125 réponses à ce sujet

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 

Personally, I'd rather err on the side of freedom, and as long as the story doesn't imply I'm wrong - and DA has managed to avoid that so far - I'm fine with it. I have much more of a problem with the story's implication that breaking into the Golden City was in some way evil. The Seven have squandered any goodwill I might've had towards them, but by acts unrelated to that. In general I'll always support attempts to steal fire from the gods. 

These humans who wish to steal the fire from the elven gods,when they will understand that elven powers belong to elves?

[Mistic]

Let's be honest: we know that in the next game (or the one after that, if the next is indeed going to be set in Tevinter) Bioware will retcon part of what we're seeing in DA:I. If too progressive, they will say the Divine (or her successor) will undo some of the changes "to keep the Chantry intact". If too reactionary, some changes will occur "because the Chantry has to keep up with Thedas". Or something like that.

 

Also, I don't see Murder Pope Leliana being more realistic in her endeavours than Inspired Leliana. After all, political intrigue and assassination didn't help Celene, and at least Softened Leliana's epilogue in Trespasser acknowledged that she has to deal with rebellion among the reactionaries and assassination attempts, instead of "Bard Leliana wins again" (where was that almost superhuman sabotage ability when I was running the Inquisition, I wonder?).

[Giantdeathrobot]

The choices apart from Murder Pope Leliana and Cassandra don't make sense. Vivienne become divine with the backing of the radical conservative arm of the Chantry, which is just insane. They fought a war to keep mages in circles and their first official act is to do the one thing in recorded history that is marked as the official schism between the North and South Chantry and the return of the mageocracy in Tevinter. Insanity.

And rainbow and lollipops Leliana is just silly.

 

I think that is more plausible because she promises to keep the mages and Templars in line, which is very much what the Chantry wants most at this point. Still a surprising choice, sure, but I don't think it defies belief like Softened Leliana does.

 

Sure, Vivienne herself being Divine reeks of the Black Chantry, but her actual policies do not. It clearly says the Circles are back in business, just more meritocratic than before. After so much chaos, I could see this appeasing the hardline Chantry elements.

[straykat]

To me, it doesn't matter how competent Vivienne or her policies are. It's everyone else. That's who I don't see suddenly being so cool with it. It's one thing to ease up or even free mages... I think a lot of common folk can sympathize with that actually. But let them rule over you and be the mouthpiece of the Chantry? That's explicitly against everything they were told directly by Andraste. It's not just Anti-Chantry. It's Anti-Andrastian. Andraste never said anything about mage imprisonment (that's just an idea from the old Inquisition), but she did warn about mage rulers.

 

I think Cassandra kind of reflects how well it turn out. She's cool with Leliana, but not Vivienne.

[Dean_the_Young]

I, for one, welcome our new Murder Pope.

 

IMHO, steeled Leliana makes the best Divine. She wants to reform the Chantry and will do whatever it takes to make the reforms stick, including having a bunch of people knifed in the spine. I think this is more likely to lead to actual change than any of the other options.

 

(I mean, insofar as anything will lead to change. What I expect in DA4 and beyond is a few divergent lines of dialogue depending on who you picked.)

 

Out of curiosity, how many major social and cultural reforms can you think of which succeeded on the basis of a reign of terror and murder of the dissidents drawn from a majority?

 

The problem with knifing a bunch of people in the spine to get them to change their mind is that often the mind you change is the one to knife you back. Change is easy enough, but the kind of change you want is a lot harder when there are a lot of knives on one side than the other.

 

Aside from that the Chantry is woefully underequipped to manage an effective reign of terror, Leliana is far more likely to kick off a repeat of the Tutsi than change the popular views of elves.

 

 

 

[Dean_the_Young]

To me, it doesn't matter how competent Vivienne or her policies are. It's everyone else. That's who I don't see suddenly being so cool with it. It's one thing to ease up or even free mages... I think a lot of common folk can sympathize with that actually. But let them rule over you and be the mouthpiece of the Chantry? That's explicitly against everything they were told directly by Andraste. It's not just Anti-Chantry. It's Anti-Andrastian. Andraste never said anything about mage imprisonment (that's just an idea from the old Inquisition), but she did warn about mage rulers.

