know of, which shouldn't be that difficult. The Inquisitor can destroy one of the titan's guardians, and theoretically if he had just kept on doing this at various points inside the titan, then he could have slayed a titan as well even without the benefits of Fade energy to enhance his powers as Mythal would have had.

 

Andruil needed to craft armor that would allow her to go there, and even after that she still went mad trying. Mythal had to put her back in line.

 

Solas can petrify non-mage Qunari at will. We don't know if his ability works on other races or on other mages. So what if he has great knowledge? He hasn't made good use of it so far.

 

Falon'Din is said to be able to walk in the Fade physically. We don't know what significance that has yet.

That whole bit about Flemeth is pure theory. Apart from interacting with one eluvian, where did that bit come from? As far as we know, we know that Solas--who now has his knowledge plus his power increase--claimed he overrided the eluvian network personally. As we know, the keys for the eluvians could be both knowledge as well as power (which we know Solas has). The eluvians Briala controlled were accessed via pass phrase. How he overrode this magic is anyone's guess. But saying that it was Flemeth's doing is pure speculation.

 

Same goes for every other qualifying things about the Evanuris "only imagining it". In world where the veil did not exist, imagining it would be the same as making it reality. Making that whole point moot.

 

The Titan Guardian the Inquisitor encounters is from slumbering/weak Titan that has spent a great many years being inactive. One that was possibly effected by the severing of the fade and reality like everything else. For all we know, a truly 'healthy' Titan will make the Titan we face look like a mere walk in the park in comparison. But neither of us have no real proof to confirm.

 

Andruil....just as convoluted. We know she did indeed craft armor from he void, but we don't know if it was mandatory to enter it. Given that the void held the powerful things she so wanted to hunt, it wouldn't be too surpsing that the armor was merely a power boost. But again, not enough proof to confirm.

 

Now the Falon'Din part? Totally correct. Legends do say that he was able to walk in the fade, but we don't know what that even means. For all we know it could be a metaphor.

 

Now to the part where you said Solas needed the Inquisition to get rid of the Viddasala.

-trespasser dialogue about the qunari-

Inquisitor: So you let us do your dirty work

Solas: The mistake was yours to fix, Inquisitor.

[That last line references how the qunari were infiltrating and using the inquisition and its resources/connections to further their own bomb-every-national-leader agenda.]

 

From what we have seen, Solas by himself has enough power to take on qunari forces single handedly (seeing how he petrified people with a thought...). We also know that at this particular point in time, he has several agents planted in both the Inquisiton and in their own (presumed) base of operations. If he did anything worth a damn in his two year absence, then he would have at least moderately bolsted his numbers (but no way to confirm this) in some manner. So I say he was definitely equipped to handle the qunari threat.

But he chose not to. Not directly at any rate. He would conserve his forces, while at the same time lure you to him in order to remove the Inquisitor's mark.

[Dai Grepher]

That whole bit about Flemeth is pure theory. Apart from interacting with one eluvian, where did that bit come from? As far as we know, we know that Solas--who now has his knowledge plus his power increase--claimed he overrided the eluvian network personally. As we know, the keys for the eluvians could be both knowledge as well as power (which we know Solas has). The eluvians Briala controlled were accessed via pass phrase. How he overrode this magic is anyone's guess. But saying that it was Flemeth's doing is pure speculation.

From what we the players know, Flemeth had an eluvian open and was sending something through before Solas got there. Then Solas walked up and killed Flemeth. Her energy went into the eluvian and Solas' eyes glowed. The eluvian stayed open even after Flemeth died. This indicates that she opened it for him.

As for overriding the passphrase, if Solas did this for Briala, then why didn't he do this with the Qunari as well? I think Solas' "override the magic personally" is his lie to conceal the meeting with Flemeth from the Inquisitor.

Same goes for every other qualifying things about the Evanuris "only imagining it". In world where the veil did not exist, imagining it would be the same as making it reality. Making that whole point moot.

But that would make the claim that the Inquisitor wouldn't be able to defeat a single evanuris moot also, which is what I was replying to. If the Veil is absent, then the Inquisitor might be as powerful as the evanuris, if not more powerful. Also, the memories in the Vir Dirthara indicate that things of the Fade can't exist in the real world. Or at least not in the same way they do in the Fade. So even if some imagined creature was created in the Fade, there is no proof that it would be able to survive in the real world.

The Titan Guardian the Inquisitor encounters is from slumbering/weak Titan that has spent a great many years being inactive. One that was possibly effected by the severing of the fade and reality like everything else. For all we know, a truly 'healthy' Titan will make the Titan we face look like a mere walk in the park in comparison. But neither of us have no real proof to confirm.

Maybe, but being able to enter a titan's body is in itself a great advantage. The titan cannot attack with it's full mass. It must wage an internal war using guardians, which are stationary creatures. Mythal's greatest advantage in that battle was likely her mobility (i.e. keeping a distance, moving to avoid danger, flight, etc.).

