54 réponses à ce sujet

[Dorrieb]

Wicked Hearts and Wicked Eyes is often cited as the best part of DA:I, with good reason, and it's my favourite part as well. Instead of carving your way through hordes of enemies, you have to impress the privileged aristocracy of Orlais, while at the same time sneaking through the Palace of Halamshiral, unraveling a web of intrigue, and solving a mystery or two along the way. You fight assassins dressed as performers from the commedia dell'arte for what I'm sure are very good reasons. It's just cool.

 

But how well does it fit into the story? After you've done all of that, Leliana presents you with a choice:

 

'We can save Celene, as we came here to do, or we can let her be assassinated. Either way we win.'

What?

'Corphy needs chaos and conflict. If we save Celene, she stays on the throne and order is restored, so we win. If we let her die, Gaspard takes the throne, order is restored, and we also win.'

So either Celene dies, or she lives, and it makes no difference for our purposes?

'Yes.'

Then would you mind telling me what exactly we are even doing here?

'We came here to decide, one way or the other.'

But why? It's not as if the throne of Orlais is any of our business. The only reason we came here was to prevent Corphy from starting that alternate future where you look like Emperor Palpatine, and as far as that goes, you just said that it makes no difference what we do here.

'We prevent that future just by being here.'

How? And for that matter, what is Corphy playing at? I'm not sure I buy that he needs chaos and conflict, but that's what we have right now. If he assassinates Celene, he resolves that conflict and restores order. Whether he succeeds or he doesn't, we still win, so what's his goal? What is his win scenario?

'He can't win. Whether Celene lives or dies, he loses.'

So he's stupid, but why do we care?

'It's very simple: If you choose to save Celene, that will be the decision that saves the world. If you choose to let her die, then that will be the decision that saves the world.'

Then you're saying that it doesn't matter what I decide, only that I am the one that makes the decision?

'Exactly.'

I see. I should have noticed this earlier, but you're stark bonkers insane, aren't you?

'Yup.'

 

Is there a side of it that I'm not seeing here?

[Paragonslustre]

Snipped

Is there a side of it that I'm not seeing here?

Yes - you get to go to the ball, Cinderella

[Taki17]

If the Inquistion were not to attend the party, and Celene dies and Gaspard becomes the emperor, he would be heavily influenced by his sister, who happens to be the agent of the Venatori. So if the Inquistion does not expose/depose Florianne, she will be instrumental in helping Corypheus move through the country without much problems, plus she can secure large ammount of resources for the Venatori to use.

 

But since the Inquiisiton goes to the party, Florianne's plan will be uncovered, so if Gaspard were to take the throne, there won't be anyone influencing him (except Briala, but she's not affiliated with Corypheus, altohugh it migth be interesting to see how things turn out in the future (considering the elven uprising and such) with Briala being the one who rules from the shadows). So in the end, no matter who takes the throne, that person will not be affiliated with the enemy in any way and will owe his life, throne, alliance and gratitude to the Inquistion, and thus, they gain a new ally who (even indirectly) would have aided they enemy.

[Dorrieb]

If the Inquistion were not to attend the party, and Celene dies and Gaspard becomes the emperor, he would be heavily influenced by his sister, who happens to be the agent of the Venatori. So if the Inquistion does not expose/depose Florianne, she will be instrumental in helping Corypheus move through the country without much problems, plus she can secure large ammount of resources for the Venatori to use.

 

Maybe, except neither you nor your advisors know that when you go there. You did not go there to expose Florianne. You did not even know about Florianne.

[Pokemario]

Corypheus wanted to kill Celene and blame Gaspard for it, so that he couldn't ascend to the throne (that's why Florianne strikes at her in front of the entire court, and even tells everyone how this was Gaspard's plan when it really wasn't)

[yuri7227]

Maybe, except neither you nor your advisors know that when you go there. You did not go there to expose Florianne. You did not even know about Florianne.

 

True. But when I get information that my enemy is going to make a large political move, then it would seem logical that he's making this move to further his goals. Thus it would be in my best interest to stop him.

