125 réponses à ce sujet

[yuri7227]

Okay so I'm right before the last quest of the game and I thought i'd make one last compagnion round. And look and behold I got the option of doing The Left Hand Of The Devine quest with Liliana. Through the outcome of this quest I did some digging and it seems that you had the option of "softening" Liiliana if you choose certain dialog options during the game. Which I pretty much didin't. So lets say she's pretty much a stone cold killer at this point. What happens if I make her devine in her current state? I was planning on choosing her seeing as she wanted to unite everyone and free the mages etc. But I can emagine that this would only work if she was in this "softened state"

[vertigomez]

She enacts the same reforms. She's just willing to spill blood to do it.

[MidnightWolf]

She'll still free the mages. She's just more knife happy whenever anyone opposes her.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I, for one, welcome our new Murder Pope.

 

IMHO, steeled Leliana makes the best Divine. She wants to reform the Chantry and will do whatever it takes to make the reforms stick, including having a bunch of people knifed in the spine. I think this is more likely to lead to actual change than any of the other options.

 

(I mean, insofar as anything will lead to change. What I expect in DA4 and beyond is a few divergent lines of dialogue depending on who you picked.)

[Lazarillo]

IMHO, steeled Leliana makes the best Divine. She wants to reform the Chantry and will do whatever it takes to make the reforms stick, including having a bunch of people knifed in the spine. I think this is more likely to lead to actual change than any of the other options.

Maybe within the "Chantry" itself, but given that her reforms cause a sizable portion to break off and start the equivalent of the Protestant Chantry, I'm not sure thrusting drastic change at people is the best way to win their hearts.

[straykat]

Maybe within the "Chantry" itself, but given that her reforms cause a sizable portion to break off and start the equivalent of the Protestant Chantry, I'm not sure thrusting drastic change at people is the best way to win their hearts.

 

I agree. Seems like it just alarms people more than necessary. Why do more work and jump through hoops, when she reaches the same goal by being cool to people?

 

Besides, I kind of like how softened aligns more with her becoming a bard again.. in the sense that she uses inspiration to rally people. If I wanted an Assassin or some grouch, I'd have made Morrigan or Zevran divine.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I, for one, welcome our new Murder Pope.

 

IMHO, steeled Leliana makes the best Divine. She wants to reform the Chantry and will do whatever it takes to make the reforms stick, including having a bunch of people knifed in the spine. I think this is more likely to lead to actual change than any of the other options.

 

(I mean, insofar as anything will lead to change. What I expect in DA4 and beyond is a few divergent lines of dialogue depending on who you picked.)

 

Change isn't not always good thing, especially if it is self-destructive change what in Leliana case it is, not to mention if she wouldn't be writers pet she would quickly end dead either at hands of nobility or angry mob that would be infuriated with chaos and destruction her naive and unrealistic reforms that come at great cost of people safety and society's stability would cause.

[straykat]

Change isn't not always good thing, especially if it is self-destructive change what in Leliana case it is, not to mention if she wouldn't be writers pet she would quickly end dead either at hand of nobility or angry mob that would be infuriated with chaos and destruction her naive and unrealistic reforms that come at great cost of people safety and society's stability would cause.    .

 

If it's self-destructive to the extent you think, then this world sucks. Seriously. What's the point of magic if it's so dangerous it has to be controlled at all times? Might as well let Solas destroy everything and remake things in a pre-Veil state. Either that or forcibly make everyone Qunari.

[TheKomandorShepard]

If it's self-destructive to the extent you think, then this world sucks. Seriously. What's the point of magic if it's so dangerous it has to be controlled at all times? Might as well let Solas destroy everything and remake things in a pre-Veil state.

World is not utopia, you need exercise control in order to maintain stable society.Just to note, world Solas will create won't be and wasn't better in that matter , in fact Solas brought down old world because leadership was self-destructive with their power. 

[straykat]

World is not utopia, you need exercise control in order to maintain stable society.Just to note, world Solas will create won't be and wasn't better in that matter , in fact Solas brought down old world because leadership was self-destructive. 

 

I don't want utopia. I'm just talking about nature.

 

If it can be compared to nature, that is. If that's the case, why fight it so much? Why impose so much control over something that seems to have a place in this setting? It's like expecting lions to not be lions and to let every Zebra pass by... that they should all be locked down and act like something else. Which is basically what the Qunari want. Or, if you were Solas, he just wants to remake nature itself.

