291 réponses à ce sujet

[Vortex13]

Yeah could be nice. But I don't want the aliens the be the 'poor victims' and us humans the 'evil invaders.' I want them to fight back just as hard and viciously. No black and white story, but simply the survival of the fittest. In order to survive in this new Galaxy we have to fight for our place in it and get our hands dirty. No one is innocent, etc. The aliens hate us and we hate them. Let the best man win.

 

 

Yeah the narrative needs to be balanced, there should be no good guys vs. bad guys here. A group of refugees coming in and taking land from natives is moral quagmire, and the story will only be hobbled by making one side blameless white knights. If we are going to use the colonization of the Americas as an example then we need to also include the atrocities committed by the native peoples on innocent settlers, just as much as we go on about the slaughter of natives by colonists. 

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't think BioWare will do that. They're very similar to the WOW developers over at Blizzard in that sense, they just want to play as noble paladins with a clear black and white morality.

[Vortex13]

 

 

God, if any alien species needed to be genocided it was those dumb 'holy than thou' blue cat people.

 

 

I wouldn't mind playing a Sgt. Barnes from Platoon type character to their entire species to be honest.   

[Prince Enigmatic]

God, if any alien species needed to be genocided it was those dumb 'holy than thou' blue cat people.

 

 

I wouldn't mind playing a Sgt. Barnes from Platoon type character to their entire species to be honest.   

 

Was that monologue in the film?

 

I really can't remember if it was or not. 

[straykat]

If this is gonna be another trilogy, I'd prefer this is a being a long uphill struggle instead. Like a colonial story/survival game. It's a bit much to just come out of another galaxy blind and start kicking ass and enslaving people.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Not just us being the great white hero that saves all mankind yet again.

2/4 of my Shepards weren't white, so...

 

 

Absolutely, natives with cities and new technologies that put the Citadel races in their place as one of many, not vastly superior to them.

This would actually make the most sense, considering that the Andromeda galaxy hasn't had its societies reset by the Reapers every 50 thousand years. So they've had millions of years of development, potentially. I mean, they could have gone thru several wars and natural extinction cycles, but still not like what the Milky Way has experienced. 

[SolNebula]

2/4 of my Shepards weren't white, so...

 

 

I think he referred to a moral white rather than ethnic white.

 

 

Generally speaking DA:I unfortunately demonstrated BW can't seem to get rid of the old good/bad divide in an objective sense. In every BW game it is clearly stated that we are the good guys that must save the world from certain doom and this is reinforced by the aesthetic of our enemies who are ugly, unreasonable and entirely alien to our understanding.

 

I hope BW one day recognize this is a childish attempt in portraying conflict. BW should go that extra mile to make the entire notion of good or bad purely subjective to the different actors point of view. Both us and our adversaries should act for what is to be perceived our vital interests. We aren't trying to save the world/galaxy and our adversaries DON'T want to destroy everything. We have different points of view and interests therefore we end up in conflict. We will define them evil as much as they will do with us. The game should treat our adversaries fairly and make their motives logic and reasonable as much as ours albeit opposed and mutually exclusive.

 

To sum up we end in a conflict because we have our interests that are opposed to those of our adversaries. No one is good or bad in an objective sense and both our (us and the enemies) motives are based on reasonable ideas. Our definition of evil in relation to our adversaries is propaganda based on our point of view as much as our enemies definition.

 

A conflict based on these premises will show that BW managed to evolve from the childish concept of absolute good vs absolute evil. Our world isn't made of absolutes but conflicting interests. BW is still treating its audience as children

 

Although the plot was barebone in that game I reckon the old Colony War: Vengeance did a good job with this where we as the old Imperial Navy fought a war against the League of the Free Worlds as the enemies. We were the militaristic side and still they managed to make our side if not likeable at least legitimate and reasonable in its goals.

[MichaelN7]

That would be interesting to see, but difficult to implement.

[straykat]

A conflict based on these premises will show that BW managed to evolve from the childish concept of absolute good vs absolute evil. Our world isn't made of absolutes but conflicting interests. BW is still treating its audience as children

 

I agree, but I don't know if they actually set out to do that. I think they just rely on a simplistic formula. Good, evil, something something Ancient Past/Artifacts, etc.. If they just got away from the formula, the maturity would step in. It happened with DA2. The enemies were not monsters, for the most part. Not even the Qunari really, despite their radical look. The Arishok thought he was a do-gooder, bringing equality and justice to Kirkwall. Meredith and Orsino did too, but they became monstrous only later.

 

They tried something different though and got crucified for it.