 

Also letting Celene be assassinated... I'm sorry writers but I don't see how an assassinated empress wouldn't result in chaos. So we are expected to believe that Gaspard (and whoever pulls the strings from the shadows) will just take her place just like that wihout any from of (political) backlash? 

Kinda seems unlikely to me.

[Knight of Dane]

Corypheus wanted to kill Celene and blame Gaspard for it, so that he couldn't ascend to the throne (that's why Florianne strikes at her in front of the entire court, and even tells everyone how this was Gaspard's plan when it really wasn't)

 

Exactly this. Kill Celene, blame Gaspard, Florianne takes the throne and hands Orlais to Corypheus.

 

What the Inquisition's presence disrupts is Florianne's ability to get away with the plan.

 

One thing I would have absolutely loved would have been to talk Florianne down in the courtyard and side with her for her support. Let her go through with the plan, not reveal it and gain her support against Corypheus effectively backstabbing the Venatori.

Maybe not a good choice, but any choice like that in a RPG would have been awesome.

[AlanC9]

The problem was more with the setup for WEWH. Cory looks like he's using an Underpants Gnomes plan, until we find out that Florianne is his Step 2. OTOH, we do know that he really did have a step 2 since the plan would have worked.

[vbibbi]

The problem was more with the setup for WEWH. Cory looks like he's using an Underpants Gnomes plan, until we find out that Florianne is his Step 2. OTOH, we do know that he really did have a step 2 since the plan would have worked.

I loved Isabela's reference to the underpants gnomes in DA2. That is all. /OT

[Dai Grepher]

It makes sense. Cory's plan was to have Florrienne kill Celene (probably by using one of the Harlequins), frame Gaspard for it, and thus Orlais' nobles would be thrown into chaos and would not be able to agree on a new leader. This would cause more warring between the noble houses. All of Orlais would be plunged into chaos, making them easy pickings for the demon army.

 

By attending the ball, you are able to figure out that Florrienne planned to kill Celene under Corypheus' orders. Which means even if Celene dies, and Florrienne tries to frame Gaspard, the Inquisition is there to back Gaspard up with evidence against Florrienne and Corypheus. Thus Gaspard becomes emperor and prevents Orlais from being thrown into chaos.

 

As for what Leliana says, what I wrote above is her rationale. She speculates that Corypheus only needed chaos to ensue. Eliminating Orlais' leader and slandering the only other possible candidate for the throne would have achieved that. So she feels confident in recommending that they let Celene die and go with Gaspard who will be a stronger military ally. Cullen agrees, and states that Celene is inferior because she led Orlais to the current crisis in the first place. This is also why none of the nobles are all that sorry to see Celene go.

 

However, my Inquisitor disagreed with both of them. They were assuming that Celene's assassination was only about causing chaos. But it was possible that there was something else about Celene that made her a special threat to Corypheus, and eliminating that special threat is what he was really after. Leliana thought she had it all figured out, but she failed to consider the possibility that there was something else about the situation that she could not see. And besides all that, allowing Celene to die when you could prevent it makes you responsible for the murder as well. He was there to protect Celene from their common enemy, and to stop the enemy's plot. So for my Inquisitor the situation was pretty cut and dry.

[nightscrawl]

Wicked Hearts and Wicked Eyes is often cited as the best part of DA:I, with good reason...

It is?! New news to me.

 

The concept is a good one, I completely agree, but the execution is wanting. They took the Grande Game and made it too gamey with the halla statues and court approval mechanic. While I do think that it is unrealistic that the player should be able to explore every nook and cranny of the palace while the ball is going on (the absence of the Inquisitor would be noted after a time), neither do I think that the court approval was the way to go about ensuring that we don't dawdle.

 

They also made poor use of the two followers who should be been a great help during this whole mess: Vivienne and Sera. Vivienne was used not at all, and Sera's worth amounted to getting useless loot. Now, I don't think that the use of these followers should have been required, but allowing the player to have an alternate path would have been nice.

[Dai Grepher]

It could have been done better.

Climbing up the grating behind a crowd of nobles was just too blatant. It should have only been possible if you told Maryden to sing a song and distract the nobles, and you'd have to wait for all of them to move toward her. Or else tell Varric to distract them if you brought him.

