@Sah291: Everyone pre-veil was not a mage though... the ancient elves show that much.
Are there ANY mages amongst the Sentinels?
Abelas, I think. He levitates some stones to get to the Well before Morrigan can fly there. (I've never fought him, so I can't tell you if he uses magic to fight.)
Not to mention that the Sentinel who leads you to the Well if you ally with the Sentinels. I don't think we see her fight, but she moves walls aside and wears the same gear spellbinders do.
@Medhia
@Sah291: People in the real world would almost all fall to their knees in worship if gods in the real world doled out powers - and those that didn't would be crushed.
Look at how people on these forums embrace all sorts of magical attrocity for the sake of throwing a freaking fireball.
So too it would have been for the elves "if" magic were wholly dependent on spirit binding.
Anyway - though I think it has "some" merit... I'll end the thought exercise simply because it's impossible to know if anything I'm saying is even remotely close.
In the Dragon age is considered to be a form of disease that have to be dealt through straitjackets
"because magic exist to serve man and not to rule over him" i guess animals,elves and dwarves does not count..
In case you've missed this point, nobody's saying that magic is a disease. Just that one aspect of the system of rules for it is easy to compare to a disease if one needs something to compare it to at all.
It appears to me that how magical someone is and whether they are capable of magic or not, is dependent on how "spiritual" they are. If you are very "spiritual", you can be very powerful magically and the opposite holds true. When I say "spiritual" I mean someone who is a magnet for creatures of the Fade. I would not be surprised that what triggers magical abilities is a combination of puberty and contact with a spirit via dreams or actual contact.
Someone with mental disease can, through no moral failing of their own, be dangerous to other people. A mage who unwillingly goes abomination is in much the same situation, except far more dangerous.
A better comparison would be quarantining someone with a potentially communicable disease that's currently in remission. Objectively harmful, morally innocent, but a danger even so.
The disease isn't magic, but abominations, and the quarantine is pre-emptive if it comes out of remission. Magic's the symptom of the disease.
Quarantine theory works along the the principle that you can model and abomination outbreak along the lines of an accelerated viral outbreak.
Mages aren't mentally unstable by default,abominations are mentally unstable and everyone can become an abomination including non mages.
Some abominations like revenants are as dangerous(if not more)than a mage,so now we should lock every person in a tower for life and burn every corpses because they are all a threat.
Non-mages don't become abominations under natural conditions, assuming we use the functional definition of 'great magical powers and greater insanity.' The only mundane-abominations we saw were Templars who were hosts to demons in DA2, and they were really just demon-carriers. No magic upgrade.
Revenants and the undead are possession of corpses, which does happen- but is an argument for cremation of the dead, rather than mass imprisonment, because Revenants generally don't come from the living.
There's also the matter of relative risk, in that Mages, not mundanes, are what draw the overhwelming vast majority of demons.
And then there's the political elements of mageocracy as well, but that's a separate argument.
Sorry it took me this long, but I missed this post.
This criteria is overly selective and it applies some restrictions of definitions that neglect the demon and put emphasis only on the mage.Abominations are mentally unstable people and such persons are also non-mages who are possessed by very powerful demons.You created a restriction on the definition of the word abomination that neglect the demon and put emphasis on the mage.
No I didn't. The definition I gave is the accepted one in-setting. And it draws a valid distinction between demon hosts who are more powerful than the demon, and demon hosts limited to the demon's own power.
I'm aware that during wars the veil become thin and that the thousands of dead persons don't always receive a burial,they remain on the battlefield and are hunted by demons who turn them into Revenants creatures that have nothing to envy to mage-abominations
A revenant is created when a powerful demon takes a corpse as its host. Lesser beings create mere skeletons. A revenant is powerful because it has a demon of pride or desire inside it, which is pretty bad. However, an abomination of pride or desire has the same power source as the revenant, and the mages' power on top of it. And that's why the Pride Abomination formed from Senior Enchanter Uldred and the Desire Abomination formed from Connor are the final bosses of dungeons with revenants in them.
In short mages aren't in circles because they are mentally unstable,they are there because they(especially when they are children)can do unconsciously harm to others like Wynne.
You're confusing my point. My point isn't that they are mentally unstable, so much as that mages increased tendency to meet demons can be compared to having a latent mental instability, and that when an abomination is created, it can be compared to a mentally unstable person finally cracking.
