291 réponses à ce sujet

[Onewomanarmy]

I'm torn. I wouldn't even be born if there wasn't a Vietnam war.

 

And yet....I still have to judge it.

 

Awww I wasn't making fun of the war I was making fun of the actors......

[Prince Enigmatic]

What about SWTOR? Isn't Empire the more popular side in that game? Imperial Agent, Sith Warrior & Inquisitor had the best class stories and it proves that Bioware is very capable of making great stories with us playing the villain.

 

The only thing I didn't like was that you couldn't switch sides... same with original ME trilogy. It would've been great if you could've sided with the Cerberus instead of the Alliance in ME3.

 

I personally would always side with the Alliance, but having that option would have been very interesting, since I feel there was a sort of divide among fans about ME2 where Cerberus were concerned. Some weren't happy that Shepard worked with Cerberus, others loved it, and wanted to continue working with them in ME3.

[straykat]

Awww I wasn't making fun of the war I was making fun of the actors......

 

Oh no prob. In any case, that actor did a hell of a job. He usually wasn't as good in other films.

[Onewomanarmy]

Oh no prob. In any case, that actor did a hell of a job. He usually wasn't as good in other films.

 

I'm sure he did. I always joke outrageously, don't take me too seriously. My humour can be a bit hard to get sometimes cause Danish people are a bit special that way lol, outsiders don't always get our jokes or humour but I'm hardly ever serious  

[straykat]

I'm sure he did. I always joke outrageously, don't take me too seriously. My humour can be a bit hard to get sometimes cause Danish people are a bit special that way lol, outsiders don't always get our jokes or humour but I'm hardly ever serious

 

lol.. well, my Dad is part Danish. He's got a sick sense of humor too

[fizzypop]

It would be nice if you would put more than a gif. Udina is a prime example, he pushes for the humans to have a seat on the council and always talking about human rights, but forgets that humans joined the intergalactic community fairly recently. They expect to just show up and be handed a prized position while many other races don't even have it. Same with the way we expect the council to just show up and put their own planets at risk to help us as soon as the reapers show up. We can empathize with that position because we are human, but if you look at it logically we are kind of the assholes of the galaxy. ME2 you had the option of being a royal **** to everyone and everything. I loved ME2 for that reason, but to act like we aren't entitled little shits is pretty funny. We absolutely are portrayed as entitled in ME universe.

[Onewomanarmy]

lol.. well, my Dad is part Danish. He's got a sick sense of humor too

 

Haha nice!!

[straykat]

It would be nice if you would put more than a gif. Udina is a prime example, he pushes for the humans to have a seat on the council and always talking about human rights, but forgets that humans joined the intergalactic community fairly recently. They expect to just show up and be handed a prized position while many other races don't even have it. Same with the way we expect the council to just show up and put their own planets at risk to help us as soon as the reapers show up. We can empathize with that position because we are human, but if you look at it logically we are kind of the assholes of the galaxy. ME2 you had the option of being a royal **** to everyone and everything. I loved ME2 for that reason, but to act like we aren't entitled little shits is pretty funny. We absolutely are portrayed as entitled in ME universe.

 

I'm gonna disagree with that actually. I don't think it's unreasonable for humans/Udina to demand that level of respect. But I also think other races should do that too. I believe in all of them being self-sufficient, and not depending on some overarching Council to dictate everything.. down to their fleet sizes.

 

I don't think it's villainous to go about this way.. it's just competitiveness. Where it's a fair game for anyone. The Council just plays a game no one else can win.

[fizzypop]

I would argue there are examples of human characters who do act like this, Udina being the first that springs to mind. But humanity as a whole, I don't think so throughout the entire trilogy. At the start yes, and we see this trend continue in ME1. But I felt it was only Cerberus who were still wanting more following ME1's events. 

 

I definitely would like to see humanity be portrayed or at least explored more in terms of morally grey actions, since we as a species have an extensive back log of heinous examples of invading other places and staking claim to a place that wasn't rightfully ours. 

I think even Shepard at times acted fairly entitled, but that doesn't bother me. That's real life. Though I get your point. I agree with you. I would love to really see that fully explored.