Cole should have been able to read people, or go to blocked off areas of the palace while the Inquisitor stayed visible.

Abernache should have showed up in some capacity as well, if you took the templar path and he lived.

I think having Alistair or Anora show up there also would have been good. More screen time. Also a bonus if the Hero is a joint-ruling monarch with one of them and was in a relationship with Leliana. And she is announced as the Hero's mistress with Alistair or Anora present to hear it and maybe comment on it.

[Nefla]

Yeah I always thought that was dumb as well OP. The (IMO water thin) excuse is that if Gaspard is implicated there will be war and unrest and such but...there's already war and unrest. Celine and Gaspard's war and succession have zero impact on stopping Corypheus. The way to not achieve that future with Palpatine-Leliana?

 

Step 1: Don't let the inquisitor, the only person in Thedas with the ability to seal the breach die (dangerous and unnecessary diversions such as confronting an assassin directly threaten this)

Step 2: Kill Corypheus

 

Where does Orlais fit into this at all? Those 6 or so Orlesian soldiers fighting mooks in the Arbor wilds? We had to save them all anyway...

 

Yes - you get to go to the ball, Cinderella

In that hideous outfit? Where's my sparkly dress?!

[In Exile]

Wicked Hearts and Wicked Eyes is often cited as the best part of DA:I, with good reason, and it's my favourite part as well. Instead of carving your way through hordes of enemies, you have to impress the privileged aristocracy of Orlais, while at the same time sneaking through the Palace of Halamshiral, unraveling a web of intrigue, and solving a mystery or two along the way. You fight assassins dressed as performers from the commedia dell'arte for what I'm sure are very good reasons. It's just cool.

 

But how well does it fit into the story? After you've done all of that, Leliana presents you with a choice:

 

'We can save Celene, as we came here to do, or we can let her be assassinated. Either way we win.'

What?

'Corphy needs chaos and conflict. If we save Celene, she stays on the throne and order is restored, so we win. If we let her die, Gaspard takes the throne, order is restored, and we also win.'

So either Celene dies, or she lives, and it makes no difference for our purposes?

'Yes.'

Then would you mind telling me what exactly we are even doing here?

'We came here to decide, one way or the other.'

But why? It's not as if the throne of Orlais is any of our business. The only reason we came here was to prevent Corphy from starting that alternate future where you look like Emperor Palpatine, and as far as that goes, you just said that it makes no difference what we do here.

'We prevent that future just by being here.'

How? And for that matter, what is Corphy playing at? I'm not sure I buy that he needs chaos and conflict, but that's what we have right now. If he assassinates Celene, he resolves that conflict and restores order. Whether he succeeds or he doesn't, we still win, so what's his goal? What is his win scenario?

'He can't win. Whether Celene lives or dies, he loses.'

So he's stupid, but why do we care?

'It's very simple: If you choose to save Celene, that will be the decision that saves the world. If you choose to let her die, then that will be the decision that saves the world.'

Then you're saying that it doesn't matter what I decide, only that I am the one that makes the decision?

'Exactly.'

I see. I should have noticed this earlier, but you're stark bonkers insane, aren't you?

'Yup.'

 

Is there a side of it that I'm not seeing here?

 

Yes. What you're missing is that if the Inquisitor doesn't intervene, Orlais doesn't actually consolidate behind Gaspard. If Celene dies when the Inquisitor is there, everything is blamed on Corypheus, Gaspard is exonerated, and his sister takes the fall. The civil war goes on, and the Inquisition can't acquire the Orlesian forces it desperately needs to match up with Corypheus. Without those troops, the Arbor Wilds is impossible. 

 

Yeah I always thought that was dumb as well OP. The (IMO water thin) excuse is that if Gaspard is implicated there will be war and unrest and such but...there's already war and unrest. Celine and Gaspard's war and succession have zero impact on stopping Corypheus. The way to not achieve that future with Palpatine-Leliana?

 

Step 1: Don't let the inquisitor, the only person in Thedas with the ability to seal the breach die (dangerous and unnecessary diversions such as confronting an assassin directly threaten this)

Step 2: Kill Corypheus

 

Where does Orlais fit into this at all? Those 6 or so Orlesian soldiers fighting mooks in the Arbor wilds? We had to save them all anyway...

