125 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

Chantry pretty much says that mages are responsible for blights that are world-scale threat, so yes chantry is definitely saying that they are that dangerous.Not to mention chantry themselves had too soft approach toward mages that lead to poor results but at least was somewhat sufficient.Qunari put just more emphasis on control what in fact gave results.

 

No, it doesn't. It says Tevinter was responsible. Specifically the magisters, which is a whole other subject. The Chant calls magic a blessing. Not a curse.

[straykat]

I found softened Leliana's ending slide to defy belief. She ends centuries of oppression and radically alters Chantry doctrine by... being nice and talking to people? If that's the only thing it took then Pope Francis would already have authorized gay marriage amongst Catholic priests or something, and Ban Ki Moon would have achieved world peace.

 

I actually prefers the ending where she basically bullies the Chantry into submission and faces adversity regardless. Much more likely, realistic and interesting.

 

It is more realistic, but then... her bard powers were never realistic to begin with. Or fantasy bards, in general. I mean, THAT is their power. Inspiration through mere presentation.

 

That said, Pope Francis is the only thing one could technically call a "World Leader". That's how powerful he is, through mere words. He doesn't get the things you want done, but all of the other world leaders are gone now.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I found softened Leliana's ending slide to defy belief. She ends centuries of oppression and radically alters Chantry doctrine by... being nice and talking to people? If that's the only thing it took then Pope Francis would already have authorized gay marriage amongst Catholic priests or something, and Ban Ki Moon would have achieved world peace.

 

I actually prefers the ending where she basically bullies the Chantry into submission and faces adversity regardless. Much more likely, realistic and interesting.

It makes a bit of sense if you sided with the mages. Viv says that your actions are seen by everyone as a sign of the Maker. Therefore, if you act pro-mage, people start to think that the Maker supports mages and thus they are more likely to help out mages. That's why Leliana gets voted if you are constantly anti-chantry and pro-mage.

 

That's not to mention that if you side with the mages, people see mages helping the Herald of Andraste restore order and fight evil against a darkspawn magister who is supported by evil templars who attack innocent people. That would improve people's view of mages which the mage ending kind of shows.

 

Just imagine people think that the Maker is literally talking through you and they think the Maker is saying to support mage freedom

[TheKomandorShepard]

No, it doesn't. It says Tevinter was responsible. Specifically the magisters, which is whole other subject. The Chant calls magic a blessing. Not a curse.

And what magisters were? Chantry stance is pretty much magic is as well curse as gift as we can see before warden Harrowing.

 

 

It is more realistic, but then... her bard powers were never realistic to begin with. Or fantasy bards, in general. I mean, THAT is their power. Inspiration through mere presentation.

 

That said, Pope Francis is the only thing one could technically call a "World Leader". That's how powerful he is, through mere words. He doesn't get the things you want done, but all of the other world leaders are gone now.

It isn't realistic in the slightest , as i said regardless of Leliana status realistically speaking she would end dead as her reforms would lead to chaos and destruction. Plus , pretty talk won't fix the world and change human nature otherwise we would already live in utopia.

 

 

It makes a bit of sense if you sided with the mages. Viv says that your actions are seen by everyone as a sign of the Maker. Therefore, if you act pro-mage, people start to think that the Maker supports mages and thus they are more likely to help out mages. That's why Leliana gets voted if you are constantly anti-chantry and pro-mage.

 

That's not to mention that if you side with the mages, people see mages helping the Herald of Andraste restore order and fight evil against a darkspawn magister who is supported by evil templars who attack innocent people. That would improve people's view of mages which the mage ending kind of shows.

 

Just imagine people think that the Maker is literally talking through you and they think the Maker is saying to support mage freedom

 

That you are popular doesn't make doing unpopular things popular only you unpopular. As i said with mages freedom would came with destruction and chaos that would be unleashed on folks and with that Inquistor popularity and support would drop faster than he would say "im chosen one".