 

And even then, if you do try to control it, you still have to use undesirable means to do it. Spirit posession with Seekers, Lyrium addiction with Templars, or outright totalitarianism with Qunari. This sucks just as badly.

[KaiserShep]

Change isn't not always good thing, especially if it is self-destructive change what in Leliana case it is, not to mention if she wouldn't be writers pet she would quickly end dead either at hands of nobility or angry mob that would be infuriated with chaos and destruction her naive and unrealistic reforms that come at great cost of people safety and society's stability would cause.

Technically any companion is basically a "writer's pet" in this case. Vivienne's being a mage Divine alone warrants her death to some people, but no one will ever succeed. And really, the divine being killed in the epilogue would be kind of silly, because that would cause a total sh**storm that the next game would have to address yet obviously can't.

[straykat]

I don't see how she was ever the writer's pet. Morrigan was the "poster girl", so to speak. They even originally wanted to design DAO with Morrigan narrating things. And as far as the "goody" characters go, Alistair is probably more popular. And both of these characters have more main story emphasis and dialogue at crucial points of DAO (especially the end). Leliana and Zevran are more like optional characters.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't want utopia. I'm just talking about nature.

 

If it can be compared to nature, that is. If that's the case, why fight it so much? Why impose so much control over something that seems to have a place in this setting? It's like expecting Lions to not be lions and to let every Zebra pass by... that they should all be happy being locked down and act like something else.

 

To survive, that is what mankind pretty much strives for and sability helps achieve that as well many other goals that human may have.Things that threaten it's survival are dealt with, dangerous animals are kept in cages ,as well dangerous weapons and objects are controlled in order to ensue safety and stability.

 

 

Technically any companion is basically a "writer's pet" in this case. Vivienne's being a mage Divine alone warrants her death to some people, but no one will ever succeed. And really, the divine being killed in the epilogue would be kind of silly, because that would cause a total sh**storm that the next game would have to address yet obviously can't.

Not rly ,Vivienne meets strong opposition due to being mage but Vivienne policies are mostly compatible with society as she still wants to control mages and protect society from them so not only her policy wouldn't be nowhere near as self-destructive as Leliana's but also would be mostly aligned with wishes of society.That said i don't find particularly realistic she was chosen divine.

 

 

 

[straykat]

To survive that is what mankind pretty much strives for and sability helps achieve that as well many other goals that human may have.Things that threaten it's survival are dealt with, dangerous animals are kept in cages , more dangerous weapons and object are controlled in order to ensue safety and stability.

 

 

Not rly ,Vivienne meets strong opposition due to being mage but Vivienne policies are mostly compatible with society as she still wants to control mages and protect society from them so not only her policy wouldn't be nowhere near as self-destructive as Leliana but also would be mostly aligned with wishes of society.That said i don't find particularly realistic she was chosen divine.

 

 

 

 

Dangerous animals have also been trained and bred in multiple ways. Dogs descended from wolves, after all.

 

Not that mages are dogs

 

As for weapons, education works. Not everything needs to be controlled. It's not like they are Nukes. And even then, nuclear power is useful too. If people knew better, they'd use it more often.

 

 

Anyways, I think a lot of things in this setting are distasteful. It's a matter of picking your poison. Ideally, I'd like free mages who also learned to shut out the fade. They can still be educated without the Circles.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Dangerous animals have also been trained and bred in multiple ways. Dogs descended from wolves, after all.

 

Not that mages are dogs

 

As for weapons, education works. Not everything needs to be controlled. It's like they are Nukes.

 

Yes, what doesn't change that they are controlled approximately to threat they pose as pretty much everything else.

 

You are right that mages aren't dogs they are much greater threat than any animal.

 

Dangerous stuff need to be controlled or elese chaos and destruction would occur , education won't help here because it won't change human nature.

[MileyChicken]

What's a Lilliana?

[straykat]

Yes, what doesn't change that they are controlled approximately to threat they pose as pretty much everything else.

 

You are right that mages aren't dogs they are much greater threat than any animal.

 

Dangerous stuff need to be controlled or elese chaos and destruction would occur , education won't help here because it won't change human nature.

 

I just follow the Chantry/Andraste teachings in this setting. Even they don't say magic is that dangerous. All Andraste ever said was "Magic must serve". Which is more to do with their political power than magic. She never said any of this stuff about how threatening it is to daily existence. That's insane. And it's more like the Qunari. They can go live in their little hole, for all I care. And more importantly, it wouldn't be fun if everything in this whole series was just a bunch of Qunari. It's boring.

