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[Bayonet Hipshot]

How difficult is it for a mage to resist the offers of a demon or possession by a demon ? 

 

What would a possession attempt by a demon feel like ? Solas talks about being tempted by demons as a kid being offered candy by strangers, Dorian is pretty chill about it when he talks about his Tevinter version of Harrowing but Circle mages like Vivienne are really terrified by the whole concept.

 

We know what possession by a benign spirit is like since Wynne explains this to Zevran in great detail but no one has ever told us about demons.

 

• Zevran: I couldn't help hearing about your... predicament. Forgive me if I am prying...
• Wynne: Yes, you are.
• Zevran: ... but what does it feel like being possessed by a spirit?
• Wynne: Why does this interest you so?
• Zevran: I simply wish to get to know those that I travel with. Is that wrong of me?
• Wynne: No, of course it isn't. Well... let me see. It is hard to describe. It is comforting... I... I feel safe, loved.
• Zevran: Comforted, loved, yes...
• Wynne: It is like being held close, cradled... the bond is so complete that I am unable to extricate myself, nor do I wish to. Wait... why do you have that look on your face?
• Zevran: Mmm, I... I am simply imagining it. Continue, please.
• Wynne: And there is a constant warmth, that spreads outwards from the very center of my being, infusing my body with--
• Zevran: Ooh...
• Wynne: Andraste's grace, what are you thinking about now? No, I don't want to know. I feel dirty. Do not speak to me.

 

Yes I know Solas tells us that demons and spirits are two sides of the same coin but there must surely be a difference. Has there been any codex entries or dialogue that talk about this ?

 

I am simply curious because the mage protagonists we play are never confronted about the possibility of being possessed, despite the number of times they encounter demons or make deal with them. FFS, we can even have sex with a desire demon in DAO and not get possessed.

[Kakistos_]

Solas is a Dreamer and Dreamers, thanks to their abilities, are especially sought after by Demons. As for other Mages, Demons do tempt them, how often is a mystery thus far but most Demons appear not to be strong or smart enough to tempt them as Abominations are rare and a vast majority of Mages live their lives without being possessed.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Solas is a Dreamer and Dreamers, thanks to their abilities, are especially sought after by Demons. As for other Mages, Demons do tempt them, how often is a mystery thus far but most Demons appear not to be strong or smart enough to tempt them as Abominations are rare and a vast majority of Mages live their lives without being possessed.

 

Yes I know that but what its like to be tempted by one ? Also, how difficult would it be to resist the temptation ?

[Kurogane335]

To be tempted probably takes a lot of forms like it did in DA:O with a pride demon trying to tempt the mage player by disguising himself into the echoes of a poor weak mage. A demon of Anger probably doesn't tempt as much as he try to take by force, so I guess his temptation would be a battle of fortitude. A demon of Despair/Sloth probably try to erode the trust in oneself, until the mage is broken and accept any bargain to cease to feel miserable. Demons of Envy and Pride probably try to conflate the ego of the mage by making them feel loved/important, and strike when the mage's own defences are down because he doesn't see the demon as dangerous anymore.

 

Now, I guess that if a mage saw a demon of Pride in the Fade only to say him : you're no demon, you're a Spirit of Knowledge, perhaps he could force the demon to be a spirit, but the mage would need to believe such a fact really hard (even if apparently, a Spirit sumoned into the material world and who has turned into a demon can't be brought back to the "side" of spirits).

[Catilina]

In the DA:O you have a chance to deal with demons, in the DA:I you also van accept Imshael's offer. I'm not sure with DA2, but there are demonic books' offer will be accepted.

I guess therefore is not fully exploited the potential of demonic possession, because an abomination can not be controlled anymore.

It might be interesting, but in principle in all three game you control  a strong character, and such a deal is not be beneficial. And in all three games meet the characters with some deterrent example.

[Sah291]

Yes I know that but what its like to be tempted by one ? Also, how difficult would it be to resist the temptation ?