[sniper_arrow]

Well we know that if you sided with the templars, they are gathering ex-templars to form an army to overthrow Divine Vivienne because they hate a mage in power

 

It's more of distancing or removing themselves from Divine Vivienne when she tried to reform the Templar Order and formed the Silver Shield.

[vertigomez]

Besides, I kind of like how softened aligns more with her becoming a bard again.. in the sense that she uses inspiration to rally people. If I wanted an Assassin or some grouch, I'd have made Morrigan or Zevran divine.

Divine Zevran sitting astride his ridiculously awesome throne.

Guess he's too busy taking out the Crows, though. And being male.

What everyone seems to forget that the rebellion against Leliana doesn't occur until she does things to help out non-humans. Apparently people have no problem with mage freedom but they hate giving non-humans equality. Heck, Josephine pretty much says people care more about the Inquisitor being an elf than a mage if you play an elf mage.

*distributes Burkel Was Right pins*

[straykat]

Divine Zevran sitting astride his ridiculously awesome throne.

Guess he's too busy taking out the Crows, though. And being male.


*distributes Burkel Was Right pins*

 

Burkel was right, but his problem was with Orzammar and it's nobility and their tradtions. That's what I dislike about these themes seeping on to the surface. It had nothing to do with humans. While the dwarves that do exist on the surface were chased out by their own people too. They're all exiles and ex-dusters. The dwarves' worst enemies are other dwarves. While non-Qun Qunari are at best tiny enclaves of mercs and small communities. It isn't worth shaking one's fist at with cries of systematic oppression. They barely exist. People could go their whole lives without even meeting Qunari in the south. I'd rather see more talks of Qunari relations in the next game in Tevinter. There's real story potential there.

 

Leliana's reforms are cool, but it'd have a bigger punch if it just focused on elves and stories where we see specific reconciliations with them. We don't get enough of it except with Briala. The story gets diluted with a bunch of generic "racism!" bullshit where everyone suddenly has a bone to pick and the Chantry is just some 'bad guy" that wishes ill for all.

[yuri7227]

Well that was... unexpected. Just finished the main story line and all of the sutten Vivenne becomes the Devine. I literally ignored her for half of the game because I disliked her personality/character. I sorta thought having told Liliana I would back her as Devine in a dialog that would have been enough lol. Guess I need to pay more attention in my next playthrough. 

[Knight of Dane]

It seems like softened and hardened Leliana gets the same results, just uses different means.

 

The really interesting outcome is Divine Leliana where you ignored her quest......

[Giantdeathrobot]

It is more realistic, but then... her bard powers were never realistic to begin with. Or fantasy bards, in general. I mean, THAT is their power. Inspiration through mere presentation.

 

That said, Pope Francis is the only thing one could technically call a "World Leader". That's how powerful he is, through mere words. He doesn't get the things you want done, but all of the other world leaders are gone now.

 

Yeah, well inspiring your fellow fighters is far from being the same thing as changing the Chantry's deep-seated prejudices almost overnight with no backlash. It makes no more sense than if Leliana had been able to sit down for some tea with Corypheus and convince him that present day Thedas is awesome and that the Maker loves us all.

[In Exile]

Yeah, well inspiring your fellow fighters is far from being the same thing as changing the Chantry's deep-seated prejudices almost overnight with no backlash. It makes no more sense than if Leliana had been able to sit down for some tea with Corypheus and convince him that present day Thedas is awesome and that the Maker loves us all.

The choices apart from Murder Pope Leliana and Cassandra don't make sense. Vivienne become divine with the backing of the radical conservative arm of the Chantry, which is just insane. They fought a war to keep mages in circles and their first official act is to do the one thing in recorded history that is marked as the official schism between the North and South Chantry and the return of the mageocracy in Tevinter. Insanity.