[thesuperdarkone2]

What everyone seems to forget that the rebellion against Leliana doesn't occur until she does things to help out non-humans. Apparently people have no problem with mage freedom but they hate giving non-humans equality. Heck, Josephine pretty much says people care more about the Inquisitor being an elf than a mage if you play an elf mage.

 

 

In other words, the people of Thedas are a bunch of racist pricks who deserve to get shanked. I welcome our new murder pope

[dragonflight288]

I, for one, welcome our new Murder Pope.

 

IMHO, steeled Leliana makes the best Divine. She wants to reform the Chantry and will do whatever it takes to make the reforms stick, including having a bunch of people knifed in the spine. I think this is more likely to lead to actual change than any of the other options.

 

(I mean, insofar as anything will lead to change. What I expect in DA4 and beyond is a few divergent lines of dialogue depending on who you picked.)

 

It's as likely to lead to revolt as well. 

 

Depends on how the writer's want to take it. 

[straykat]

What everyone seems to forget that the rebellion against Leliana doesn't occur until she does things to help out non-humans. Apparently people have no problem with mage freedom but they hate giving non-humans equality. Heck, Josephine pretty much says people care more about the Inquisitor being an elf than a mage if you play an elf mage.

 

 

In other words, the people of Thedas are a bunch of racist pricks who deserve to get shanked. I welcome our new murder pope

 

I don't blame them. Most of these races look like ****..just from a video game perspective.. Humans aren't much better though.

[dragonflight288]

What everyone seems to forget that the rebellion against Leliana doesn't occur until she does things to help out non-humans. Apparently people have no problem with mage freedom but they hate giving non-humans equality. Heck, Josephine pretty much says people care more about the Inquisitor being an elf than a mage if you play an elf mage.

 

 

In other words, the people of Thedas are a bunch of racist pricks who deserve to get shanked. I welcome our new murder pope

 

I'm sure you're right, based upon the epilogue after Trespasser. 

 

But for all we know all three Divine's may end up with some revolt or another that we read about in a Codex in Dragon Age 4 as we would be in Tevinter and be dealing with the Black Divine and the Imperial Chantry instead. It will be interesting to see how things turn out, for all three Divine's, from a distance. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

I just follow the Chantry/Andraste teachings in this setting. Even they don't say magic is that dangerous. All Andraste ever said was "Magic must serve". Which is more to do with their political power than magic. She never said any of this stuff about how threatening it is to daily existence. That's more like the Qunari. And they can go live in their little hole, for all I care.

Chantry pretty much says that mages are responsible for blights that are world-scale threat, so yes chantry is definitely saying that they are that dangerous.Not to mention chantry themselves had too soft approach toward mages that lead to poor results but at least was somewhat sufficient.Qunari put just more emphasis on control what in fact gave results.

[straykat]

I think it's stupid that race is even a factor. The subject of race was ever interesting within the context of the Elves/Shartan and the Chantry. Suddenly it's just some catchall racist thing, which lacks the same narrative punch. These others were mostly newcomers. Barely a scratch on the landscape (politically or literally).

[Giantdeathrobot]

I agree. Seems like it just alarms people more than necessary. Why do more work and jump through hoops, when she reaches the same goal by being cool to people?

 

Besides, I kind of like how softened aligns more with her becoming a bard again.. in the sense that she uses inspiration to rally people. If I wanted an Assassin or some grouch, I'd have made Morrigan or Zevran divine.

 

I found softened Leliana's ending slide to defy belief. She ends centuries of oppression and radically alters Chantry doctrine by... being nice and talking to people? If that's the only thing it took then Pope Francis would already have authorized gay marriage amongst Catholic priests or something, and Ban Ki Moon would have achieved world peace.

 

I actually prefers the ending where she basically bullies the Chantry into submission and faces adversity regardless. Much more likely, realistic and interesting.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I'm sure you're right, based upon the epilogue after Trespasser. 

 

But for all we know all three Divine's may end up with some revolt or another that we read about in a Codex in Dragon Age 4 as we would be in Tevinter and be dealing with the Black Divine and the Imperial Chantry instead. It will be interesting to see how things turn out, for all three Divine's, from a distance. 

Well we know that if you sided with the templars, they are gathering ex-templars to form an army to overthrow Divine Vivienne because they hate a mage in power