Andruil....just as convoluted. We know she did indeed craft armor from he void, but we don't know if it was mandatory to enter it. Given that the void held the powerful things she so wanted to hunt, it wouldn't be too surpsing that the armor was merely a power boost. But again, not enough proof to confirm.

She made it so she could go there at all. Even then the Void twisted her mind and made her shout things that should have remained forgotten, and she brought plagues to her lands. Mythal had to step it and help her, which indicates she would have destroyed herself.

Now to the part where you said Solas needed the Inquisition to get rid of the Viddasala.
-trespasser dialogue about the qunari-
Inquisitor: So you let us do your dirty work
Solas: The mistake was yours to fix, Inquisitor.
[That last line references how the qunari were infiltrating and using the inquisition and its resources/connections to further their own bomb-every-national-leader agenda.]

Yeah? And? Solas was full of it. That wasn't our mistake to fix. That's just his biased opinion. And how is them using the eluvians, which supposedly he controls, not his mistake to fix? The only reason Viddasala could even attempt her foolish little plan was because she had access to various eluvians around southern Thedas. As for spies infiltrating, that was happening everywhere, not just the Inquisition. Denerim, Val Royeaux, etc. That had nothing to do with the Inquisition. Finding spies planting bombs isn't the same as clearing elvhen ruins of Qunari because Solas can't be bothered to. Solas is just spouting nonsense. The Inquisitor is right to call him out on it.

From what we have seen, Solas by himself has enough power to take on qunari forces single handedly (seeing how he petrified people with a thought...). We also know that at this particular point in time, he has several agents planted in both the Inquisiton and in their own (presumed) base of operations. If he did anything worth a damn in his two year absence, then he would have at least moderately bolsted his numbers (but no way to confirm this) in some manner. So I say he was definitely equipped to handle the qunari threat.
But he chose not to. Not directly at any rate. He would conserve his forces, while at the same time lure you to him in order to remove the Inquisitor's mark.

Or, he could have petrified every Qunari he came across then just ambushed the Inquisitor. No, he needed the Inquisitor to defeat the Qunari for him. There must have been a limit to his petrification power. And I'll bet he wasn't able to use it on Saarebas, or at least not without damaging one severely first.

If he could have taken the Qunari by himself, then why did he awaken elvhen spirits to fight them? Why did he corrupt the librarians in the Vir Dirthara so they would attack them?

[Aren]

But that would make the claim that the Inquisitor wouldn't be able to defeat a single evanuris moot also, which is what I was replying to. If the Veil is absent, then the Inquisitor might be as powerful as the evanuris, if not more powerful. Also, the memories in the Vir Dirthara indicate that things of the Fade can't exist in the real world. Or at least not in the same way they do in the Fade. So even if some imagined creature was created in the Fade, there is no proof that it would be able to survive in the real world.


 

The Inquisitor lost against Solas in Trespasser if the Inquisitor try to attack he is defeated and he could have just as easily petrified the protagonist.

Flemeth was more powerful than the Inquisitor and she is just a wisp of an Evanuris.

Assuming that an Evanuris is equal or even more weak than a mortal is illogical.

If the veil is absent you're dead they are the only one who gain a benefit in virtu of being ancient elves.

[Dai Grepher]

The Inquisitor lost against Solas in Trespasser if the Inquisitor try to attack he is defeated and he could have just as easily petrified the protagonist.
Flemeth was more powerful than the Inquisitor and she is just a wisp of an Evanuris.
Assuming that an Evanuris is equal or even more weak than a mortal is illogical.
If the veil is absent you're dead they are the only one who gain a benefit in virtu of being ancient elves.

That's because Solas allows the mark to malfunction, thus causing the Inquisitor great pain.

We don't know if the petrification would have worked on the Inquisitor. So that's an unknown.

Flemeth's ability against the Inquisitor is never demonstrated. Morrigan can be used to knock the Inquisitor down, but that's it.

I didn't assume they were. I wrote that we don't know how the Inquisitor would measure up if he had as much access to the Fade as the evanuris did. Also, the evanuris are mortal as well.

Not necessarily. Just because you can't perceive a few things in the Crossroads doesn't mean you can't tap into the Fade's energy.

[Aren]

That's because Solas allows the mark to malfunction, thus causing the Inquisitor great pain.

We don't know if the petrification would have worked on the Inquisitor. So that's an unknown.

Flemeth's ability against the Inquisitor is never demonstrated. Morrigan can be used to knock the Inquisitor down, but that's it.

I didn't assume they were. I wrote that we don't know how the Inquisitor would measure up if he had as much access to the Fade as the evanuris did. Also, the evanuris are mortal as well.

Not necessarily. Just because you can't perceive a few things in the Crossroads doesn't mean you can't tap into the Fade's energy.

You're making assumptions and comparing gods mages to mortals,beings that were worshipped because were clearly the most powerful of their age and lived and trained for thousands of years with mere mortals.

