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The not so softened Liliana


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#76
TheKomandorShepard

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Yes, and that's my point. It doesn't matter what the window dressing says - it matters what the organization is in substance. Circles in Tevinter were like the rest of the South, says Dorian. Until they weren't.

Except as i have previously mentioned it has nothing to do with Vivienne regime and situation in southern Thedas that is vastly different than it is in Tevinter and still promotes mages containment nor does promote giving mages political power like Tevinter always did even before they separated from the chantry.



#77
Dean_the_Young

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Yes, and that's my point. It doesn't matter what the window dressing says - it matters what the organization is in substance. Circles in Tevinter were like the rest of the South, says Dorian. Until they weren't.

 

The Circles of Tevinter also had a significant role in the magisterium and significant informal political power as well, even before the Black Divine. The mages were already (still) the aristocracy, complete with dynasty politics, and that's a vital parallel that Vivienne doesn't have. There were far, far more elements to the Mageocracy of Tevinter than mages getting into the Chantry and one mage on top- and the most important of which was allowing the mages to be de facto nobility in the first place. The Magister support base was fellow mages- Vivienne's support base is mundane nobility.

 

The main 'disadvantage' of Vivienne is that she breaks a precedent. In terms of freedom to create a mage polity that can maximize their influence and create a power base, Leliana's disregard is more worrisome over the long term than Vivienne's personal alliance.

 

As far as mage reforms go, though- if you're the sort that believes the mages should be freer from the Circles, Vivienne's path of involvement with the Chantry is the healthier/better. If Mages are formally excluded from the Chantry, their escape from the Circles isn't really freedom, just an allowance by the establishment that might change it's mind.


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#78
Mistic

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If Mages are formally excluded from the Chantry, their escape from the Circles isn't really freedom, just an allowance by the establishment that might change it's mind.

 

Isn't that what happens at the end in most epilogues? No matter what you do, there will always be a Circle and a College of Enchanters, the later in most cases an organization that could be crushed by the powers that be but is allowed to continue because reasons.



#79
Dean_the_Young

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Isn't that what happens at the end in most epilogues? No matter what you do, there will always be a Circle and a College of Enchanters, the later in most cases an organization that could be crushed by the powers that be but is allowed to continue because reasons.

 

Yup.

 

Which is why the idea that the mage rebellion 'succeeded' is a misnomer- the rebellion itself didn't achieve any of its goals by its own strengths or successes. All Fiona can get, at best, is whatever the Divine is already inclined to throw her way.

 

Personally, if I expected any sense of realism, the College of Enchanters will be the deathknell of the mages as an apoloticial group. Between the Circle-College rivalry, and the abdication of enforcement leaving mage handling to local political powers, the era in which mages weren't considered a national political concern is over. Mages will fight over being fought over and gaining power, and that has far more dangers for mageocracy than Vivienne herself.



#80
The Baconer

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The Circles of Tevinter also had a significant role in the magisterium and significant informal political power as well, even before the Black Divine. The mages were already (still) the aristocracy, complete with dynasty politics, and that's a vital parallel that Vivienne doesn't have. There were far, far more elements to the Mageocracy of Tevinter than mages getting into the Chantry and one mage on top- and the most important of which was allowing the mages to be de facto nobility in the first place. The Magister support base was fellow mages- Vivienne's support base is mundane nobility.

 

Certain, similar arrangements in southern Thedas are present, though admittedly to a far lesser extent. Mages have been able to become political entities in their own right, or even operate as literal nobility in spite of the restrictions initially described to us in DA:O. The Mortalitasi, for example, are not only powerful due to their place within cultural tradition, but also in a dynastic capacity through being "linked to the throne by blood". 



#81
Mistic

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Personally, if I expected any sense of realism, the College of Enchanters will be the deathknell of the mages as an apoloticial group. Between the Circle-College rivalry, and the abdication of enforcement leaving mage handling to local political powers, the era in which mages weren't considered a national political concern is over. Mages will fight over being fought over and gaining power, and that has far more dangers for mageocracy than Vivienne herself.

 

True. After Trespasser, I see that many underestimate the power national entities have in Thedas. It's true that there's still a long way before the setting sees something similar to the Westphalian state, but the Chantry and other international organizations like the Inquisition aren't all-powerful. Like when most of Kirkwall's problems started when the Chantry tried to do Orlais a favour in a matter outside religious, Circle or Templar matters. Or when Gaspard, before the civil war, suggested the use of the Orlesian army to crush both mages and templars. If Celene disagreed wasn't because she thought it unfeasible; on the contrary, she was afraid the bloody success would undermine her peace-loving public image.