[fizzypop]

I'm gonna disagree with that actually. I don't think it's unreasonable for humans/Udina to demand that level of respect. But I also think other races should do that too. I believe in all of them being self-sufficient, and not depending on some overarching Council to dictate everythings.. down to their fleet sizes.

 

I don't think it's villainous to go about this way.. it's just competitiveness. Where it's a fair game for anyone. The Council just plays a game no one else can win.

We look at it that way though because we are human and we think that's normal. We call it "competitiveness" instead of paying our dues. I'm not even saying I disagree with you entirely. I just think you can't really believe that humans aren't entitled and haven't ever acted like assholes. We have. I would love to see more of it because the reality is everything is more grey than it is white/black.

[straykat]

We look at it that way though because we are human and we think that's normal. We call it "competitiveness" instead of paying our dues. I'm not even saying I disagree with you entirely. I just think you can't really believe that humans aren't entitled and haven't ever acted like assholes. We have. I would love to see more of it because the reality is everything is more grey than it is white/black.

 

Oh, they can be that way. I won't disagree there.

 

In the Mass Effect setting, I would just add that humans could also serve as inspiration for Volus/Hanar/etc to stop waiting and demand their own respect too. The humans don't necessarily have to be so demanding for their own sake. It's more of an Anti-Council stance than an Anti-Alien stance. Decentralizing power can be a "good" thing. It's why I destroy the Reapers too... they're ultimately no different than the Council. Control freaks. Just better at it. Same with Cerberus as well.

[Andrew Lucas]

It would be nice if you would put more than a gif. Udina is a prime example, he pushes for the humans to have a seat on the council and always talking about human rights, but forgets that humans joined the intergalactic community fairly recently. They expect to just show up and be handed a prized position while many other races don't even have it. Same with the way we expect the council to just show up and put their own planets at risk to help us as soon as the reapers show up. We can empathize with that position because we are human, but if you look at it logically we are kind of the assholes of the galaxy. ME2 you had the option of being a royal **** to everyone and everything. I loved ME2 for that reason, but to act like we aren't entitled little shits is pretty funny. We absolutely are portrayed as entitled in ME universe.

Udina is doing his job, everyone wants a seat, we're no different.

We wanted an alliance, the Council didn't, so Shepard alone had to build everything from nothing, and that culminates with the ending of the war, because of the group effort Shepard created.

In ME2 you had the option, don't assume everyone was a jerk just because you were one.

[straykat]

I think the Council stance is more of a "Chaos/Order" thing rather than Good/Evil per se. Same with Destroy and Control. The good/evil elements in Mass Effect revolve around other issues.

[ArcadiaGrey]

I doubt they'd make you a bad guy but the option to play the game that way would be fantastic.  However it'd take a lot of work on their part.  The worry would be that you get the dialogue options and even choices to do it, but then there'd be no consequences and the game plays out the same way regardless.

 

A step in the right direction would be true consequences to selfish or cruel actions.  To be able to screw things up, to have companions be mad with you or support your ruthlessness, authorities start to distrust you, and those who were on your side start to reconsider and walk away.

 

Such things are often hinted at in DA:I for example, but rarely play out to actual in game consequences.  If you could be a terrible Inquisitor (either through stupidity or being evil) then have the advisors get angry and wish they'd never chosen you, maybe even demoting you and taking control towards the end of the game, it would have been pretty great.

 

But no doubt in ME:A we're the hero in a heroic tale that has to have an unselfish protagonist for the story to make any sense.

[Lyrandori]

The closest I've seen BioWare implementing a "Play the Evil Guy" mechanic well enough is in Star Wars: The Old Republic. You can play as a Sith, and I have to say that whoever wrote the Sith Warrior story arc (all main Chapters) is awesome. I was able to fully role-play each chapters and immerse myself in them, their context, the characters I met and the scenarios I dealt with. But I genuinely felt horrible taking many of the Dark Side decisions (two of them in particular gave me a strong feeling of guilt, and made me take a pause to realize that BioWare nailed it). Normally, when I role-play my character(s) I try as much as I can to not take "Out of Character" decisions (I.E. that the decisions I make are NOT the ones that I myself in real life would have chosen, but rather what my character would have done). However, there were a few instances where I just blinked in shock at the choices I had given the situation, but I took those dark decisions nonetheless for the purpose of keeping my Sith's alignment intact. Some of the dark side decisions you have the choice to make are legitimately just plain evil, some are just literally straight up monstrous (being evil for the sake of it, without purpose or reason other than pure hatred fueling the decision making "process").