Solas could have killed the Inquisitor he did not to not spread chaos,his ability can work on everyone the Inquisitor is not immune to it no one is,Flemeth did not even needed to fight to defeat the Inquisitor and the others Evanuris are supposed to be  even more powerful than Soals.

Ancient elves are the only one suited to tap the energy of the fade,as Solas said without the veil everyone dies.

[Dai Grepher]

You're making assumptions and comparing gods mages to mortals,beings that were worshipped because were clearly the most powerful of their age and lived and trained for thousands of years with mere mortals.

You are assuming they are god mages. My Hero is the King of Ferelden. Does his being king and commanding the loyalty of a million subjects have anything to do with his strength or skill?
 

Solas could have killed the Inquisitor he did not to not spread chaos,

I don't argue that fact. I'm just pointing out that his ability to kill the Inquisitor in that single instance was due to the fact that the mark was causing injury to the Inquisitor. Had the Inquisitor been in control of the anchor, he may have been able to beat Solas.
 

his ability can work on everyone the Inquisitor is not immune to it no one is,

Do you have any proof of this? Show me the petrified human, dwarf, or elf.
 

Flemeth did not even needed to fight to defeat the Inquisitor and the others Evanuris are supposed to be  even more powerful than Soals.

We never get the chance to see if Flemeth can defeat the Inquisitor, because at most the Inquisitor will only make one false move, get knocked down, and then choose not to try any other attack. Yes, the evanuris are more powerful than Solas. So what? The Inquisitor could be more powerful than Solas.
 

Ancient elves are the only one suited to tap the energy of the fade,as Solas said without the veil everyone dies.

Proof that only the ancient elvhen can tap the energy of the Fade? Rift Mages can do it too, and my Inquisitor is a Rift Mage. Solas only said that the world would die in the raw chaos of a world with no Veil. He is only guessing that people would not be able to adapt to his world. He is likely underestimating people again.

[Dorrieb]

While that's certainly the case in economics, with most goods and services, the philosophical is a different matter entirely. Each new day will have new things, and extends life, which makes each new day valuable. Having no more days marks the end of life and every memory of days prior. Effectively erasing them for the one who perceived them. I think the main concept of this discussion is oblivion. It reduces life to a zero sum game. Pointless. You are arguing from the standpoint of being alive. Oblivion takes away all value. So yes, eternal life is what gives these fleeting days any value at all.

 

Only a nihilist would see it that way. Consider the sunset: you might notice it now and then, if it happens to be particularly pretty, and you might even be moved by it, but if you knew that it was your last, because you were going to be hanged at dawn, then that sunset, no matter how ordinary it might seem to others, would be the most beautiful and life-affirming sight you could ever behold, and you would experience that moment eternally as a feeling of ultimate joy. Those moments are denied to the immortal: they can't even experience a moment as if it were their last, because even the possibility that it might be has been denied to them.

 

You speak of memories taken away by oblivion? From the outside it might seem that way, but from the perspective of the mortal, every moment is eternal. Mortality transcends time. It is the immortal who is condemned to an eternity of oblivion, never able to experience any single moment with the same transcendent joy as if it were their last, because none of them will ever be.

 

An immortal would forever wonder, 'What is the point? Of me, of everything?' while the mortals around him found the point in everything. It's this last cigarette before the firing squad, it's one last kiss from my grandchildren, it's the bird singing in the tree, it's the colours refracted by the sun through the hospital window, it's the bug crawling on my leg, it's everything and it's awful and beautiful and perfect and it was all worthwhile.

 

Economics? Pft.

[straykat]

An immortal would forever wonder, 'What is the point? Of me, of everything?' while the mortals around him found the point in everything. It's this last cigarette before the firing squad, it's one last kiss from my grandchildren, it's the bird singing in the tree, it's the colours refracted by the sun through the hospital window, it's the bug crawling on my leg, it's everything and it's awful and beautiful and perfect and it was all worthwhile.

 

Economics? Pft.

 

I would agree if I was one of these minor deities/beings who are immortal, like maybe the Elven gods? I doubt an actual "creator/maker" entity asks such questions. It's a whole different paradigm, being the creator of something (let alone everything).

 

But what do I know? I'm not immortal.

[Xerrai]

From what we the players know, Flemeth had an eluvian open and was sending something through before Solas got there. Then Solas walked up and killed Flemeth. Her energy went into the eluvian and Solas' eyes glowed. The eluvian stayed open even after Flemeth died. This indicates that she opened it for him.

As for overriding the passphrase, if Solas did this for Briala, then why didn't he do this with the Qunari as well? I think Solas' "override the magic personally" is his lie to conceal the meeting with Flemeth from the Inquisitor.

Not likely.

An open eluvian is simply that--an open eluvian. Unless we get confirmation that the eluvian was 'special' in some way (like pass phrase protected, or under the will of mythal), then that eluvian could have simply been opened by knowledge/power. Which Solas would have likely been able to do himself (minus perhaps, the power part). She may have opened it for him, but that in no way implies that she has innate ownership of the eluvian network--just knowledge on how to use it.