[Mcfly616]

The " bad guy"? I'd rather not. Though, I'd really appreciate it if I didn't have to play the "hero"either. The anti-hero is much more interesting. Honestly, I don't want to be tasked with saving anybody or anything this time around. Let alone an entire galaxy. 

[Khrystyn]

So, what does playing the 'bad evil' PC get you?  Let's see: You actually helped the geth, Collectors, the batarians and the Reapers destroy human colonies and the earth, you wiped out entire civilizations on a whim, you actually liked slaving for TIM, you are indoctrinated, and turned against your own family, but you don't want the natives to view you as malevolent invaders?  If you want to play Darth Vader, you already have a dark hole to slink back to. Actually, SW-TOR was BW's homage to suckering in fools who don't realize it when they've been skewered, roasted alive, and filleted over the spit. I shall eat your heart of darkness out, throw up, and gently wipe my lips in gleeful satisfaction while sipping a nice Chianti. Perhaps BW will release a demo of this assignment on June 14th at E3. I can't wait.

 

Wasn't that fun?. So why would you evil geniuses want to go to ME:A?  What is your purpose? What gray areas will you salivate over? Destroying one galaxy isn't enough for you? Fortunately, for those of you "bent on unleashing h*ll" in another galaxy, BW already has a customized character for you to role-play: You'll sabotage the ARK and die on board in the interstellar void - maybe even find an abandoned ferrel baby reaper you can adopt as one of your own, The end result of your evilness is a game where you will only survive for about 10 seconds. I will find you and off you in a spectacular fashion, and you'll never see it coming because I won't even try to arrest you. Revenge is a dish best served cold, and you are already in my Paragon's cross-hairs. Evil minds remind me of Pink Floyds's track On The Run. Listen to it; learn from it. You'll live longer (maybe). Buwhahahahahaha!!!!!  Paragons know how to deal with you, quickly and efficiently, and we're far more intelligent, clever and devious than you can even possibly imagine. The force IS with us! And I won't lose a moment of sleep over seeing your corpses rotting in fermenting soil. Next year, I'm planning to support Habitat for Humanity's outreach program in Andromeda, while driving the coolest mako over a dunescape littered with those who would not listen, and listening to 'Ryders in the Sky'.

 

To those of you who want to bathe in the mire of gray-areas, name a few. Go ahead.. you can do it...name a few for our reading pleasure. Remember - what goes around, comes around. Does the bad guy have any redeeming qualities? Evil only fights for it's own ambitions, so what are you fighting for? What do you hope to accomplish at the end of your evil play-through?

 

Perhaps I was just kidding. Fuel for thought, ahem.

[straykat]

So, what does playing the 'bad evil' PC get you?  Let's see: You actually helped the geth, Collectors, the batarians and the Reapers destroy human colonies and the earth, you wiped out entire civilizations on a whim, you actually liked slaving for TIM, you are indoctrinated, and turned against your own family, but you don't want the natives to view you as malevolent invaders?  If you want to play Darth Vader, you already have a dark hole to slink back to. Actually, SW-TOR was BW's homage to suckering in fools who don't realize it when they've been skewered, roasted alive, and filleted over the spit. I shall eat your heart of darkness out, throw up, and gently wipe my lips in gleeful satisfaction while sipping a nice Chianti. Perhaps BW will release a demo of this assignment on June 14th at E3. I can't wait.

 

Wasn't that fun?. So why would you evil geniuses want to go to ME:A?  What is your purpose? What gray areas will you salivate over? Destroying one galaxy isn't enough for you? Fortunately, for those of you "bent on unleashing h*ll" in another galaxy, BW already has a customized character for you to role-play: You'll sabotage the ARK and die on board in the interstellar void - maybe even find an abandoned ferrel baby reaper you can adopt as one of your own, The end result of your evilness is a game where you will only survive for about 10 seconds. I will find you and off you in a spectacular fashion, and you'll never see it coming because I won't even try to arrest you. Revenge is a dish best served cold, and you are already in my Paragon's cross-hairs. Evil minds remind me of Pick Floyds's track On The Run. Listen to it; learn from it. You'll live longer (maybe). Buwhahahahahaha!!!!!  Paragons know how to deal with you, quickly and efficiently, and we're far more intelligent, clever and devious than you can even possibly imagine. The force IS with us! And I won't lose a moment of sleep over seeing your corpses rotting in fermenting soil. Next year, I'm planning to support Habitat for Humanity's outreach program in Andromeda, while driving the coolest mako over a dunescape littered with those who would not listen, and listening to 'Ryders in the Sky'.