(And note that the above clarification shouldn't be taken to mean that there aren't some mages in Dragon Age who could do with some counseling. Just because magic and mental instability aren't the same doesn't mean that a bunch of characters don't demonstrate both. And lest people try to blame that on the Templars, two of the examples that come to mind are Quentin and Zathrian.)
Watching all this debate and arguing reminded me of the Supergirl show on CBS.
Specifically something Hank Henshaw (Martian Manhunter) told Kara Danvers (Supergirl) in season 1, episode 6.
Hank :- You know, I once told you, there are people out there who fear your cousin. It's not because he has god-like powers. It's because of what he might do to them if he ever lost his temper.
That's exactly how most mundanes view most mages. They are not afraid that mages have powers (jealous maybe ?). What they are afraid is what the mages will do when they lose control.
Watching all this debate and arguing reminded me of the Supergirl show on CBS.
Specifically something Hank Henshaw (Martian Manhunter) told Kara Danvers (Supergirl) in season 1, episode 6.
Hank :- You know, I once told you, there are people out there who fear your cousin. It's not because he has god-like powers. It's because of what he might do to them if he ever lost his temper.
That's exactly how most mundanes view most mages. They are not afraid that mages have powers (jealous maybe ?). What they are afraid is what the mages will do when they lose control.
At least some are more worried that the mage might choose to abuse his powers. Danarius, Caladrius, and Alexius were all mostly sane after all. But yes, I think the mage losing control of his powers is a more serious danger. (And while possession is the most obvious, most dramatic way that can happen mages are often discovered because they lost control of powers they didn't know they had. And we watch an apprentice mage panic during a training exercise and accidentally light himself on fire; picture that happening in any kind of building other than a stone tower.)
Non-mages don't become abominations under natural conditions, assuming we use the functional definition of 'great magical powers and greater insanity.'
The only mundane-abominations we saw were Templars who were hosts to demons in DA2, and they were really just demon-carriers. No magic upgrade.
There's also the matter of relative risk, in that Mages, not mundanes, are what draw the overhwelming vast majority of demons.
And then there's the political elements of mageocracy as well, but that's a separate argument.
No I didn't. The definition I gave is the accepted one in-setting. And it draws a valid distinction between demon hosts who are more powerful than the demon, and demon hosts limited to the demon's own power.
A revenant is created when a powerful demon takes a corpse as its host. Lesser beings create mere skeletons. A revenant is powerful because it has a demon of pride or desire inside it, which is pretty bad. However, an abomination of pride or desire has the same power source as the revenant, and the mages' power on top of it. And that's why the Pride Abomination formed from Senior Enchanter Uldred and the Desire Abomination formed from Connor are the final bosses of dungeons with revenants in them.
You're confusing my point. My point isn't that they are mentally unstable, so much as that mages increased tendency to meet demons can be compared to having a latent mental instability, and that when an abomination is created, it can be compared to a mentally unstable person finally cracking.
A mental disorder, also called a mental illness, is a diagnosis of a behavioral or mental pattern that causes either suffering or a poor ability to function in ordinary life. I didn't confused your point,it is such point which is an abuse on words and meanings with fabricated comparisons.
That's exactly how most mundanes view most mages. They are not afraid that mages have powers (jealous maybe ?). What they are afraid is what the mages will do when they lose control.
Mundanes view magic in a bad light because of their preconceptions mostly developed through their religion .Most mundanes don't ever get to see an abomination or a mage and they don't even care.
Exactly. Other, non Chantry dominated societies have completely different views about Magic. Even in Tevinter mundanes hope that their children will be Mages. The Chantric view is only one of many in the world and too many here neglect that.
Mundanes view magic in a bad light because of their preconceptions mostly developed through their religion .Most mundanes don't ever get to see an abomination or a mage and they don't even care.
Yes, thanks to the circles that isolate mages from normal population effectively preventing mages from unleashing their horrors upon population.Also chantry doesn't promote hate toward magic it is nothing more than pro-mage propaganda ,only thing chantry does is noting facts that mages unleashed blights upon world and that mages are dangerous.
Exactly. Other, non Chantry dominated societies have completely different views about Magic. Even in Tevinter mundanes hope that their children will be Mages. The Chantric view is only one of many in the world and too many here neglect that.