 

Now overriding the qunari passphrase. It is unknown if the qunari were using passphrases at all. What we do know is that they were studying the eluvians, and as implied by the artifacts in Darvaraad, were hoarding both knowledge and power to do so. In this sense, they too could have no innate ownership of the eluvians, and are simply trying to garner the know-how.

But as we know at the end of Tresspaser, with the Qunari gone, Solas and his agents are now the only ones capable and knowledgeable about the eluvians to make proper use of them.

 

Now for you thinking it was a lie? Well...your opinion. No reason for or against it.

 

But that would make the claim that the Inquisitor wouldn't be able to defeat a single evanuris moot also, which is what I was replying to. If the Veil is absent, then the Inquisitor might be as powerful as the evanuris, if not more powerful. Also, the memories in the Vir Dirthara indicate that things of the Fade can't exist in the real world. Or at least not in the same way they do in the Fade. So even if some imagined creature was created in the Fade, there is no proof that it would be able to survive in the real world.
 

In fact the comparison of legends to evanuris to Inquisitor has already been made. Powerful/exceptional people get confused as beyond-mortal legends time and time again. But the Evanuris? I hope you that they are essentially just as, if not more powerful than Mythal. Who even when killed, still has the capability to come back, has shown an actual capability of walking into the fade (as shown with the Keiran cutscene) and can turn into a dragon--something which even Morrigan needed the well of sorrows to accomplish.

But yeah, sure. I'll say the Inquisitor has a fighting chance (after all the champion beat dragons and so have we). But as much power? Certainly not.

 

Now to the imagined creatures. You are assuming that they are, in fact imagined, and not created in he real world. Which in and of itself is a stretch. We know Ghilan'nain does have the affinity to create 'real' creations (i.e the Halla), so you trying to debunk it by saying "well they are just imaginary" is just grasping at straws. Now if they were purely in the fade? Sure. Or rather, maybe. As you said so yourself, they may exist but not in the same way. Just as mortals are said to not be able to survive in the fade (which we know we can), then I don't see a reason why the reverse is not possible as well.

 

 

She made it so she could go there at all. Even then the Void twisted her mind and made her shout things that should have remained forgotten, and she brought plagues to her lands. Mythal had to step it and help her, which indicates she would have destroyed herself.

Again, you are assuming things. The codex said nothing about the armor being a mandatory perquisite of going into the void. If anything, its first mentioning of the armor being in the second paragraph instead of the first (where it first said she began to hunt the forgotten ones in the abyss), is implied she went to the void first then acquired the armor. Perhaps the armor gave her resistance to the void, but again, not a mandatory perquisite.

 

Yeah? And? Solas was full of it. That wasn't our mistake to fix. That's just his biased opinion. And how is them using the eluvians, which supposedly he controls, not his mistake to fix? The only reason Viddasala could even attempt her foolish little plan was because she had access to various eluvians around southern Thedas. As for spies infiltrating, that was happening everywhere, not just the Inquisition. Denerim, Val Royeaux, etc. That had nothing to do with the Inquisition. Finding spies planting bombs isn't the same as clearing elvhen ruins of Qunari because Solas can't be bothered to. Solas is just spouting nonsense. The Inquisitor is right to call him out on it.

Much like yours is a biased opinion, no? And he didn't control all of the eluvians at the time. If Solas is to be believed (unless you claim he was lying again) The qunari came upon that section of the eluvian network independently, and was in no way part of his section of the eluvian network in way Briala's former labyrinth was. Again, those eluvians were most likely accessed by knowledge and power, something which any person with the proper tools could manage. He only gained control of the eluvians after the qunari were forcefully expunged.

And it did so have to do with the Inquisition. Hiding gaatlok barrel in manifests, having accsess to Inquisition resources and intelligence, having eyes in one of the most powerful organizations in Thedas. The Inquisition was the main reason they even got into the Winter Palace.

In comparison, the fault for the Qunari threat lies more with the Inquisition and the numerous organization in the known world, not Solas's spies. Solas even went through the trouble of easing the Inquisitor's path when they lured him/her into the crossroads.

 

Or, he could have petrified every Qunari he came across then just ambushed the Inquisitor. No, he needed the Inquisitor to defeat the Qunari for him. There must have been a limit to his petrification power. And I'll bet he wasn't able to use it on Saarebas, or at least not without damaging one severely first.

If he could have taken the Qunari by himself, then why did he awaken elvhen spirits to fight them? Why did he corrupt the librarians in the Vir Dirthara so they would attack them?

See above as to why he awoke spirits^. To ease the passage of the Inquisitor or otherwise put strain on the qunari should the Inquisitor fail. All while he conserves his own forces so that there are minimal expenditures.