 

Which those precedents, was it so difficult to imagine Orlais and Ferelden together trying to put the yoke on the Inquisition? It wasn't. The same could be said of the College, which shouldn't work with at least some sort of arrangement. Vivienne's ending if Leliana is Divine suggests that even her Circle gets its power from its "political connections".



#82
Dean_the_Young

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True. After Trespasser, I see that many underestimate the power national entities have in Thedas. It's true that there's still a long way before the setting sees something similar to the Westphalian state, but the Chantry and other international organizations like the Inquisition aren't all-powerful. Like when most of Kirkwall's problems started when the Chantry tried to do Orlais a favour in a matter outside religious, Circle or Templar matters. Or when Gaspard, before the civil war, suggested the use of the Orlesian army to crush both mages and templars. If Celene disagreed wasn't because she thought it unfeasible; on the contrary, she was afraid the bloody success would undermine her peace-loving public image.

 

Which those precedents, was it so difficult to imagine Orlais and Ferelden together trying to put the yoke on the Inquisition? It wasn't. The same could be said of the College, which shouldn't work with at least some sort of arrangement. Vivienne's ending if Leliana is Divine suggests that even her Circle gets its power from its "political connections".

 

What makes it worse is that the status-quo for the mages is unsustainable.

 

When the Chantry ran the circles as a mage monopoly, they had the heft and monopoly to keep the mages from being political footballs or national advatnages. Everyone accepted this, more or less, and the Chantry's allowance of mages was restricted enough (Blights and Exalted Marches predominantly) that mages weren't a strategic advantage.

 

But while the Circle could maintain it's monopoly, the College's can't. The inherent nature of mage freedom is that the mages will be free to make deals, and bargains, and be sought for such by ambitious patrons or nobles. If the College even tried to prohbit such contacts, it'd just be the Circle. The College guarantees local political influences, and the competition between College and Circle will mean the Circles will be competing for the same patrons and influence.

 

That competition is going to break the idea of neutrality on an international level, and probably break the Circle and College both as international, rather than national, institutions. As the mages tie into the political fields, they become political influence and national assets. But no matter who 'wins' between College and Circle, they'll both be aligned with the kingdom... and drawn along when the Kingdoms come into conflict for their own reasons. It's easy to see the College and Circle having proxy battles if there was, say, another Orlais and Neverran conflict... but it'd also be possible to see College vs College or Circle vs Circle if their respective patrons are in conflict.

 

That breakdown of mage solidarity- what makes 'the mages' a meaningful description of a political identity- is what's going to ruin a lot of the hopes for mage freedom or the College. The more valuable and advantageous mages are, the more Local Colleges will either dominate, or be dominated by, local political elites. The more they are, the more the interests of the mage collectives diminish, and you'll see a fracturing of the mage groups along geographic lines. And the more fractured they are... well, the more actors and opportunities you have for a mage elite in a country, the more likely you are to see de-facto mageocracies emerge in different kingdoms or areas. And the more reasons for Mundanes rulers to dominate and exploit the mages they have.

 

It'll take time- decades, even generations- but the idea of mage freedom as being free of the mundanes is a mirage. The apolitical freedom is on its death bed, and it's only a matter before mages carve out political spheres to dominate or they are dominated and exploited far worse than the Chantry ever worked them.


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#83
thesuperdarkone2

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What makes it worse is that the status-quo for the mages is unsustainable.

 

When the Chantry ran the circles as a mage monopoly, they had the heft and monopoly to keep the mages from being political footballs or national advatnages. Everyone accepted this, more or less, and the Chantry's allowance of mages was restricted enough (Blights and Exalted Marches predominantly) that mages weren't a strategic advantage.

 

But while the Circle could maintain it's monopoly, the College's can't. The inherent nature of mage freedom is that the mages will be free to make deals, and bargains, and be sought for such by ambitious patrons or nobles. If the College even tried to prohbit such contacts, it'd just be the Circle. The College guarantees local political influences, and the competition between College and Circle will mean the Circles will be competing for the same patrons and influence.

 

That competition is going to break the idea of neutrality on an international level, and probably break the Circle and College both as international, rather than national, institutions. As the mages tie into the political fields, they become political influence and national assets. But no matter who 'wins' between College and Circle, they'll both be aligned with the kingdom... and drawn along when the Kingdoms come into conflict for their own reasons. It's easy to see the College and Circle having proxy battles if there was, say, another Orlais and Neverran conflict... but it'd also be possible to see College vs College or Circle vs Circle if their respective patrons are in conflict.