There are several demons you encounter throughout the series that try to tempt you/offer you something. Mouse (Pride demon) in the mage DAO origin, as well as the Desire demon in the fade. There's the Hunger demon in the deep roads in DA2, as well the Sloth demon, and the two demons in the fade who try to tempt your companions. Imshael and the Envy demon in DAI.

We learn in DA2 that non mages can also become possessed, it just is rarer. But, they are mostly all similiar in that none of them really try to take someone by force, but by playing into the person's own desires and vices... In the end, they have to accept the demon willingly.

So like Mythal/Flemeth says, a soul does not force itself onto the unwilling, and it seems like that applies to all spirits and demons... In other words, they can't really tempt you with something you don't already want/desire. In the fade, Nightmare tries to weaken you and your companions by taunting everyone with their deepest fears and doubts. Even Cole, as a demon, only killed people that were suffering and in pain, for one reason or another.

Spirits work the same way. We see in Awakening (and DA2), how Justice convinced Anders by appealing to his sense of justice.... So spirits tempt by appealing to virtues instead of a person's vices. But according to the lore, it is much rarer to become possessed by a spirit since they tend to have no need or desire to do so... And also because, according to Anders, they have mostly given up on people. Implying people are not very virtuous and don't seek help from spirits anymore.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

So like Mythal/Flemeth says, a soul does not force itself onto the unwilling, and it seems like that applies to all spirits and demons...

 

So as long as you do not consent to possession, you will not be possessed ? A demon cannot overpower a mage by brute force and possess them ?

[vertigomez]

Mouse said it best: "You just need to want to let me in."

[Kurogane335]

So as long as you do not consent to possession, you will not be possessed ? A demon cannot overpower a mage by brute force and possess them ?

Probably not in the Fade. A ritualistic possession in the real world is probably a possibility, but in the Fade, as long as the demon is denied entry, he can't posses someone. It doesn't mean that he can't engage in a trial to break the mage's will, but even if the sould of the mortal is but a remnant, he still have to hear "I let you in" to possess someone.

[Sah291]

So as long as you do not consent to possession, you will not be possessed ? A demon cannot overpower a mage by brute force and possess them ?

Yep sounds that way. But even Morrigan, who has been running from her mother, is surprised to learn Mythal simply couldn't take her body by force... So it sounds like most people probably don't realize this and are afraid of spirits/demons because they believe they can. The Chantry makes it sound that way, at least.

In the end, I'm not sure how much difference it makes... Most people have at least one vice or weakness, and it is probably hard for many to refuse. So the fear is understandable. But it seems like most circle mages don't even think to ask a spirit and turn to demons more often... In the DAO mage origin, Valor doesn't understand why the circle uses demons to test their apprentices, when he is there willing to help, or the mages could simply test each other against themselves.

[vertigomez]

Which is funny, because the idea of being so shattered and desperate that your will is broken, that you'd willingly accept demonic possession, is waaaaaay scarier than an oogie-boogie just hijacking your meatsack.

[Sah291]

Which is funny, because the idea of being so shattered and desperate that your will is broken, that you'd willingly accept demonic possession, is waaaaaay scarier than an oogie-boogie just hijacking your meatsack.

Yeah. But it also explains why the Tranquility ritual is used for weak mages...they don't really desire anything anymore, so there is nothing for the demons to exploit. If they could just possess by force, there would be no point in that and they would have to simply kill them.

[straykat]

I like how the mechanic of Willpower ties into all of it. And how blood mages are more tempted... perhaps because they lacked strong Will in the first place. Therefore the demons pester them much more. A strong Willed mage commands their power, stands above the Fade.. and maybe the Demons sense this.

 

The same goes for Spirits. Strong will thwarts them as well, just like you see in the Harrowing right away with the Valor spirit. I think anyone who gives into them was weak at one point. Wynne included.