 

I would say that it was for "story reasons" that the Inquisitor had to deal with the threat and not Solas. But ok, lets assume he had limits. From the cut scene with solas, there are no less than 23+ petrified qunari. A bit a of a high limit, wouldn't you say?

Unless you are implying that Mythal was weaker than the saarebas, then Solas would have been able to take him with or without his limits.

[German Soldier]

You are assuming they are god mages. My Hero is the King of Ferelden. Does his being king and commanding the loyalty of a million subjects have anything to do with his strength or skill?


I don't argue that fact. I'm just pointing out that his ability to kill the Inquisitor in that single instance was due to the fact that the mark was causing injury to the Inquisitor. Had the Inquisitor been in control of the anchor, he may have been able to beat Solas.


Do you have any proof of this? Show me the petrified human, dwarf, or elf.


We never get the chance to see if Flemeth can defeat the Inquisitor, because at most the Inquisitor will only make one false move, get knocked down, and then choose not to try any other attack. Yes, the evanuris are more powerful than Solas. So what? The Inquisitor could be more powerful than Solas.


Proof that only the ancient elvhen can tap the energy of the Fade? Rift Mages can do it too, and my Inquisitor is a Rift Mage. Solas only said that the world would die in the raw chaos of a world with no Veil. He is only guessing that people would not be able to adapt to his world. He is likely underestimating people again.

Your hero may be even the emperor of Orlais he does not stand a chance against beings who have thousands of years of experience and the power to destroy by themselves the entire world.
Solas said that they were able to do that,the anchor is power of Solas the Inquisitor was not suited for it and in fact was dying because of it.
On a serious note Evanuris are on another league and you are hoping that a mortal would be able to even touch them?
The HoF was so weak that needed full support to beat the archdemon,an Evanuris would have wiped out the horde single handendly just ad Solas killed all those Qunari without efforts.

[Dai Grepher]

Only a nihilist would see it that way.

Except I'm no nihilist. So...

Consider the sunset: you might notice it now and then, if it happens to be particularly pretty, and you might even be moved by it, but if you knew that it was your last, because you were going to be hanged at dawn, then that sunset, no matter how ordinary it might seem to others, would be the most beautiful and life-affirming sight you could ever behold, and you would experience that moment eternally as a feeling of ultimate joy.

And what good would that do me once I die and my soul ceases to exist? I will have no memory of that great joy. This is why existing after death for eternity is necessary to make life have any meaning, so you can remember it.

Those moments are denied to the immortal: they can't even experience a moment as if it were their last, because even the possibility that it might be has been denied to them.

How has the thought been denied to them? They can't even imagine the prospect simply because they can't die? How does that work? And even if that's true. So what? They can't have a strong emotional reaction to thoughts related to death. Big deal. They can still appreciate beauty and life, yes?

You speak of memories taken away by oblivion? From the outside it might seem that way, but from the perspective of the mortal, every moment is eternal. Mortality transcends time. It is the immortal who is condemned to an eternity of oblivion, never able to experience any single moment with the same transcendent joy as if it were their last, because none of them will ever be.

That makes no sense. From the mortal's perspective every moment is a moment in length, and when it ends, it is gone. It is past. Only the memory remains. Oblivion ends the memory.

So how is a moment eternal to the mortal? How does mortality transcend time when a mortal life has an end?

The immortal is condemned to an eternity of existence. The mortal who faces oblivion goes to non-existence for eternity.

What is this transcendent joy exactly? What does the emotion of joy transcend? Where does it go?

An immortal would forever wonder, 'What is the point? Of me, of everything?'

That's just your assumption of how an immortal would think. That isn't necessarily the case, especially if that immortal had plenty of new things to do.

while the mortals around him found the point in everything. It's this last ...

But any last thing the person enjoys will just be forgotten when the person dies and ceases to exist. That's the point. You are arguing from the perspective of the here and now, not at the point of oblivion which renders everything before it completely meaningless.

[Dai Grepher]

Not likely.
An open eluvian is simply that--an open eluvian. Unless we get confirmation that the eluvian was 'special' in some way (like pass phrase protected, or under the will of mythal), then that eluvian could have simply been opened by knowledge/power. Which Solas would have likely been able to do himself (minus perhaps, the power part). She may have opened it for him, but that in no way implies that she has innate ownership of the eluvian network--just knowledge on how to use it.

Maybe it was just an open eluvian, like the one Morrigan made. Maybe it was the first in the series of overridden eluvians. In either case, I think she was needed to give Solas access to the Crossroads. Without her, he may not have been able to get to the Crossroads at all. The fact it stays open after her death would imply that the keystone/passphrase was not based on anything of hers, and she intended it to stay open after she died so Solas could use it. Again, whether this is what led to the network being overridden or not, Flemeth/Mythal is responsible for getting Solas to where he is now.