 

That breakdown of mage solidarity- what makes 'the mages' a meaningful description of a political identity- is what's going to ruin a lot of the hopes for mage freedom or the College. The more valuable and advantageous mages are, the more Local Colleges will either dominate, or be dominated by, local political elites. The more they are, the more the interests of the mage collectives diminish, and you'll see a fracturing of the mage groups along geographic lines. And the more fractured they are... well, the more actors and opportunities you have for a mage elite in a country, the more likely you are to see de-facto mageocracies emerge in different kingdoms or areas. And the more reasons for Mundanes rulers to dominate and exploit the mages they have.

 

It'll take time- decades, even generations- but the idea of mage freedom as being free of the mundanes is a mirage. The apolitical freedom is on its death bed, and it's only a matter before mages carve out political spheres to dominate or they are dominated and exploited far worse than the Chantry ever worked them.

The devs outright stated the divine choice was for drama. That should tell you what's going to happen



#84
Milan92

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The devs outright stated the divine choice was for drama. That should tell you what's going to happen

 

Which Divine choice are you talking about?



#85
thesuperdarkone2

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Which Divine choice are you talking about?

All of them



#86
Milan92

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All of them

 

Ah I see. I'm definitely expecting a retcon in DA4.

 

All of them will probably be replaced by a new divine for story reasons.



#87
Mistic

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It'll take time- decades, even generations- but the idea of mage freedom as being free of the mundanes is a mirage. The apolitical freedom is on its death bed, and it's only a matter before mages carve out political spheres to dominate or they are dominated and exploited far worse than the Chantry ever worked them.

 

But if it takes generations to happen, it will happen after the Dragon Age! Writers don't have to worry about it. Everybody wins! ;)

 

More seriously, I agree with the idea that such a situation will step by step undermine the idea of "mages" as a cohesive collective identity. In fact, the very existence of the Circle and the College at the end of Trespasser already shows its first cracks ("We are all mages" versus "If you don't belong to [insert organization name here], you aren't a proper mage").

 

Nevertheless, I don't find the future so ominous, because of the simple fact that said mage identity was false to begin with. We know that mages and mundanes outside Southern Chantry areas, or even in lightly touched areas like Rivain, have different ideas on what that relationship should be.

 

And that's without adding future technological advancements. The problem of bows wasn't that they were less deadly than firearms. In fact, the opposite was true for centuries. However, it take too long and it was expensive to train a proper archer for war. Nevermind a knight. Those same economic variables should be taken into account when thinking of the role of mages. In a way, the future may be the victory of the Lucrosians, the same as the decadence of feudalism saw the rise of the trading and financial classes.


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#88
straykat

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At the very least, that sounds interesting. Better than having elements of the world get tucked away, safely removed from everything else. That isn't much different than if they never had mages. It'd just be a pseudo-medieval setting. I'd be happy with that, but since that isn't quite what this setting is, I'm interested in the possibilities.... within reason.

 

I wish the games were smart enough to truly take into account what kind of example these future mages will learn from. It'd be nice if you, the Player, had an effect on their direction. Like the mages can form the "Bright Hand" faction and uphold a good example, in one outcome. Some align directly with the Inquisition and learn from that example. And I think it'd be cool if more mages learned from, say, a good Hawke example. But I don't know if any of this will ever matter.

 

That would satisfy me.. my goal is just to see exemplary mages. And I don't think they need to be caged to do it. People who think they need to be aren't ever going to be pleased.. even if the mages are saints. They're convinced it's always going to be a disaster.



#89
Dabrikishaw

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The devs outright stated the divine choice was for drama. That should tell you what's going to happen

Basically that's it's not worth thinking about. I gathered that much from Trespasser.



#90
Dean_the_Young

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The devs outright stated the divine choice was for drama. That should tell you what's going to happen

 

You mean Divine Leliana hasn't conclusively solved all the issues of Thedas effectively and already proven herself the best Divine by unquestionable and enduring success?

 

Who are you, and what have you done with thesuperdorkone2?



#91
Dean_the_Young

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But if it takes generations to happen, it will happen after the Dragon Age! Writers don't have to worry about it. Everybody wins! ;)

 

More seriously, I agree with the idea that such a situation will step by step undermine the idea of "mages" as a cohesive collective identity. In fact, the very existence of the Circle and the College at the end of Trespasser already shows its first cracks ("We are all mages" versus "If you don't belong to [insert organization name here], you aren't a proper mage").

 

Personally I think the creation of a mage identity was a mistake in the first place.