 

In that hideous outfit? Where's my sparkly dress?!

 

Celene and Gaspard's war have a clear effect on stopping Corypheus: the Inquisition needs their army. The game doesn't portray it well, but there are two parts to the plot against Orlais: 1) Corypheus wants to destabilize it and continue the civil war, and have the Orlesians exhaust their troops fighting each other and 2) Corypheus wants to overrun it with demons.

 

If you prevent 2 by finishing into the Abyss, Corypheus still wins with 1) by buying himself enough time to get to the Well of Mythal first, stripping you of the means you use to finally kill him. 

 

There's a big gulf between the game not portraying it well, and the plot not making sense. 

 

And your complaint about the Inquisitor applies to every RPG. Once you recognize the insanity of the danger that RPG protagonists are exposed to every moment of every day, the entire basic premise of an RPG breaks down, and you should play XCOM instead. 

[nightscrawl]

^ I think that "the game doesn't portray it well" is a running problem with DAI. I enjoy the game a great deal. It is in fact my favorite of the series, but I think they went too big and too ambitious, and some of the smaller world-building elements suffered for it.

 

I don't mind the developer allowing the player to infer certain things; 1+1=2, and that's fine, but I think they relied on this a bit too much. The entire Orlesian civil war, and by extension WEWH, is an example of this failing. This is a huge crisis. Orlais, and her stability, is significant for all of Thedas, primarily due to economy and trade with other nations, and this was not shown in the game at all. Instead it's reduced to petty noble grievances that happens to drag along some few thousand soldiers, and devastate only a single area (the Exalted Plains).

[In Exile]

^ I think that "the game doesn't portray it well" is a running problem with DAI. I enjoy the game a great deal. It is in fact my favorite of the series, but I think they went too big and too ambitious, and some of the smaller world-building elements suffered for it.

 

I don't mind the developer allowing the player to infer certain things; 1+1=2, and that's fine, but I think they relied on this a bit too much. The entire Orlesian civil war, and by extension WEWH, is an example of this failing. This is a huge crisis. Orlais, and her stability, is significant for all of Thedas, primarily due to economy and trade with other nations, and this was not shown in the game at all. Instead it's reduced to petty noble grievances that happens to drag along some few thousand soldiers, and devastate only a single area (the Exalted Plains).

 

The game doesn't portray it well is also an understatement, because the game often portrays it badly, and undercuts the value in the vision by executing it so poorly. The problem is that Bioware's writing is too disorganized for the kind of stories they want to tell now. ME2 worked for them - and I recognize it's a different team - because they essentially had a lot of disconnected modular vignettes with absolutely no central theme or purpose. So like high quality episodic writing, they could just work on each set piece independently of the others as their resources allowed.

 

A central plot - and one that tries to be as thematic as DAI tried - needs a really coherent vision not just from the writing side but from the creative/project direction side. And Bioware has never brought that kind of creative vision to the table. The ME team is almost a case study in what not to do to execute such a vision, but DA is also a big offender across all three games.

 

Bioware has a talented roster of creative talent that can do episodic content well (which is why you often see their DLC as being high quality - whether as good as the best parts of their previous game, or actually the best part of the game) but can't get it together for the product as a whole.

 

If the game is about showing a crisis, your game mechanics, zone design, quests, etc. all have to be build around that idea. Which means the creative lead has to make sure all these elements work as a coherent whole. That never happens in a Bioware game. 

[Cute Nug]

Demons are pouring out of holes in the fade throughout Thedas. Let's have a fancy party to decide what idiot will be the ruler of Orlais ... but not until the Inquisitor we won't talk to is done rescuing livestock, collecting pointless shards, and killing Grey Spawn.

 

We save the Orlesion armies in the not so exalted plains with just 1-4 people. The Orlais army seems a pretty useless ally any way,

 

If Gaspard, Celine, and Flo are shining examples of the art of The Grand Game can we just start calling it The Kinda Meh Game.