Now overriding the qunari passphrase. It is unknown if the qunari were using passphrases at all. What we do know is that they were studying the eluvians, and as implied by the artifacts in Darvaraad, were hoarding both knowledge and power to do so. In this sense, they too could have no innate ownership of the eluvians, and are simply trying to garner the know-how.
But as we know at the end of Tresspaser, with the Qunari gone, Solas and his agents are now the only ones capable and knowledgeable about the eluvians to make proper use of them.

Except he says that he controls them now that the Qunari are dealt with. If he could override eluvians, then he simply could have done so to isolate the Qunari from the Crossroads worlds. At the Darvaarad we see the first saarebas doing something to a shattered eluvian, and near that spot we find notes with all kinds of detailed sketches about the workings of eluvians. If I remember correctly.

And in the room with the note proving that Viddasala was acting without authorization, we also find more info on the eluvians, and the Inquisitor can say that the Qunari were studying knowledge and power in order to find keys to open various eluvians. So again, this indicates that the Qunari were taking control of eluvians, and Solas could not stop them from doing so except by killing them, which he wanted the Inquisitor to do for him.

In fact the comparison of legends to evanuris to Inquisitor has already been made. Powerful/exceptional people get confused as beyond-mortal legends time and time again. But the Evanuris? I hope you that they are essentially just as, if not more powerful than Mythal. Who even when killed, still has the capability to come back, has shown an actual capability of walking into the fade (as shown with the Keiran cutscene) and can turn into a dragon--something which even Morrigan needed the well of sorrows to accomplish.

Eh... allegedly Morrigan can turn into a dragon because Flemeth passed that knowledge on to her with that whole hand-over-head gesture she did. So Morrigan obtains the dragon form regardless.

Anyway, based on what I've seen, the evanuris ganged up on Mythal and one of them (probably Elgar'nan) betrayed her also. My theory is that Falon'Din began taking slaves from her, as Solas said in his story at the temple. Then Mythal went to Falon'Din's temple to confront him. They fought, and Mythal bloodied him in his own temple, thus forcing him to yield. Again, as Solas states. However, I think Mythal was tricked here. The one she actually bloodied was not Falon'Din, but rather his twin brother Dirthamen who was posing as Falon'Din and took the beat-down for him. Perhaps Dirthamen had to enter uthenera to recover from it. Some time later, Elgar'nan made his move against Mythal and she was able to match him. But with her focus on Elgar'nan and possibly some other lesser evanuris, the real Falon'Din got her in the back. And that is how Solas found her. That's why Solas' last painting outline shows a wolf finding a dragon with a sword in its back.

But yeah, sure. I'll say the Inquisitor has a fighting chance (after all the champion beat dragons and so have we). But as much power? Certainly not.

I guess it depends if gameplay counts as a measure of power. It's possible to solo any part of the game with just about any character build.

Now to the imagined creatures. You are assuming that they are, in fact imagined, and not created in he real world. Which in and of itself is a stretch. We know Ghilan'nain does have the affinity to create 'real' creations (i.e the Halla), so you trying to debunk it by saying "well they are just imaginary" is just grasping at straws. Now if they were purely in the fade? Sure. Or rather, maybe. As you said so yourself, they may exist but not in the same way. Just as mortals are said to not be able to survive in the fade (which we know we can), then I don't see a reason why the reverse is not possible as well.

Because the real world has rules and the Fade has almost none. A memory in the Vir Dirthara explains this. A spirit lectures that the real world has its own rhythm that prevents rocks from rising like mist, and so forth. So if Ghilan'nain's creatures were made to exist in the Fade, then it's possible that in the real world they would not be able to survive even gravity. They might be crushed under their own weight. Or they might not be able to breathe, or eat, or see well enough to avoid danger. The halla, by comparison is rather basic. She may have created that from an idea she got from watching a horse or a deer.

And I'm not saying they are definitely imagined, just that they might be. And it would make sense because things are more easily given form in the Fade.

Again, you are assuming things. The codex said nothing about the armor being a mandatory perquisite of going into the void. If anything, its first mentioning of the armor being in the second paragraph instead of the first (where it first said she began to hunt the forgotten ones in the abyss), is implied she went to the void first then acquired the armor. Perhaps the armor gave her resistance to the void, but again, not a mandatory perquisite.

I'll look at it again next time I play.

Much like yours is a biased opinion, no? And he didn't control all of the eluvians at the time. If Solas is to be believed (unless you claim he was lying again) The qunari came upon that section of the eluvian network independently, and was in no way part of his section of the eluvian network in way Briala's former labyrinth was. Again, those eluvians were most likely accessed by knowledge and power, something which any person with the proper tools could manage. He only gained control of the eluvians after the qunari were forcefully expunged.

I don't see how that's my opinion. I'm observing fact. The Inquisition had nothing to do with the Qunari using eluvians and invading the elvhen temples. And how was that not part of his eluvian network? They were his temples weren't they? And he knew of the Vir Dirthara. Why couldn't he expel them from there himself?