And rainbow and lollipops Leliana is just silly.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The choices apart from Murder Pope Leliana and Cassandra don't make sense. Vivienne become divine with the backing of the radical conservative arm of the Chantry, which is just insane. They fought a war to keep mages in circles and their first official act is to do the one thing in recorded history that is marked as the official schism between the North and South Chantry and the return of the mageocracy in Tevinter. Insanity.

And rainbow and lollipops Leliana is just silly.

Only Cassandra made sense as divine and even then barely, devs even admitted that they did that for drama rather than out of common sense.Both Leliana endings are silly and devoid of realism just in different ways .

[In Exile]

Only Cassandra made sense as divine and even then barely, devs even admitted that they did that for drama rather than out of common sense.Both Leliana endings are silly and devoid of realism just in different ways .

The murder pope works just fine, it just ends with a little too much stability. It fractures the Chantry but her reign of terror keeps most people in line even as reactionaries line up behind other candidates, and you see a schism forming with breakaways like Vivienne.

[Han Shot First]

I, for one, welcome our new Murder Pope.

 

IMHO, steeled Leliana makes the best Divine. She wants to reform the Chantry and will do whatever it takes to make the reforms stick, including having a bunch of people knifed in the spine. I think this is more likely to lead to actual change than any of the other options.

 

(I mean, insofar as anything will lead to change. What I expect in DA4 and beyond is a few divergent lines of dialogue depending on who you picked.)

 

Murder pope is more plausible. 

 

If we look at instances in our own history where radical social change has come about, usually it has been accompanied by bloodshed.

 

What Leliana wants to do is so radical that I can't see her realistically succeeding unless the opposition is cowed by force.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The murder pope works just fine, it just ends with a little too much stability. It fractures the Chantry but her reign of terror keeps most people in line even as reactionaries line up behind other candidates, and you see a schism forming with breakaways like Vivienne.

Eee not rly. Leliana reforms would lead to chaos and destruction what aside from already angry traditionalists would lead nobility to putting her down just to bring stability she breached.Situation would be bad for Leliana already but then folks would start become frequent victims of disasters caused by mages as there would be no longer walls of circle isolating mages from normal people what would quickly melt down her support among population and anger a lot of folks.

 

Realistically speaking, Leliana hardened or not would end dead either put down as i said by nobility or would share Stennis fate at hands of furious mob , my bet on nobility.

[Eckswhyzed]

Only Cassandra made sense as divine and even then barely, devs even admitted that they did that for drama rather than out of common sense.Both Leliana endings are silly and devoid of realism just in different ways .

Can I get a source on the dev statement? Genuinely curious, especially if they said more.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Can I get a source on the dev statement? Genuinely curious, especially if they said more.

Unfortunately i wasn't able to find it as i didn't participate in discussion , so if someone have link maybe will post it here.

[thesuperdarkone2]

So I take it nobody looked at my post about people thinking your actions are what the Maker wants?

[TheKomandorShepard]

So I take it nobody looked at my post about people thinking your actions are what the Maker wants?

Yeah i did , and rebuffed this ridiculous idea as they would be fine with Leliana reforms with cold reality.

[In Exile]

Eee not rly. Leliana reforms would lead to chaos and destruction what aside from already angry traditionalists would lead nobility to putting her down just to bring stability she breached.Situation would be bad for Leliana already but then folks would start become frequent victims of disasters caused by mages as there would be no longer walls of circle isolating mages from normal people what would quickly melt down her support among population and anger a lot of folks.

 

Realistically speaking, Leliana hardened or not would end dead either put down as i said by nobility or would share Stennis fate at hands of furious mob , my bet on nobility.

 

Really. Vivenne is proposing to re-create the Tevinter Imperium. Those places, in case you forgot, have Circles. Dorian is a member of the Circle. Their seminal moment wasn't abolishing Circles - it was when the Grand Enchanter became Divine. In a game where Vivenne ascends, she's effectively Grand Enchanter in all but name. And once she becomes Divine, you've basically created the Imperium. It's complete and rank insanity that the most reactionary and conservative elements of the Chantry, who have discredited their opponents, would ever be onside with this outcome. 