 

I think Cassandra kind of reflects how well it turn out. She's cool with Leliana, but not Vivienne.

 

Vivienne faces three separate rebellions in the first few months, which is three more than anyone else gets. How is that everyone else being 'cool' with it?

 

Vivienne isn't a popular divine. What she is is a capable politician who's made allies with those who were willing to support her and examples of those who tried to dethrone her.

[KaiserShep]

These humans who wish to steal the fire from the elven gods,when they will understand that elven powers belong to elves?

 

 

Not if you pry that power from their cold dead fingers. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Not if you pry that power from their cold dead fingers. 

 

Why wait for rigor mortis to settle in?

[KaiserShep]

Why wait for rigor mortis to settle in?

 

 

Good point, but then, since the thing being taken away may not even technically be a tangible thing you could pry from fingers in the first place. 

 

[straykat]

Vivienne faces three separate rebellions in the first few months, which is three more than anyone else gets. How is that everyone else being 'cool' with it?

 

Vivienne isn't a popular divine. What she is is a capable politician who's made allies with those who were willing to support her and examples of those who tried to dethrone her.

 

I said people wouldn't be cool with it.

 

Did I phrase it strangely?

[Dean_the_Young]

I said people wouldn't be cool with it.

 

Did I phrase it strangely?

 

No- and I'm pointing out that she's had three separate rebellions already. So where would you get any impression that people were cool with it?

 

Or weren't not cool with it.

[straykat]

Out of curiosity, how many major social and cultural reforms can you think of which succeeded on the basis of a reign of terror and murder of the dissidents drawn from a majority?

 

The problem with knifing a bunch of people in the spine to get them to change their mind is that often the mind you change is the one to knife you back. Change is easy enough, but the kind of change you want is a lot harder when there are a lot of knives on one side than the other.

 

Aside from that the Chantry is woefully underequipped to manage an effective reign of terror, Leliana is far more likely to kick off a repeat of the Tutsi than change the popular views of elves.

 

Those views of elves came from an old war... at least in the South. It's not something inherent or whatever. I think that can be changed.

 

Of course, it would take time.. but I'm sure there are already plenty of humans who are with her as it is. I think of.. like... the average commoner with an elf buddy or something. Like those two guys who stumbled on Darkspawn in Awakening. Before the mission with Sigrun. There's probably a lot of people like that.

[straykat]

No- and I'm pointing out that she's had three separate rebellions already. So where would you get any impression that people were cool with it?

 

Or weren't not cool with it.

 

I never had that impression in the first place. I said people wouldn't be cool with it.

 

Again, I ask: Am I phrasing it strangely? You've asked this twice now..... even though we're in agreement.

[SgtSteel91]

I kind of wish there was some variation to the Trespasser Divine Leliana Epilogue if the Inquisition was kept as her honor guard. Like just have that line from Steeled Leliana, where the rebellion crumbles and some think the Divine engineered its failure, except replace "the Divine" with "the Inquisition." I mean, protecting Leliana and her reforms was one of the main reasons I didn't disband the Inquisition.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Those views of elves came from an old war... at least in the South. It's not something inherent or whatever. I think that can be changed.

 

Of course, it would take time.. but I'm sure there are already plenty of humans who are with her as it is. I think of.. like... the average commoner with an elf buddy or something. Like those two guys who stumbled on Darkspawn in Awakening. Before the mission with Sigrun. There's probably a lot of people like that.

It is part of human nature to hate people that are different, do you honestly belive that people hate elves just because of some war centuries ago and that only touched Orlais?

 

Such humans are in fact very few in numbers as you can tell by number of them in contrast to servant-master relationship , not to mention as i said before her support quickly would go down with her reforms concerning mages. 

[straykat]

It is part of human nature to hate people that are different, do you honestly belive that people hate elves just because of some war centuries ago and that only touched Orlais?

 

Such humans are in fact very few in numbers as you can tell by number of them in contrast to servant-master relationship , not to mention as i said before her support quickly would go down with her reforms concerning mages. 