And it did so have to do with the Inquisition. Hiding gaatlok barrel in manifests, having accsess to Inquisition resources and intelligence, having eyes in one of the most powerful organizations in Thedas. The Inquisition was the main reason they even got into the Winter Palace.
In comparison, the fault for the Qunari threat lies more with the Inquisition and the numerous organization in the known world, not Solas's spies. Solas even went through the trouble of easing the Inquisitor's path when they lured him/her into the crossroads.

The plot to blow people up concerned the Inquisition, but not clearing Qunari out of elvhen locations. That was my point, and the Inquisitor's point. As for blame, the gaatlock was placed on the manifest as wine or something. That was at the Winter Palace. What about Denerim and Val Royeaux? Those spies were into everyone's business, not just the Inquisition's, which in some playthrough can be rather minimalist and under-powered. Meaning, what mistake did a minimalist Inquisitor make, such as one who did not recruit Iron Bull or have any dealings with the Qunari?

See above as to why he awoke spirits^. To ease the passage of the Inquisitor or otherwise put strain on the qunari should the Inquisitor fail. All while he conserves his own forces so that there are minimal expenditures.

Except that the spirits attack the Inquisitor too.

I would say that it was for "story reasons" that the Inquisitor had to deal with the threat and not Solas. But ok, lets assume he had limits. From the cut scene with solas, there are no less than 23+ petrified qunari. A bit a of a high limit, wouldn't you say?
Unless you are implying that Mythal was weaker than the saarebas, then Solas would have been able to take him with or without his limits.

I can accept story and gameplay reasons, actually. We players need something to do after all. It just seems like in context of the plot, Solas couldn't do it alone. And that's my only point. There is no reason to assume Solas is all powerful now just because he can petrify a few dozen non-mage Qunari every now and then. It's also strange that he would twist librarian spirits from their purpose and turn them into demons just to deal with the Qunari.

The way the game played out, and up front I will tell you that I think Trespasser was horribly written, it seemed that Solas was just doing random things and hoping the Inquisitor could pull through it. And if he did, then he was worthy of life and a little bit of information about his grand plan.

[Dai Grepher]

Your hero may be even the emperor of Orlais he does not stand a chance against beings who have thousands of years of experience and the power to destroy by themselves the entire world.

Or do they have the power to destroy the entire world? And who says my Hero King could not destroy the "entire world" if he put his mind to it? "Destroy" the "entire world" is a relative concept. Maybe Solas was only referring to the elvhen race. Unless there is some proof he was referring to the entire planet, we have no reason to believe they are all that powerful. This is Dragon Age, not Dragonball Z.

Solas said that they were able to do that,the anchor is power of Solas the Inquisitor was not suited for it and in fact was dying because of it.

Again, not disagreeing. Just pointing out that the mark could be what kept the Inquisitor down. Had the mark not been an issue, he may have been able to beat Solas. And if he can't beat Solas, then what makes the "any means necessary" (ex)Inquisitor believe he can kill Solas now that he's minus one arm?

On a serious note Evanuris are on another league and you are hoping that a mortal would be able to even touch them?

The evanuris are mortal. They can be killed, as shown with Mythal. Solas taught his followers not to fear the evanuris, and that they are just as mortal as they are.

The HoF was so weak that needed full support to beat the archdemon,an Evanuris would have wiped out the horde single handendly just ad Solas killed all those Qunari without efforts.

No one can slay an archdemon except a Grey Warden.

Oh, and that bad future in Redcliffe? That proves neither Solas nor Flemythal could beat Corypheus.

[Qun00]

Solas-apologists are the creepiest thing. Like, real creepy.

Nah, we just got it wrong! Nobody is gonna die and Solas wishes all modern elves to be part of his new world.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Regardless the purpose of this topic is to help the new lead writer to see his character as the hero not as the villain,humans are the villain here they don't deserve Thedas

[sniper_arrow]

Regardless the purpose of this topic is to help the new lead writer to see his character as the hero not as the villain,humans are the villain here they don't deserve Thedas

 

Keep dreaming

[Medhia_Nox]

Dai Grepher:  You have a very egocentric viewpoint of the whole immortal thing. 

 

The universe doesn't have meaning... because you are in it... it either does, or does not, have meaning regardless of whether you are in it.  

 

A self-actualized person realizes that the tree does make a sound when it falls even if you're not there to hear it. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Nah, we just got it wrong! Nobody is gonna die and Solas wishes all modern elves to be part of his new world.

 

MAKE ELVHEN GREAT AGAIN !

 

Someone needs to make an artwork of Solas with Trump's hair. That's probably why he told our Inquisitors that they do not want to see what he would end up becoming.

 

[Dorrieb]

Except I'm no nihilist. So...

 

You may not think so, but you are making nihilistic arguments. It's like saying, 'I'm notsh drunksh, ossiffer!'

 

And what good would that do me once I die and my soul ceases to exist? I will have no memory of that great joy. This is why existing after death for eternity is necessary to make life have any meaning, so you can remember it.