 

Think of it this way: if the demand made by the mages before their rebellion was that Justinia step aside so that she could be replaced by a mage, this would be seen as an even more radical and insane proposition than their demanding total freedom. 

 

By comparison, Leliana reforms are far more palpable. 

[Milan92]

Cassandra remains my favorite choice for Divine.

 

Even when romanced.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Really. Vivenne is proposing to re-create the Tevinter Imperium. Those places, in case you forgot, have Circles. Dorian is a member of the Circle. Their seminal moment wasn't abolishing Circles - it was when the Grand Enchanter became Divine. In a game where Vivenne ascends, she's effectively Grand Enchanter in all but name. And once she becomes Divine, you've basically created the Imperium. It's complete and rank insanity that the most reactionary and conservative elements of the Chantry, who have discredited their opponents, would ever be onside with this outcome. 

 

Think of it this way: if the demand made by the mages before their rebellion was that Justinia step aside so that she could be replaced by a mage, this would be seen as an even more radical and insane proposition than their demanding total freedom. 

 

By comparison, Leliana reforms are far more palpable. 

Once again, not rly Vivenne still wants to control mages and mages doesn't not have access to political power at least not to much greater extent than they were allowed to have before she became divine.Vivenne policies are still about controlling mages and this is what population wants and at the same time it wouldn't bring destruction upon people as she doesn't want mages free.

 

The only controversy with Viviene is fact that she is a mage but her policy when it comes to mages is in tune with desires of population and she doesn't want push unwelcome reforms in the chantry, in contrast to Leliana that not only would upset traditionalists but also folks and nobility because her reforms would be self-destructive.

 

 

   

[Ieldra]

Anyways, I think a lot of things in this setting are distasteful. It's a matter of picking your poison. Ideally, I'd like free mages who also learned to shut out the fade. They can still be educated without the Circles.

Yes, but it would boring is everything was just fine, wouldn't it?

 

Conflicts like the one about the mages, or the qunari, are an expression of a dilemma all civilizations must face: the need for some level of order and stability without which a civilization can't function, and the need for individual freedom and the potential for change without which a civilization will stagnate. Where does the right balance lie? In addition, that conflict is bound up in the ruling elite's desire to stay in power, the desire of disenfranchised minorities for change, people's fear of anything "other" and a dozen other political and social issues.

 

Personally, I'd rather err on the side of freedom, and as long as the story doesn't imply I'm wrong - and DA has managed to avoid that so far - I'm fine with it. I have much more of a problem with the story's implication that breaking into the Golden City was in some way evil. The Seven have squandered any goodwill I might've had towards them, but by acts unrelated to that. In general I'll always support attempts to steal fire from the gods. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Personally, I'd rather err on the side of freedom, and as long as the story doesn't imply I'm wrong - and DA has managed to avoid that so far - I'm fine with it. I have much more of a problem with the story's implication that breaking into the Golden City was in some way evil. The Seven have squandered any goodwill I might've had towards them, but by acts unrelated to that. In general I'll always support attempts to steal fire from the gods. 

Considering that in that case they in their folly tried to steal fire for themselves murdering massive amount of people in the process and then unleashed said fire (that turned out to be world-threatening corruption) upon world causing massive destruction , chaos and countless numbers of deaths you would have to wear blinders to see them in any other light than negative . 

[Aren]

Considering that in that case they in their folly tried to steal fire for themselves murdering massive amount of people in the process and then unleashed said fire (that turned out to be world-threatening corruption) upon world causing massive destruction , chaos and countless numbers of deaths you would have to wear blinders to see them in any other light than negative . 

good Komandor one of the rare times we agree,magisters of the black city are the living proof o what happen to those fools who don't know what they are doing and toy with forces which they don't even understand