[vertigomez]

I like how the mechanic of Willpower ties into all of it. And how blood mages are more tempted... perhaps because they lacked strong Will in the first place. Therefore the demons pester them much more. A strong Willed mage commands their power, stands above the Fade.. and maybe the Demons sense this.
 
The same goes for Spirits. Strong will thwarts them as well, just like you see in the Harrowing right away with the Valor spirit. I think anyone who gives into them was weak at one point. Wynne included.

Yes! I love this. Blood mages literally lack willpower, and pump all their xp into constitution so they don't bleed out on the battlefield.

[straykat]

Yes! I love this. Blood mages literally lack willpower, and pump all their xp into constitution so they don't bleed out on the battlefield.

 

On a sidenote, I think Morrigan represents the best kind of mage. Even if the player happens to make her a blood mage.. lets forget about that for a second and just focus on how Gaider wrote her. She's fiercely independent and dismissive of anyone's opinions or influence.. and dismissive of spirits and demons too. These would probably be positive traits for a mage. I think her mother raised her well, as far as survival traits go.

 

On the other hand, she's probably susceptible to Pride.

[fhs33721]

So as long as you do not consent to possession, you will not be possessed ? A demon cannot overpower a mage by brute force and possess them ?

Seems like it. However it's kind of a moot point, since a demon powerful enough to overpower you might just decide to torture you until you give consent, as it happened with some mages in the Circle of Ferelden during DAO.

[Sah291]

I like how the mechanic of Willpower ties into all of it. And how blood mages are more tempted... perhaps because they lacked strong Will in the first place. Therefore the demons pester them much more. A strong Willed mage commands their power, stands above the Fade.. and maybe the Demons sense this.
 
The same goes for Spirits. Strong will thwarts them as well, just like you see in the Harrowing right away with the Valor spirit. I think anyone who gives into them was weak at one point. Wynne included.

That makes sense. Blood magic is supposed to be a dark art that comes from harnessesing the power of the Abyss... Blood mages surpress their will to learn it. I mean. They literally worship dragon gods that represent different aspects of chaos. Or at least they do in Tevinter.

But blood mages can use mind control and are especially good at binding spirits...so it is probably more that they seek out demons over spirits since they are easier to enslave and get favors from. Demons want to leave the fade and spirits don't really.

When Cole is worried about becoming enslaved, making him human increases his will (Solas says spirits can push through the Veil once they have enough willpower) and maybe becoming spirit again decreases it (he forgets human Cole and wants to return to the fade), so he is less a target and less useful to blood mages.

[Deadly dwarf]

 

FFS, we can even have sex with a desire demon in DAO and not get possessed.

 

Not that I ever thought of doing it, but where and when was that possible?

 

Regarding possession, I remember Wynne's story of being possessed by a spirit she was familiar with after fighting a demon to the death.  She did not specifically agree to be possessed, but it was not something she resisted either.  And she certainly had some control as the storyline with Evangeline shows.  (I wish that whole thing had made it into one of the games.)  Connor was a child trying to save his father and agreed to the Demon's terms for that reason.  Why did he not become an abomination and why was it possible to save him?

 

I do like the idea of demons praying upon the secret desires of their victims.  That makes things a bit more understandable.  The way mages seemed to become instantaneously possessed in DA2 when in stressful situations seemed to add credence to the hardline Templar approach to mages.

 

As to Cole, demon or spirit?  Or are demons simply malevolent spirits?

[straykat]

Not that I ever thought of doing it, but where and when was that possible?

 

Regarding possession, I remember Wynne's story of being possessed by a spirit she was familiar with after fighting a demon to the death.  She did not specifically agree to be possessed, but it was not something she resisted either.  And she certainly had some control as the storyline with Evangeline shows.  (I wish that whole thing had made it into one of the games.)  Connor was a child trying to save his father and agreed to the Demon's terms for that reason.  Why did he not become an abomination and why was it possible to save him?