 

This question makes several nihilistic assumptions. You assume that your psyche is a phenomenon separate from the universe in which it exists, you assume that time has no permanence, i.e., that events in time only exist as you perceive them and cease to exist when you cease to perceive them, except as memories, and you assume the demonstrable falsehood that time is absolute.

 

How has the thought been denied to them? They can't even imagine the prospect simply because they can't die? How does that work? And even if that's true. So what? They can't have a strong emotional reaction to thoughts related to death. Big deal. They can still appreciate beauty and life, yes?

 

No more than a fish can appreciate the water.

 

That makes no sense. From the mortal's perspective every moment is a moment in length, and when it ends, it is gone. It is past. Only the memory remains. Oblivion ends the memory.

So how is a moment eternal to the mortal? How does mortality transcend time when a mortal life has an end?

 

Imagine a novel, or a play. It has a beginning, a middle, it reaches a climax, and then it ends. Does the book cease to exist? Is the climax meaningless because you read past it? No, it's all still there. In fact, it's the ending that gives the book its meaning. A book that never ends would just be page after page of stuff happening event after event, without any rhyme or reason, never getting to the point because it could never say, 'This is it. This is what it was all about.' It must go on and on, and what would there be left to say after that?

 

What length is a moment? A lifetime can be over in the blink of an eye, and a perfect moment can be eternal. For the mortal, it's a choice. For the immortal there is no choice, time itself is meaningless. What does it matter how much sand flows or doesn't flow through the hourglass, when there is an infinite amount of sand?

 

 

What is this transcendent joy exactly? What does the emotion of joy transcend? Where does it go?

 

If you have to ask...

 

But any last thing the person enjoys will just be forgotten when the person dies and ceases to exist. That's the point. You are arguing from the perspective of the here and now, not at the point of oblivion which renders everything before it completely meaningless.

 

There is no oblivion. The novel reaches its end, but the pages are still there. When a train leaves the station, the station doesn't cease to exist, it's still there. You are not a tourist in time and space, you are a native.

 

Here, cheer up:

 

[Dai Grepher]

Regardless the purpose of this topic is to help the new lead writer to see his character as the hero not as the villain,humans are the villain here they don't deserve Thedas

Why not? They've actually built Thedas up from nothing. What have the elves built since the fall? Nothing. They are nomads. The ancient elvhen can only built stuff out of thought bubbles.

Dai Grepher:  You have a very egocentric viewpoint of the whole immortal thing. 
 
The universe doesn't have meaning... because you are in it... it either does, or does not, have meaning regardless of whether you are in it.  
 
A self-actualized person realizes that the tree does make a sound when it falls even if you're not there to hear it.

I wasn't discussing the meaning of the universe. I was discussing the meaning of an individual's life from the individual's perspective.

[SonnyKohler]

sHE

 

Solas-apologists are the creepiest thing. Like, real creepy.

Shem apologist, especially Andrastian ones are the creepiest (and most deluded) think.  Like totally creepy and deluded!

[Witch Cocktor]

Shem apologist, especially Andrastian ones are the creepiest (and most deluded) think.  Like totally creepy and deluded!

Shem apologists? What the hell are those?

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Why not? They've actually built Thedas up from nothing. What have the elves built since the fall? Nothing. They are nomads. The ancient elvhen can only built stuff out of thought bubbles.

Not really they didn't built the continent ,they merely created their own society filled with ignorant mortals ,as soon as the Evanuris will return they will put shemlen to their place.

[SonnyKohler]

Only a nihilist would see it that way. Consider the sunset: you might notice it now and then, if it happens to be particularly pretty, and you might even be moved by it, but if you knew that it was your last, because you were going to be hanged at dawn, then that sunset, no matter how ordinary it might seem to others, would be the most beautiful and life-affirming sight you could ever behold, and you would experience that moment eternally as a feeling of ultimate joy. Those moments are denied to the immortal: they can't even experience a moment as if it were their last, because even the possibility that it might be has been denied to them.

 

You speak of memories taken away by oblivion? From the outside it might seem that way, but from the perspective of the mortal, every moment is eternal. Mortality transcends time. It is the immortal who is condemned to an eternity of oblivion, never able to experience any single moment with the same transcendent joy as if it were their last, because none of them will ever be.

 

An immortal would forever wonder, 'What is the point? Of me, of everything?' while the mortals around him found the point in everything. It's this last cigarette before the firing squad, it's one last kiss from my grandchildren, it's the bird singing in the tree, it's the colours refracted by the sun through the hospital window, it's the bug crawling on my leg, it's everything and it's awful and beautiful and perfect and it was all worthwhile.

 

Economics? Pft.

Transcendent Joy?  Can I live in your delusional little world for a while?  Only the utter obliteration of the entirety of conciousness would bring me Transcendent Joy.  Who cares if there's a tomorrow.  A sunset is a sunset is a sunset, just like so many that preceded it.