 

However, "evil" is often defined differently by pretty much everyone. Now of course, many would agree on a couple of points, but it's never unanimous. Being "good", in the other hand, is a much easier 'extreme' to portray and execute in a game. You save innocents? You're a good person. You save a child's life? You're good. You help refugees, give them food, health care and shelter? You're good. You save a primitive tribe escaping a nearby erupting volcano? You're good. You reconcile people together? Yep, you're good. You cure a disease? You're good. You fix daddy issues? You're Shep- I mean you're good. Ok, with this said, now what makes a person "evil"? What IS evil? As I said, some things are easily described as 'evil acts', but when it comes to evil there's always at least a number (small or not) of people whom believe that there might have been actual "good reasons" that would explain the so called "act of evil", excusing it and/or the person(s) who committed it. If I take the Sith Warrior example from The Old Republic, I myself happen to perceive many of my dark side decisions being plain evil. But there's definitely someone out there shrugging at the entire Sith campaign and saying something along the lines of "Meh, wasn't that evil, I could do worse in real life".

 

As others have mentioned, there's also 'purpose', sometimes. What if the purpose is the "greater good"? Again, taking the Sith example from Old Republic, most players going full dark side would probably role-play a Sith whose obsession and nigh only reason of existence is - ultimately - the Greater Good of the Sith Empire. If you have to kill innocents for the ultimate interests of the Sith Empire, you'll do it without the slightest hint of hesitation (and humanity). If you are ordered to go kill a 'problematic' Sith Apprentice that starts to ****** off your Master, especially if your Master merely throws in the line "...because it will make the Sith Empire stronger!" you will do it with the greatest of pleasures and you'll even fuel your hatred from the kill. If we go further and try to put ourselves in the shoes of such a Sith character within the context of the game's timeline and events, then I'm almost certain that we'd understand that - in the mind of such a Sith - the very word 'evil' probably doesn't exist, or at least wouldn't be applicable to his/her actions. In his/her mind, killing that "innocent" was a necessity for the Empire, rather than merely being a random act of evil. It's pragmatism to its coldest, yet most efficient form. And is usually a matter of individual perceptions. The Sith would most likely just be furious and feel insulted if one would "acuse" him of "You're... you're SO EVIL!!! STHAP!!!", the Sith would probably just frown, ignite his lightsaber and yell "Pathetic weakling!!!" before cutting you in half. But that's not because he's evil, it's because he's been brainwashed into believing that showing mercy is unacceptable and that removing the weak link from the chain (of the Empire, or merely of 'life' in general) will make either himself or at least the Empire stronger in the end (even if the person killed was a random Joe in some forgotten corner of Coruscant who had absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the ultimate 'health' and status of the Sith Empire).

 

Anyway, my point here is that I think that BioWare might be able to give us an optional 'evil' route for our protagonist, but it wouldn't be just plain evil. It think that it would have more in common with just being a first class Renegade douchebag than actually being evil. There's something important to consider for Andromeda, contrarily to the examples I gave from Old Republic; the protagonist in Andromeda is not acting alone, or at least he/she's not acting on the behalf of only one or two other persons (well, as far as I can imagine anyway). What I mean is that the OTHER people surrounding the protagonist would NOT just blindly let you being evil for the sake of it, only to have a good laugh about that innocent child you just killed in that alien village on your way back to the ARK. If BioWare was to implement actual chaotic evil material in Andromeda, then they would have to branch out to a million (manner of speech) other variables coming from your crew and squadmates commenting, and more importantly reacting to your "evil acts". It'd perhaps be to a point where if you want to continue on that path you'd have to do it alone, or maybe with just one guy left to bring with you on your missions... maybe pushing it further to a point where you'd actually be pursued by your former "friends" because you decided to go full retard mode half way through the campaign. And doing something like that for BioWare, I'm pretty sure, would require the devs another decade of development to flesh out such a complex game and narrative.