 

What the Chantry and Templars should have done, among other reforms, was pit the fraternities against eachother in zero-sum games with loyalists getting the best perks, issue-specific fraternities getting allowances to pursue that, and absolutely no one wanting to be associated with the independence movement in any way.

 

Divide and conquer, and all that.

 

 

Nevertheless, I don't find the future so ominous, because of the simple fact that said mage identity was false to begin with. We know that mages and mundanes outside Southern Chantry areas, or even in lightly touched areas like Rivain, have different ideas on what that relationship should be.

 

And that's without adding future technological advancements. The problem of bows wasn't that they were less deadly than firearms. In fact, the opposite was true for centuries. However, it take too long and it was expensive to train a proper archer for war. Nevermind a knight. Those same economic variables should be taken into account when thinking of the role of mages. In a way, the future may be the victory of the Lucrosians, the same as the decadence of feudalism saw the rise of the trading and financial classes.

 

 

Eh. I bet mages get conscripted by people other than the Wardens and Qunari before the Age is out.

 

Of course, were I a thedasian strategist, one of my first interests for the mages would be necromancy. Let's see you stop my army of undead crossbow users!



#92
thesuperdarkone2

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You mean Divine Leliana hasn't conclusively solved all the issues of Thedas effectively and already proven herself the best Divine by unquestionable and enduring success?

 

Who are you, and what have you done with thesuperdorkone2?

Bad troll is bad.

 

How do you explain nobody complaining about mage freedom if Leliana is divine? All trespasser showed me is that people have no problem with mage freedom once mages prove themselves. However, they are a bunch of racists who deserve a kick in the rear. It may take a while, but I'll happily support Divine Leliana and that's why I always keep the Inquisition while Leliana is Divine.

 

Divine Leliana has already proven mage freedom can work. Vivienne is just a ****** that can't handle being irrelevant in mage politics and starts a mage civil war because she wants to be on top. Vivienne can go to hell.

 

Divine Leliana is still my best divine. Whether you believe it or not is your problem. Sorry if logic like that is too hard to grasp in your narrow viewpoint.



#93
straykat

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I doubt you could label whatever Qunari do as "conscription".



#94
sniper_arrow

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Bad troll is bad.

 

How do you explain nobody complaining about mage freedom if Leliana is divine? All trespasser showed me is that people have no problem with mage freedom once mages prove themselves. However, they are a bunch of racists who deserve a kick in the rear. It may take a while, but I'll happily support Divine Leliana and that's why I always keep the Inquisition while Leliana is Divine.

 

Divine Leliana has already proven mage freedom can work. Vivienne is just a ****** that can't handle being irrelevant in mage politics and starts a mage civil war because she wants to be on top. Vivienne can go to hell.

 

Divine Leliana is still my best divine. Whether you believe it or not is your problem. Sorry if logic like that is too hard to grasp in your narrow viewpoint.

 

It's either she managed to kill her haters or it's Bioware showing their favoritism and support over Leliana and the mages. 

 

As to whether mage freedom will work, we will need further context for it. Who's to say the mages won't become like the Tevinter magisters, regardless of Chantry restrictions? 

 

No matter how many times you call Vivienne the "B" word, she has a point regarding about the safeguarding the mages from possession, blood magic, and the wrath of the people. Let's face it, while Divine Leliana seemed good on paper, I would be bold to say she's not really a long-term thinker when it comes to the mage freedom. 



#95
Dean_the_Young

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Bad troll is bad.

 

How do you explain nobody complaining about mage freedom if Leliana is divine? All trespasser showed me is that people have no problem with mage freedom once mages prove themselves. However, they are a bunch of racists who deserve a kick in the rear. It may take a while, but I'll happily support Divine Leliana and that's why I always keep the Inquisition while Leliana is Divine.

 

Divine Leliana has already proven mage freedom can work. Vivienne is just a ****** that can't handle being irrelevant in mage politics and starts a mage civil war because she wants to be on top. Vivienne can go to hell.

 

Divine Leliana is still my best divine. Whether you believe it or not is your problem. Sorry if logic like that is too hard to grasp in your narrow viewpoint.

 

Ah, that's better. In a paternalistic, condescending sort of indulgence.

 

So, in other news, you've had a few more months. Found that codex yet?


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#96
thesuperdarkone2

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It's either she managed to kill her haters or it's Bioware showing their favoritism and support over Leliana and the mages. 

 

As to whether mage freedom will work, we will need further context for it. Who's to say the mages won't become like the Tevinter magisters, regardless of Chantry restrictions? 