 

Where is sarcastic Hawke to at least comment on the farce that is Orless in DAI! How is there no option for mockery of Orless during Wicked Farts and Wicked Eyes,

[Dorrieb]

Yes. What you're missing is that if the Inquisitor doesn't intervene, Orlais doesn't actually consolidate behind Gaspard. If Celene dies when the Inquisitor is there, everything is blamed on Corypheus...

 

That's an interesting theory, but I don't think the writing supports it. In fact, considering how most people feel about the Inquisition, and that most of them don't even know that Corphy exists, I would say it's much more likely that if Celene dies when the Inquisitor is there, everything is blamed on the Inquisitor, unless everyone suddenly decides to accept that they are in a story and the Inquisitor is the protagonist.

 

What it sounds like to me, actually, is a thinly-veiled excuse to fantasize about being 'the Man' and deciding the fate of nations, because someone thinks that having a god complex is cool, which is a problem I have with DA:I generally.

[Nefla]

Celene and Gaspard's war have a clear effect on stopping Corypheus: the Inquisition needs their army. The game doesn't portray it well, but there are two parts to the plot against Orlais: 1) Corypheus wants to destabilize it and continue the civil war, and have the Orlesians exhaust their troops fighting each other and 2) Corypheus wants to overrun it with demons.

 

If you prevent 2 by finishing into the Abyss, Corypheus still wins with 1) by buying himself enough time to get to the Well of Mythal first, stripping you of the means you use to finally kill him. 

 

There's a big gulf between the game not portraying it well, and the plot not making sense. 

 

And your complaint about the Inquisitor applies to every RPG. Once you recognize the insanity of the danger that RPG protagonists are exposed to every moment of every day, the entire basic premise of an RPG breaks down, and you should play XCOM instead. 

The game's tell-don't show approach and poor implementation of a lot of their plot points were some of my biggest problems with the game.

 

As for game heroes being put at risk, this is one of the main reasons I hate the whole "special snowflake chosen one who is the only one capable of saving the world" thing.

[vbibbi]

It is?! New news to me.

 

The concept is a good one, I completely agree, but the execution is wanting. They took the Grande Game and made it too gamey with the halla statues and court approval mechanic. While I do think that it is unrealistic that the player should be able to explore every nook and cranny of the palace while the ball is going on (the absence of the Inquisitor would be noted after a time), neither do I think that the court approval was the way to go about ensuring that we don't dawdle.

 

They also made poor use of the two followers who should be been a great help during this whole mess: Vivienne and Sera. Vivienne was used not at all, and Sera's worth amounted to getting useless loot. Now, I don't think that the use of these followers should have been required, but allowing the player to have an alternate path would have been nice.

I would have liked the option to not engage in combat for the entire quest. An option, mind, so those who still wanted to fight could do so. I think Mark of the Assassin was a better demonstration of a political quest, with the options for getting inside the castle, sneaking around rather than outright combat, sabotaging the wyvern in the final battle with the stank food. And agreed, it was shocking how Vivienne was irrelevant in the quest.

 

 

I also just really don't like that the advisors change tactics in the middle of the quest. I would think (hope!) that every mission we undertake goes through extensive strategy sessions and well thought-out tactics before we go into the field. And presumably this would have occurred here (although since Josephine decides we didn't need any lessons on the Game before she meets us at the WP entrance might suggest otherwise) and the Inquisitor would have a good plan: save the Empress, save the world.

 

And then as soon as we learn a little more, Leliana is suddenly okay with letting Celene die and seeking help from an elf who, at this point, is not a noble and is no longer in favor in the court. I guess Briala's power comes from her elven network, but that is not going to be as useful as the Orlesian throne with the Orlesian army behind it.

 

Like...did Leliana have a contingency plan if she discovered Celene was not essential? The entire point of the quest before we arrive at the WP is to save Celene, why would we even consider "well I know we want to save the Empress, but hear me out, if we find a better candidate for the throne, let's back them instead!"

[In Exile]

The game's tell-don't show approach and poor implementation of a lot of their plot points were some of my biggest problems with the game.

As for game heroes being put at risk, this is one of the main reasons I hate the whole "special snowflake chosen one who is the only one capable of saving the world" thing.