Yeah, no wonder considering you won't be allowed progress in tevinter society if you aren't a mage.Only societies that have good opinion about mages are either self-destructive traditionalist knobheads or abusive magocracies where being a mage is ticked to not being abused or at least to better alternative.
Exactly. Other, non Chantry dominated societies have completely different views about Magic. Even in Tevinter mundanes hope that their children will be Mages.
Because mages are the ruling class, and a mage child can lift the family's status. A lot of Orzammar's casteless probably hope they have a daughter that elevates them. That doesn't speak to whether or not the system that elevates noble hunters is a good thing.
The Chantric view is only one of many in the world and too many here neglect that.
I'm aware that there are other systems. This is the one I can think of the best arguments for.
Mundanes view magic in a bad light because of their preconceptions mostly developed through their religion .
Most mundanes don't ever get to see an abomination or a mage and they don't even care.
Are you sure they don't fear it because mages are dangerous? When a mage does awaken, it apparently tends to be uncontrolled and dangerous. When a mage goes abomination, it can be far worse. Nobody in Redcliffe during the Fifth Blight needs the Chantry to tell them magic is dangerous. Anyone whose parents were alive then will probably know it without the Chantry needing to tell them as well.
That's exactly how most mundanes view most mages. They are not afraid that mages have powers (jealous maybe ?). What they are afraid is what the mages will do when they lose control.
That's true, and a valid point.
I don't just don't see it as a black and white thing, where the circle is the only alternative to losing control. I just think mages would have an easier time behaving civilly if they are members of society, where non mages are their friends, family, neighbors, business partners, etc.. Rather than always adversaries pit against each other who have no reason care, and hate and fear them anyway. You can incentivize fear and hatred, and I think the circle does that on both sides.
Yes, clearly Tevinter is embodiment of niceness, love and friendship, i think someone here has mistaken setting with My little pony.
The definition is mostly inaccurate and as such it cannot be defined as functional.Greater magical powers does not equate to greater insanity which is the state of being seriously mentally ill but to an increased likelihood of being identified by the most complex entities of the fade.
Greater magical power does equate to a greater risk of insanity, because any magical power makes one more likely to being identified, targeted, and succumbing to those complex intities that cause insanity, and greater magical power is one of the points that draw in more demonic interest.
It holds not only vis-a-vis mages vs. mundanes (where mundanes only get targetted if forced by third-party maleficars), but also between mages (though there's also other factors at play as well- such as political power, opportunity, other third-party spirit interferance).
You put emphasis on the magical talents of the hosts while dismissing the overall complexity of the issue.Being a demon carriers is especially dangerous particularly for those who are in a position of leadership since demons of desire and envy are particularly tempted to emulate or possess such persons and they can do far greater damage than the mage-abominations or was Lucius Corin a dream of mine?
Which obviously is an oversimplification of the issue that work through static in setting dictionary definitions rather than an overall dynamic perspective.Hosts are targeted by demons based on a variety of multitude aspects such as magic, popularity, behaviours and as such mundane carriers aren't less dangerous than mages-abominations.I'm waiting for the day in which an envy demon will try to emulate Celine then we shall see if it is less dangerous just because it has lesser magic than a mage vector.
Er, yes. Mundanes turned into demon-carriers are less dangerous than mage-abominations on the terms being used, because of both the nature of the creation (abominations require no third power and occur naturally regularly) and raw magical potential (mundanes have no magic to add to a demon's power).
Even Envy was dangerous because it was being directed and controlled to political usefulness by Corypheus. It didn't just pop out and possess Lucius.
“An entire unit of men, all slain by one creature. I didn't believe it at first, your Perfection, but it appears that this is so. We have a survivor, and while at first I thought his rantings pure exaggeration... it appears to be no simple skeleton. The descriptions of the creature's abilities were eerily similar to those our brothers at Marnas Pell encountered almost a century ago: men pulled through the air to skewer themselves on the creature's blade, and attacks so quick that it was able to assault multiple opponents at once. No, your Perfection, what we have here is indeed a revenant and nothing less.” ―From a letter to Divine Amara III, 5:71Clearly you are overestimating martial and physical combat prowess.Revenants are faster and physically adapt to melee combat,their magic is voted to focus on martial arts,they are far more powerful than the lesser abominations and maybe some of them are worse than pride abominations(gameplay wise i remember revenants that were far worse than Uldred 10 times more faster than him and capable to perform more damage than him ).
You're really going to confuse gameploy and lore segregation for this? Really?