 

But you know what? Who knows really. The thing is we don't have much information about Andromeda. And the game has been delayed, giving them a good (estimated) 3 to 4 extra months to work on it than initially planned (was supposed to come out during holidays this year according to the trailer from last year's E3). Maybe, just maybe they DID plan to allow our protagonist to be evil from the start and we're just not aware of it yet. Time will tell. But what I'm convinced of right now is that if they did NOT plan to do that from the start then I'm 99% sure that they just won't start to do it right now just a year away from release, especially if they already implemented a "Paragon / Renegade" style alignment system in the game. Let alone making a game in which the ONLY role we play is one of an evil antagonist bringing desolation, destruction and suffering in his/her path, from start to finish (now an entire game like that would be profoundly depressing and I'm sure not many would like it).

[Master Warder Z_]

It won't happen. Not many people would find it fun to be the bad guy of the game. Playing and knowing that what you do is evil. People usually are fine with doing shady stuff if its in pursuit of some kind of greater goal but being the villain...

 

Would you consider killing roughly 10 to 20 million people inside five minutes shady?

 

 

I mean using nerve gas sort of ignores a few written conventions of warfare but hey...new galaxy, new rules.

 

I mean why fight a costly battle when you can just instantly kill anyone and everything within a few hundred mile radius?

[straykat]

Would you consider killing roughly 10 to 20 million people inside five minutes shady?

 

 

I mean using nerve gas sort of ignores a few written conventions of warfare but hey...new galaxy, new rules.

 

I mean why fight a costly battle when you can just instantly kill anyone and everything within a few hundred mile radius?

 

It is odd that we rely on the Japanese to tell us this.

[katamuro]

What about SWTOR? Isn't Empire the more popular side in that game? Imperial Agent, Sith Warrior & Inquisitor had the best class stories and it proves that Bioware is very capable of making great stories with us playing the villain.

 

The only thing I didn't like was that you couldn't switch sides... same with original ME trilogy. It would've been great if you could've sided with the Cerberus instead of the Alliance in ME3.

 

Thats mmorpg, people played horde in WoW and there are plenty of other examples. But people go around making other people miserable in mmorpg's too so people playing as the bad guy is not really that weird. Single player rpgs? not so much.

[Lady Artifice]

This is absolutely the last thing that I think would be great.

 

I'd really prefer that at least some of the Andromedan natives are more advanced than us, specifically to avoid a heavy handed native oppression metaphor.

[straykat]

This is absolutely the last thing that I think would be great.

 

I'd really prefer that at least some of the Andromedan natives are more advanced than us, specifically to avoid a heavy handed native oppression metaphor.

 

Perhaps it'll feel more like the Oregon Trail instead. The exact opposite of everyone's expectations.

[Master Warder Z_]

It is odd that we rely on the Japanese to tell us this.

Not really.

Tomino took inspiration from history, and other fiction to create his own franchise and making it what it became. I mean it's basically world war two in space, the vietnam war in space and desert storm in space with semi realistic science, fantasy elements and good world building.

Overall though? Gundam while Japanese in orgin is multinational in scope telling a story that crosses borders and is timeless.

._.

It also includes colony gassings.

[Lady Artifice]

Sometimes it seems like a lot of people on this forum genuinely have trouble telling the difference between a villain and an antagonist.

[straykat]

Not really.

Tomino took inspiration from history, and other fiction to create his own franchise and making it what it became. I mean it's basically world war two in space, the vietnam war in space and desert storm in space with semi realistic science, fantasy elements and good world building.

Overall though? Gundam while Japanese in orgin is multinational in scope telling a story that crosses borders and is timeless.

._.

It also includes colony gassings.

 

Yeah, but few have experienced that level of instant death. Leave it up to them to dramatize it (and dramatize it often it seems).

[ArcadiaGrey]

This is absolutely the last thing that I think would be great.

 

I'd really prefer that at least some of the Andromedan natives are more advanced than us, specifically to avoid a heavy handed native oppression metaphor.

 

Absolutely, natives with cities and new technologies that put the Citadel races in their place as one of many, not vastly superior to them.

[Akrabra]

Personally i just want more moral conflicts. I do not like the Mustache twirling evil actions as i find they have little to no substance other than stroking the ego. Which to be fair beeing a good guy is like that aswell. Just give me the balance so that the choices i have to make actually makes me think and sometimes lean in a direction i might not have because of what it might mean, or can be.