That is every single RPG. You're either special because you've get the magic plot macguffin (like in DAO) or because you're so amazing at fighting you might as well be a demi-god (DA2) or both (DAI or ME1). There's no middle ground on that point. This is no less stupid than the endgame fight in DAO, except that instead of risking your life in small fireteams you're doing it in the vanguard of an army.

Bioware's always been a tell and not shown developer. They just pushed down the tell even further - before you were told things by NPCs when talking to them via lore dumps. Now it's the same mechanism as in TES games - plot by way of journal entries.

[In Exile]

That's an interesting theory, but I don't think the writing supports it. In fact, considering how most people feel about the Inquisition, and that most of them don't even know that Corphy exists, I would say it's much more likely that if Celene dies when the Inquisitor is there, everything is blamed on the Inquisitor, unless everyone suddenly decides to accept that they are in a story and the Inquisitor is the protagonist.

What it sounds like to me, actually, is a thinly-veiled excuse to fantasize about being 'the Man' and deciding the fate of nations, because someone thinks that having a god complex is cool, which is a problem I have with DA:I generally.

The actuallt is actually really inconsistent on whether Corypheus is known at all in Orlais. Depending on the ambient conversation it sounds both like he is and he isn't. Similarly the Inquisition's own standing is really inconsistent - heretics to something else.

[ThePhoenixKing]

I don't mind the developer allowing the player to infer certain things; 1+1=2, and that's fine, but I think they relied on this a bit too much. The entire Orlesian civil war, and by extension WEWH, is an example of this failing. This is a huge crisis. Orlais, and her stability, is significant for all of Thedas, primarily due to economy and trade with other nations, and this was not shown in the game at all. Instead it's reduced to petty noble grievances that happens to drag along some few thousand soldiers, and devastate only a single area (the Exalted Plains).

 

You're right, and what's worse is that this had been built up a great deal in both DA2 and the novels. The Orlesian Civil War should be a big deal: it's the most powerful nation on Thedas tearing itself apart, its already Byzantine and unstable politics spiraling out of control, and not only do we barely see it, but the entire thing is resolved over the course of a single party?

 

Compare and contrast this to, say, the war between Nilfgaard and Redania in the Witcher 3, or even the Ferelden Civil War in Origins. In both instances, we got a much better sense of what was going on, actually saw parts of the conflict, and their resolution was a difficult affair. Here, it's nothing, yet another plot point Bioware simply failed to either portray or resolve effectively.

 

The game's tell-don't show approach and poor implementation of a lot of their plot points were some of my biggest problems with the game.

 

Agreed, and the fact that it's a problem throughout most of the game is the frustrating bit. I'm struggling to think of a single major plot thread that doesn't conclude either in an anticlimax or in a contrived fashion.

[Seraphim24]

Well nowadays it does feel like "episodic" is kind of Bioware's method of doing things... but NWN and the BG series had a lot more engaging "overarching" feel to it in many ways, at least as compared to DA and ME.

[In Exile]

You're right, and what's worse is that this had been built up a great deal in both DA2 and the novels. The Orlesian Civil War should be a big deal: it's the most powerful nation on Thedas tearing itself apart, its already Byzantine and unstable politics spiraling out of control, and not only do we barely see it, but the entire thing is resolved over the course of a single party?

 

Compare and contrast this to, say, the war between Nilfgaard and Redania in the Witcher 3, or even the Ferelden Civil War in Origins. In both instances, we got a much better sense of what was going on, actually saw parts of the conflict, and their resolution was a difficult affair. Here, it's nothing, yet another plot point Bioware simply failed to either portray or resolve effectively.

 

 

Agreed, and the fact that it's a problem throughout most of the game is the frustrating bit. I'm struggling to think of a single major plot thread that doesn't conclude either in an anticlimax or in a contrived fashion.

 

The Fereldan civil war is really stupid. We shouldn't use that as the measuring stick for anything. In fact, DA:O is a great example of why Bioware should stay away from any political plot forever. Orzammar was great stuff, but everything about Ferelden is just rank insanity, and all of it is the result of Bioware's unwillingness to just make Loghain an opportunist. Instead, we have a bumbling moron, an insane arling, and the Landsmeet gripping the idiot ball for dear life. Orlais is bad, but at least it didn't overshadow the plot in DA:O.