 

To those of you who want to bathe in the mire of gray-areas, name a few. Go ahead.. you can do it...name a few for our listening pleasure. Remember - what goes around, comes around. Does the bad guy have any redeeming qualities? Evil only fights for it's own ambitions, so what are you fighting for? What do you hope to accomplish at the end of your evil play-through?

 

Perhaps I was just kidding. Fuel for thought, ahem.

 

Do you write for a living? You're not bad.

[MichaelN7]

 

Dang, that is certainly something to consider, this gives me "Kreia" vibes.

Having an antagonist (note: "antagonist" DOES NOT equal "villain") like that would make for a very thought-provoking experience.

[SolNebula]

I agree, but I don't know if they actually set out to do that. I think they just rely on a simplistic formula. Good, evil, something something Ancient Past/Artifacts, etc.. If they just got away from the formula, the maturity would step in. It happened with DA2. The enemies were not monsters, for the most part. Not even the Qunari really, despite their radical look. The Arishok thought he was a do-gooder, bringing equality and justice to Kirkwall. Meredith and Orsino did too, but they became monstrous only later.

 

They tried something different though and got crucified for it.

 

The bolded part is IMHO opinion why they failed. In the end they couldn't escape from the logic of making Orsino or Meredith a monster. The Arishok was so likeable in that game I wished they explored him more but that didn't happened.

 

DA2 plot was quite nice and also the concept of time passing and seeing our character evolve over years was quite good. DA2 problems were the fights, the re-used caverns and dungeons more than the actual plot.

[straykat]

The bolded part is IMHO opinion why they failed. In the end they couldn't escape from the logic of making Orsino or Meredith a monster. The Arishok was so likeable in that game I wished they explored him more but that didn't happened.

 

DA2 plot was quite nice and also the concept of time passing and seeing our character evolve over years was quite good. DA2 problems were the fights, the re-used caverns and dungeons more than the actual plot.

 

True.. Somehow I overlook those faults though. Go figure. I suppose at the end of the day, it's the core of the games that win or lose me.. and DA2 managed to win me over.

 

To be fair, Loghain was just as cool as the Arishok. Or better. So I suppose they tried to get away from the good/evil thing there too. But it's a bit more clouded by other plots. Most people don't even bother getting to know him.

[Khrystyn]

Do you write for a living? You're not bad.

 

Comment withdrawn.

 

Straykat. My sincerely apology to you. I wrote something sarcastic when I was in a foul mood, and I took it out on you. I am very sorry.

[SNascimento]

In every BW game it is clearly stated that we are the good guys that must save the world from certain doom and this is reinforced by the aesthetic of our enemies who are ugly, unreasonable and entirely alien to our understanding.

Incorrect. See KoTOR and Jade Empire. There are some aethestic choices in both games to reinforce evil, but the main conflict is about people very much like you. Indeed, in both these games you can have very evil endings.
 

I hope BW one day recognize this is a childish attempt in portraying conflict.

Would you say Star Wars is childish? Lord of the Rings? In the sense that they are silly and immature? I know what you want to say, and I think the desire to have a game that portrays conflict in a more nuanced manner to be valid. However, that's not something Bioware needs to strive for nor - it can be argued - better than simpler good x evil stories. There are great stories either way.

[Statare]

Just think about it.  we are an invading species that is not native to this part of the galaxy.  We will need to take and colonize inhabitable planets that the species that are already living there will need/want.  We are the parasite taking over that witch is not ours.   It would just e great if the incorporate the other side of the story and make us look and feel like the jerks we are.  In Andromeda we are the British/Spanish/French and the local aliens are the Native Americans.  It would make for a fun and interesting story.  Not just us being the great white hero that saves all mankind yet again.

 

I had a similar thought. We're at best in a problematic position, taking over a new section of space from an established power (potentially) and disrupting whatever "equilibrium" has developed over potentially a long period of time. Add to that we might be taking over planets and sectors that other species consider rightfully theirs. It could be fertile ground to put us in a position of discomfort. Yes, the Milky Way species feel a right to survive, and yes the Andromeda Galaxy is probably big enough to accommodate us. But will we be content with just surviving, or will the Milky Way Survivors want a ruling position in this new galaxy? What happens if the natives are less welcoming of us, even hostile, and what if those reasons are well thought out and established as something other than "lol evil aliens are evil." It could be a great story, I don't want us to be "evil" per se but I would love for the Milky Way Survivors to be painted with shades of grey and for the narrative to establish sympathy for the opposite side of conflicts we fight.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think this will happen. I bet we'll have the "sympathetic pretty aliens" and the "aggressive macho aliens" and some "ancient technology from prothean-like aliens" and we'll fight the evil macho aliens when we discover they are using the tech for pure "lol evil" and we'll save the day and become instant heroes in Andromeda.