 

I do like the idea of demons praying upon the secret desires of their victims.  That makes things a bit more understandable.  The way mages seemed to become instantaneously possessed in DA2 when in stressful situations seemed to add credence to the hardline Templar approach to mages.

 

As to Cole, demon or spirit?  Or are demons simply malevolent spirits?

 

I think she was already tied to that spirit before that battle. Maybe even long before. She talks about being a moody youth and then suddenly one day in the Chantry peace enveloped her or something and she chilled out. I bet the Faith spirit messed with her even then..

 

In any case, she's in danger just for being so fascinated with the other realm. I think a strong mage is firmly seated in this plane and only commands the Fade. They don't revel in it or admire it, like Wynne and Anders do with Spirits. Or blood mages and their demons.

[Sah291]

Seems like it. However it's kind of a moot point, since a demon powerful enough to overpower you might just decide to torture you until you give consent, as it happened with some mages in the Circle of Ferelden during DAO.

Mages aim to make sure they are more powerful than whatever entity it is they are summoning. Hence protection circles, barriers, binding, etc.

Connor was a child trying to save his father and agreed to the Demon's terms for that reason. Why did he not become an abomination and why was it possible to save him?

The demon was still only controlling him from the fade, so he wasn't yet possessed in the true sense. And it wasn't meant to seem like an easy task to save him. It took either blood magic/human sacrifice, or a massive amount of lyrium and several circle elders to do it.

As for Cole, I like the idea that the differences between demons and spirits aren't so black and white. A lot of it seems to depend on power and what people/spirits choose to do with it. It is also possible for humans to enslave and torture spirits, as we saw in DAI.

[straykat]

At this point, I don't see much difference either. When I played DAO at first, I thought they were benign.. but I think all spirits and demons are problematic now. And the whole problem now lies with mages just not being settled in this "world"/earth. I think strong mages are the ones who find strength in their identity in this world. Not the other.

[Sah291]

At this point, I don't see much difference either. When I played DAO at first, I thought they were benign.. but I think all spirits and demons are problematic now. And the whole problem now lies with mages just not being settled in this "world"/earth. I think strong mages are the ones who find strength in their identity in this world. Not the other.

I think that is the Chantry/Templar point of view, yeah. Elthina has a line like that in DA2. So basically, the whole mage vs. Templar conflict is really about determinism/fatalism vs. free will/self determination, I think. It is a major theme of dragon age. Mages believe in using magic to shape reality according to their will, and the templars believe that is in the maker's hands alone....so spirit posessesion is an abomination against nature. The Qunari seem to think this way especially.

[vertigomez]

And then you have Avvar augurs, throwing a wrench in everyone's tidy definitions of what is and isn't an abomination...

[Kurogane335]

I think that is the Chantry/Templar point of view, yeah. Elthina has a line like that in DA2. So basically, the whole mage vs. Templar conflict is really about determinism/fatalism vs. free will/self determination, I think. It is a major theme of dragon age. Mages believe in using magic to shape reality according to their will, and the templars believe that is in the maker's hands alone....so spirit posessesion is an abomination against nature. The Qunari seem to think this way especially.

The Qunari seems more to care about the fact that another entity could posses the mages, thus destroying their selves than anything unnatural. All in all, the result is the same (since we know that Saarebas can be tempted, hence the sewn lips and cut off tongues), with possibly the Qunari mindset putting out most of the rebellious fire in their mages.

[Sah291]

Yep. I believe that was Solas' motivation for creating the veil. The elven gods were using magic to enslave and destroy the world.... He sealed the fade away, leading to the fall of the elven empire, and decline of magical knowledge for generations. Tevinter rose to power, enslaved the elves...then Andraste came along, and mages became oppressed under Chantry controlled lands. Now there is just corrupt Tevinter elite, Chantry controlled circles, and various scattered tribes and apostates that remember much about old magic and spirits.