A mental disorder, also called a mental illness, is a diagnosis of a behavioral or mental pattern that causes either suffering or a poor ability to function in ordinary life. I didn't confused your point,it is such point which is an abuse on words and meanings with fabricated comparisons.
Given that you insist on sticking to a literal definition for an analogy, I could agree you're not confused but only if you accept you're willfullly ignorring the parallels being used for the analogy.
Mundanes view magic in a bad light because of their preconceptions mostly developed through their religion .Most mundanes don't ever get to see an abomination or a mage and they don't even care.
Because clearly religion, and not history or occurances to others or ongoing atrocities elsewhere, are the reasons people would view something in a bad light.
You put emphasis on the magical talents of the hosts while dismissing the overall complexity of the issue.Being a demon carriers is especially dangerous particularly for those who are in a position of leadership since demons of desire and envy are particularly tempted to emulate or possess such persons and they can do far greater damage than the mage-abominations or was Lucius Corin a dream of mine?Which obviously is an oversimplification of the issue that work through static in setting dictionary definitions rather than an overall dynamic perspective.Hosts are targeted by demons based on a variety of multitude aspects such as magic, popularity, behaviours and as such mundane carriers aren't less dangerous than mages-abominations.I'm waiting for the day in which an envy demon will try to emulate Celine then we shall see if it is less dangerous just because it has lesser magic than a mage vector.
"Abomination" is not a measure of how much damage they do. It's a technical term that does not describe Lucius Corin's impersonator, and would not describe a demon that impersonated Celene... unless the demon was in a mage, and transformed that mage to look like Celene. And yes, an envy demon that got away with that could do more damage than most abominations could ever dream of, but that one form of danger is worse than abominations is not the best argument for making it easier for them to form in civilian areas by freeing the mages. Especially since a sufficiently clever mage could be the one who summons a demon to impersonate Celene. (And really, how do you think the Envy demon Corypheus was using got to Therinfal? What are the odds that Corypheus went looking for an Envy demon that was already through, when as a Tevinter Magister he'd know how to summon one?)
“An entire unit of men, all slain by one creature. I didn't believe it at first, your Perfection, but it appears that this is so. We have a survivor, and while at first I thought his rantings pure exaggeration... it appears to be no simple skeleton. The descriptions of the creature's abilities were eerily similar to those our brothers at Marnas Pell encountered almost a century ago: men pulled through the air to skewer themselves on the creature's blade, and attacks so quick that it was able to assault multiple opponents at once. No, your Perfection, what we have here is indeed a revenant and nothing less.” ―From a letter to Divine Amara III, 5:71Clearly you are overestimating martial and physical combat prowess.Revenants are faster and physically adapt to melee combat,their magic is voted to focus on martial arts,they are far more powerful than the lesser abominations and maybe some of them are worse than pride abominations(gameplay wise i remember revenants that were far worse than Uldred 10 times more faster than him and capable to perform more damage than him ).
Yes, a revenant probably is stronger than a lot of abominations... because of the demon inside it. Most abominations will have weaker demons inside them, like rage or hunger. But most skeletons do too. Don't compare them to a lesser abomination, compare them to an abomination of the same type of demon. (Except I'm not sure you've got the scaling right on that comparison either. See below.)
As for the telekinesis that no Pride Demon has ever shown... the thing is that revenants get that from the Pride or Desire Demon inside them. If those demons were not entirely capable of telekinesis, revenants could not do it. Not to mention that DA:I makes clear that mages can do it, which means that abominations can too. That they don't is almost certainly game mechanics rather than the abomination not being able to do it.
A mental disorder, also called a mental illness, is a diagnosis of a behavioral or mental pattern that causes either suffering or a poor ability to function in ordinary life. I didn't confused your point,it is such point which is an abuse on words and meanings with fabricated comparisons.
Dean got this one better than I ever could.
Yes, clearly Tevinter is embodiment of niceness, love and friendship, i think someone here has mistaken setting with My little pony.
Right, because a society with institutionalized slavery is totally the same thing as a free one.
No, it is mere consequence of mages freedom.To not search far off we can take dalish we have plenty examples of them going wrong despite friendly neighborhood atmosphere that would be impossible in larger society.
No, it is mere consequence of mages freedom.To not search far off we can take dalish we have plenty examples of them going wrong despite friendly neighborhood atmosphere that would be impossible in larger society.
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