 

Yes. Because they did once before. And the Chantry itself was partly founded with Shartan's help. There are positive things to build upon.. things that made the South much different than Tevinter.

 

It isn't in people's genes or blood to hate others. Or whatever ingrained compulsion you're talking about. That's retarded.

 

Maybe if you were some ****** 90 year old racist, like my Grandpa was. maybe then it's too late to help.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes. Because they did once before. And the Chantry itself was partly founded with Shartan's help. There are positive things to build upon.. things that made the South much different than Tevinter.

 

It isn't in people's genes or blood to hate others. Or whatever ingrained compulsion you're talking about. That's retarded.

 

Maybe if you were some ****** 90 year old racist, like my Grandpa was. maybe then it's too late to help.

 

Then you are wrong because elves weren't liked more before , that Shartan helped Andraste doesn't mean elves were liked, if they were they wouldn't end in alienages.

 

Wait what you are talking about, im speaking about human nature and things such as crimes and corruption will always come with mankind same can be said about racism.

[straykat]

Then you are wrong because elves weren't liked more before , that Shartan helped Andraste doesn't mean elves were liked, if they were they wouldn't end in alienages.

 

Wait what you are talking about, im speaking about human nature and things such as crimes and corruption will always come with mankind same can be said about racism.

 

They ended up in Alienages much later. That's a result of war and Orlesian/Chantry vindictiveness later.

 

I agree that corruption will always exist, but it doesn't have to exist systematically or institutionally necessarily. And I think there are enough common people that would go with it that it could change socially as well.

 

Either way, it's nice to make a step in that direction instead of doing nothing.

[TheKomandorShepard]

They ended up in Alienages much later. That's a result of war and Orlesian/Chantry vindictiveness later.

 

I agree that corruption will always exist, but it doesn't have to exist systematically or institutionally necessarily. And I think there are enough common people that would go with it that it could change socially as well.

 

Either way, it's nice to make a step in that direction instead of doing nothing.

 

I know that duh, but as i said if they were so liked they would end there in first place , war was mere result of racial conflict.

 

Not in Thedas at least not quickly and radically like Leliana tries to do and especially considering that her policies as i said would bring chaos and destruction what would lead to society putting her down in order to restore safety and stability.

 

This isn't step this is trying to jump from A to Z.

[In Exile]

Vivienne faces three separate rebellions in the first few months, which is three more than anyone else gets. How is that everyone else being 'cool' with it?

 

Vivienne isn't a popular divine. What she is is a capable politician who's made allies with those who were willing to support her and examples of those who tried to dethrone her.

 

But she isn't a popular politician. That's what makes her so great as a character - she's basically an amazing huckster, who's learned to project an incredible amount of power and confidence without having any. She's managed to horse trade ceremonial positions and fight through humiliation and shame to get to where she is - and that's the best she could do in the society she grew up in. I think it's admirable, in a way. 

 

 

I think that is more plausible because she promises to keep the mages and Templars in line, which is very much what the Chantry wants most at this point. Still a surprising choice, sure, but I don't think it defies belief like Softened Leliana does.

 

Sure, Vivienne herself being Divine reeks of the Black Chantry, but her actual policies do not. It clearly says the Circles are back in business, just more meritocratic than before. After so much chaos, I could see this appeasing the hardline Chantry elements.

 

Her first order of business  (in the templar ending) is to try and hollow out the templars into, essentially, her puppets. And she represents political legitimacy for the mages. That's something not even Leliana can give mages in their most pro-mage ending. Sure, they're free - but they're a fringe group on the outside of political reality. The anointing of Vivienne returns mages to their 'natural' role as rulers over mundanes. 

 

The Circles aren't back as more meritocratic, because Vivienne doesn't get to where she is on merit. She gets to where she is on pure cunning. What she opens the door to is not capable mages, but political mages, and having the Circle gain true political power. The Chantry fought a war and almost broke apart over that point. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Her first order of business  (in the templar ending) is to try and hollow out the templars into, essentially, her puppets. And she represents political legitimacy for the mages. That's something not even Leliana can give mages in their most pro-mage ending. Sure, they're free - but they're a fringe group on the outside of political reality. The anointing of Vivienne returns mages to their 'natural' role as rulers over mundanes. 