[Mdizzletr0n]

If you want to be the bad guy, play GTA or Postal. Let Mass Effect be Mass Effect.

[SNascimento]

It would be cool if Andromeda has a ending in these lines:

[LinksOcarina]

What about SWTOR? Isn't Empire the more popular side in that game? Imperial Agent, Sith Warrior & Inquisitor had the best class stories and it proves that Bioware is very capable of making great stories with us playing the villain.

 

The only thing I didn't like was that you couldn't switch sides... same with original ME trilogy. It would've been great if you could've sided with the Cerberus instead of the Alliance in ME3.

 

Bounty Hunter is also really sweet, although it's mostly neutral compared to those three.

 

I think it can be done...I think the problem is how many people would really like being a more antagonistic character in the end? It's a small niche which is the problem, and hard to pull off unless you have a story dedicated to being "evil" along the spectrum, like in The Old Republic. 

[DaemionMoadrin]

Bounty Hunter is also really sweet, although it's mostly neutral compared to those three.

 

I think it can be done...I think the problem is how many people would really like being a more antagonistic character in the end? It's a small niche which is the problem, and hard to pull off unless you have a story dedicated to being "evil" along the spectrum, like in The Old Republic. 

 

Imp side has one flaw though: All those stories are relatively small in scope compared to the Republic. The Sith just go on quests for selfish reasons, they don't care about anyone but themselves. The Bounty Hunter is doing the Great Hunt to get rich and famous...

...while the Jedi Knight saves first Coruscant and then the Republic. The Jedi Consular saves the Jedi Order and the Trooper hunts down rogue spec ops soldiers who defected to the Empire. Only the Smuggler is out for themselves, basically going on a convoluted treasure hunt.

 

Neither of those stories are truly evil, but they give you the opportunity to be a villain. It helps that no conversation option has lasting consequences, meaning you can snark off to powerful Sith Lords and nothing bad will happen to you. Sith Inquisitor to Lord Zash who's giddy and happy and excited about the new developments: "Master, you're a Sith Lord. Behave like one!" ... ^^

[Joseph Warrick]

Looking at history, it would be naive not to think the ark people will want independence from the Council. The past is past, a great disgrace happened, we're here now, haven't we earned the right to build a life as we see fit? The parameters of the mission weren't accurate. The Council didn't know anything about this galaxy we're now citizens of. Why follow their instructions? Can't we forge our own future here, as Andromedans?

This sentiment will prevail especially in the second generation. How will we explain we're not Andromeda natives to the children born there? That we came from the stars with a task set by a Council that's not there anymore?

Long story short, part of the settlers want to become members of the Andromeda society. You must follow the original mission to build a home for your civilization, not letting the natives absorb it (it's their preferred way to neutralize the threat to their lifestyle you represent). You refuse deals and build on your own and the others consider you an invader.

[Seraphim24]

Well, Bioware has often provided a kind of ruthless pragmatic character already in the likes of NWN, SWTOR, or just in general in many Bioware games there is that sort of option if you haven't noticed it it's usually on the "bottom."

 

There is also the excessively sort of "noble" options that prioritize ideals over everything, but where you don't get any results, sort of thing, as well, this would typically be found toward the "top" of your screen.

 

However, rather than just continuing to march down that path of pragmatic/reckless and not ideal, or ideal and nothing gets done, it would be nice to see something that does.... both? There really isn't any indication why something has to be either/or.

 

In fact, I think Bioware helped (with others) pioneer the concept of a blend between those two notions, the "idealistic options" (for lack of a better descriptor), and the kind of "pragmatic" option in Bioware games never seemed as kind of reckless and chaotic evil as in other games (like... playing Horde in WC2 lol....) which was invariably...

 

the third way™

[Master Warder Z_]

Would you say Star Wars is childish? 

 

The film presentation of the Sith, Dark Side and etc?

 

Yes.

[Kabooooom]

Just think about it. we are an invading species that is not native to this part of the galaxy. We will need to take and colonize inhabitable planets that the species that are already living there will need/want. We are the parasite taking over that witch is not ours. It would just e great if the incorporate the other side of the story and make us look and feel like the jerks we are. In Andromeda we are the British/Spanish/French and the local aliens are the Native Americans. It would make for a fun and interesting story. Not just us being the great white hero that saves all mankind yet again.

Space smallpox for everyone.