 

No matter how many times you call Vivienne the "B" word, she has a point regarding about the safeguarding the mages from possession, blood magic, and the wrath of the people. Let's face it, while Divine Leliana seemed good on paper, I would be bold to say she's not really a long-term thinker when it comes to the mage freedom. 

Considering that in Divine Leliana's ending, once the Circles are dissolved the mages decide to make their own college where mages can protect each other and study in peace, plus Asunder showing mages were still not going to rebel despite the circles becoming actual prisons and harsher restrictions on them until Lambert decided to declare war on them, all goes to show that the mages of the south aren't going to become Tevinter anytime soon and they just want to be left in peace and be treated like people.

 

Heck, Divine Vivienne is more likely to result in Tevinter 2.0 than anything Divine Leliana does.

 

 

Also, Vivienne points start to fall apart considering she wasn't subject to some of the harsher restrictions. She wasn't around for the prison circle era of Asunder so she has no right to talk. Also, she only has her position after whoring herself out to an influential noble so I'll take anything she says with a grain of salt. Furthermore, that doesn't change the fact that if she dislikes you, she can outright tell you that she thinks mages will always be hated and that nothing should be done to improve the reputation of mages. Considering history has shown that yes, trying to improve things despite opposition is possible, like the Civil Rights Movement, I'm not taking her advice all that much.

 

That also doesn't change that fact that instead of using her connections to help keep mages safe, she'd rather start a civil war because she doesn't have power anymore.



#97
thesuperdarkone2

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Ah, that's better. In a paternalistic, condescending sort of indulgence.

 

So, in other news, you've had a few more months. Found that codex yet?

And why are you so hung up on that codex? Got nothing better to do? or do you want to end up like TheDarkKnightReturns?



#98
thesuperdarkone2

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The ignore button is such a great tool



#99
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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So, in other news, you've had a few more months. Found that codex yet?

 

pennywise-the-clown.png

Psst. Hey, Dean, wanna see that mage codex?



#100
TheKomandorShepard

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Bad troll is bad.

 

How do you explain nobody complaining about mage freedom if Leliana is divine? All trespasser showed me is that people have no problem with mage freedom once mages prove themselves. However, they are a bunch of racists who deserve a kick in the rear. It may take a while, but I'll happily support Divine Leliana and that's why I always keep the Inquisition while Leliana is Divine.

 

Divine Leliana has already proven mage freedom can work. Vivienne is just a ****** that can't handle being irrelevant in mage politics and starts a mage civil war because she wants to be on top. Vivienne can go to hell.

 

Divine Leliana is still my best divine. Whether you believe it or not is your problem. Sorry if logic like that is too hard to grasp in your narrow viewpoint.

 

Not rly, all it has shown she is writer pet and mary sue that bends setting to her will to the point it contradicts everything setting has established concerning mages.Leliana ending is completely out of the touch with reality as well ignores what was established previously in the series effectively destroying complex issue that had no good solution that would made everyone happy and turning it into simplistic and unrealistic "freedom will solve everything".

 

Trying sell that people wouldn't have problem with mages freedom is ridiculous considering they already didn't want mages free and reasons why they wouldn't want mages free would only dramatically increase with mages freedom. 

 

 

Considering that in Divine Leliana's ending, once the Circles are dissolved the mages decide to make their own college where mages can protect each other and study in peace, plus Asunder showing mages were still not going to rebel despite the circles becoming actual prisons and harsher restrictions on them until Lambert decided to declare war on them, all goes to show that the mages of the south aren't going to become Tevinter anytime soon and they just want to be left in peace and be treated like people.

 

Heck, Divine Vivienne is more likely to result in Tevinter 2.0 than anything Divine Leliana does.

 

 

Also, Vivienne points start to fall apart considering she wasn't subject to some of the harsher restrictions. She wasn't around for the prison circle era of Asunder so she has no right to talk. Also, she only has her position after whoring herself out to an influential noble so I'll take anything she says with a grain of salt. Furthermore, that doesn't change the fact that if she dislikes you, she can outright tell you that she thinks mages will always be hated and that nothing should be done to improve the reputation of mages. Considering history has shown that yes, trying to improve things despite opposition is possible, like the Civil Rights Movement, I'm not taking her advice all that much.

 

That also doesn't change that fact that instead of using her connections to help keep mages safe, she'd rather start a civil war because she doesn't have power anymore.

 

That is just out of the touch with reality , basically your argument that under Leliana mages won't go badly because they have pure hearts and are incorruptible (lol).I don't think that your argument needs further refuting.

 

No, they aren't more likely become Tevinter under Viviene, i have already explained why.