 

The Circles aren't back as more meritocratic, because Vivienne doesn't get to where she is on merit. She gets to where she is on pure cunning. What she opens the door to is not capable mages, but political mages, and having the Circle gain true political power. The Chantry fought a war and almost broke apart over that point. 

 

Once again not rly, Mages have no more power over mundanes than before and are far away from having political power,plus Viviene still wants to control mages and keep them in circles.So i don't know from where you take info that Vivienne established magocracy.

[In Exile]

Once again not rly, Mages have no more power over mundanes than before and are far away from having political power,plus Viviene still wants to control mages and keep them in circles.So i don't know from where you take info that Vivienne established magocracy.

 

Again, the Tevinters keep all their Mages in Circles. It's not about whether Circles exist - it's about what they are, and what mages can do. The Circles were developed as a way to keep mages out of civil society. Vivienne is actively working against it - she's worked her way through the Orlesian nobility as a de facto noble using the limited tools open to her (her wits and body) and acquired real political power in a society and institution where mages are supposed to have none. She's more of a gamechanger for mages than any other reformer out there because she legitimizes their having power. 

 

If you don't think the Divine has power over mundanes, I have a really nice kiosk in the Black City I think you might be interested in leasing. 

 

Think about it - if the Circles didn't demand freedom but rather demanded Justinia step down so that Fionna could be made Divine, this position would be seen as 10 times more insane than what happened. Yet this is somehow what the most conservative elements of the chantry are OK with, just with more conservative packaging on the front cover. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Again, the Tevinters keep all their Mages in Circles. It's not about whether Circles exist - it's about what they are, and what mages can do. The Circles were developed as a way to keep mages out of civil society. Vivienne is actively working against it - she's worked her way through the Orlesian nobility as a de facto noble using the limited tools open to her (her wits and body) and acquired real political power in a society and institution where mages are supposed to have none. She's more of a gamechanger for mages than any other reformer out there because she legitimizes their having power. 

 

If you don't think the Divine has power over mundanes, I have a really nice kiosk in the Black City I think you might be interested in leasing. 

 

Think about it - if the Circles didn't demand freedom but rather demanded Justinia step down so that Fionna could be made Divine, this position would be seen as 10 times more insane than what happened. Yet this is somehow what the most conservative elements of the chantry are OK with, just with more conservative packaging on the front cover. 

 

You keep going with argument that Tevinter has circles (so every other country in Thedas) but it is irrelevant, in first place Vivienne didn't establish Magocracy by simple fact mages don't rule over nations nor the chantry as there is no rule (unlike in Tevinter) that divine has to be a mage as opposed to that divine just happens to be a mage , mages still are under control, remain in circles and don't have access to political power where in Tevinter mages are free and nobility consists only of mages. 

 

Yes, with an exception that Vivienne is Divine in spite of being mage not because she is a mage like in Tevinter.

 

Except you are going into extremes that doesn't match this example, as i mentioned before Viviene policies are in tune with wishes of population and chantry.Only controversy with Viviene is coming from fact she is a mage (and it causes her problems) but her regime is in tune with society.That said, i don't find Chantry picked Vivienne practically realistic but still much more realistic than Leliana ending that is completely out of the touch with reality.    

[sniper_arrow]

Again, the Tevinters keep all their Mages in Circles. It's not about whether Circles exist - it's about what they are, and what mages can do. The Circles were developed as a way to keep mages out of civil society. Vivienne is actively working against it - she's worked her way through the Orlesian nobility as a de facto noble using the limited tools open to her (her wits and body) and acquired real political power in a society and institution where mages are supposed to have none. She's more of a gamechanger for mages than any other reformer out there because she legitimizes their having power. 

 

Didn't Dorian said that the Tevinter Circles were more like academies/universities than prisons?

[In Exile]

Didn't Dorian said that the Tevinter Circles were more like academies/universities than prisons?

 

Yes, and that's my point. It doesn't matter what the window dressing says - it matters what the organization is in substance. Circles in Tevinter were like the rest of the South, says Dorian. Until they weren't.