413 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

The problem with these comparisons like Tevinter or Dalish, is they are useful to a point, but they don't exist in a vacuum. You change one thing, like Chantry policy on circles or magic in Southern Thedas, and there are cause and effect for the Dalish as well.

Change policy on what, mages freedom? Pretty much explained it won't make things any better (in fact would made thins much worse).Letting mages into society not only won't change mages into innocent puppies that can do no wrong, but also would increase numbers of disasters caused by mages and them harming population due to no fear of being punished, confidence they will get away with doing something they shouldn't like they would be in circles and not being resctried and watch what allowed to put a mages gone wrong without them leaving circle. There is always will be cause and effect but it is pore excue to let mage blow up world just because his girlfriend was sick so he decided to "hey maybe i will make deal with demon" and countless other excuses reasons mages to causing a disaster.

[Medhia_Nox]

Because clearly religion, and not history or occurances to others or ongoing atrocities elsewhere, are the reasons people would view something in a bad light.

 

Mages don't do anything wrong... how dare you.  It's all religious propaganda... and that's NOT a biased statement.

 

People ignorantly believe superstitious people feared things only because their religions made them fear them. It's wrong of course. They created mythology about things they already feared. 

 

It's not about just fearing mages... it's about fear magic... and magic is NOT rare on Thedas at all.  It's bloated with magic everywhere you turn.  Mages just happen to be conduits of magic... and also have the misfortune of being common people replete with all the failures of common people.  

 

And again with this... "There are other Non-Chantry places... "  - yes, and all of them have their own cruel ways of taking care of the problems mages "can" be... and they do it BEFORE the mages become a problem.  Avvar kill possessed mages before they become abominations... Tevinter enslaves weak mages and I wouldn't be at all shocked if both Tranquility and execution are often practiced... Dalish trade mage children to keep the populations down... 

 

Of course - there is the anomaly - Rivain... but those fools think abominations are natural disasters... talk about Stockholm Syndrome. 

[sniper_arrow]

Mages don't do anything wrong... how dare you.  It's all religious propaganda... and that's NOT a biased statement.

 

People ignorantly believe superstitious people feared things only because their religions made them fear them. It's wrong of course. They created mythology about things they already feared. 

 

It's not about just fearing mages... it's about fear magic... and magic is NOT rare on Thedas at all.  It's bloated with magic everywhere you turn.  Mages just happen to be conduits of magic... and also have the misfortune of being common people replete with all the failures of common people.  

 

And again with this... "There are other Non-Chantry places... "  - yes, and all of them have their own cruel ways of taking care of the problems mages "can" be... and they do it BEFORE the mages become a problem.  Avvar kill possessed mages before they become abominations... Tevinter enslaves weak mages and I wouldn't be at all shocked if both Tranquility and execution are often practiced... Dalish trade mage children to keep the populations down... 

 

Of course - there is the anomaly - Rivain... but those fools think abominations are natural disasters... talk about Stockholm Syndrome. 

 

MOST mages don't do anything wrong. It's the sane ones who are capable to do harm (ex. Erimond) are the ones people are and should be worried about.

[Sah291]

@TheKomandorShepard,
Of course mages aren't all innocent puppies, and a free world would not be a uptopia with flowers and lollipops all day. But there is a point in which utilitarianism, and trying to prevent all possible bad outcomes, becomes immoral and oppressive. Since the world is not a utopia and most likely never will be, you have to accept at some point what you are willing or not willing to trade for security. So far no one has shown me how free mages would be any worse than what already exists in Southern Thedas. People have shown it would not be perfect and that there might be crazy mages and abominations threatening the world... But they have that already.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sah291:  Connor was a free mage no?  But - you might say:  "In an oppressive society." 

 

Zathrian was a free mage no?  He not only tortured centuries of humans... but his own people. 

 

Then there's Merrill's clan who can wipe themselves out with magic.

And the clan from MoTB that DOES wipe themselves out with magic.

 

Tevinter has a LOT of free mages... not the best place to be.

 

We have hints that the Mortalitasi (far more free than other Southern mages) are mind controlling the Nevarran king. 

 

In Rivain... abominations are considered natural disasters... how common must they be for the people to be so cavalier about it?  We have natural disasters all the time... but we consider them just that:  "normal unfortunate occurances".  Abominations are ANYTHING but normal.

 

We're probably both "moderate" on this issue... though I lean toward "security" and you lean toward "freedom" - but I think there's a LOT of evidence of bad free mages. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

@TheKomandorShepard,
Of course mages aren't all innocent puppies, and a free world would not be a uptopia with flowers and lollipops all day. But there is a point in which utilitarianism, and trying to prevent all possible bad outcomes, becomes immoral and oppressive. Since the world is not a utopia and most likely never will be, you have to accept at some point what you are willing or not willing to trade for security. So far no one has shown me how free mages would be any worse than what already exists in Southern Thedas. People have shown it would not be perfect and that there might be crazy mages and abominations threatening the world... But they have that already.

None sane society will sacrifice its safety and stability for a comfort of the few.I pretty much have shown you examples of that repeatedly as well explained difference between mages and non-mages.How they would have crazy mages and abomnations thretening the world if not mages?

[sniper_arrow]

So far no one has shown me how free mages would be any worse than what already exists in Southern Thedas. People have shown it would not be perfect and that there might be crazy mages and abominations threatening the world... But they have that already.

 

There's this little place called Tevinter...

[Sah291]

@Medhia_Nox,
Yeah, I'm moderate on the issue, but erring on the side of freedom....and accepting the possible good and bad consequences as worth it. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of mages, I find them elistist and aggravating a lot of the time, even though it is a fun class to play (or used to be).

As for Connor, Zathrian, etc... These people are products of the society they live in, to some extent (and vise versa). How might things have turned out for Connor had there been more sane mages around to train him early on, rather than an angry blood mage like Jowan? What if his mother wasn't afraid of having her child taken away and sought out help earlier? What if the nearest mages who could help contain the situation weren't all the way off in a Tower and were right there in the Villiage? They were lucky the Warden showed up, who could bring help.

As for Tevinter, that's another society with it's own institutional problems. But Andraste stood up to Tevinter and slavery, so the Chantry should uphold those principles, IMO. If they don't who will?

[Secret Rare]

 

Given that you insist on sticking to a literal definition for an analogy, I could agree you're not confused but only if you accept you're willfullly ignorring the parallels being used for the analogy.

A parallel is a comparison of things that are similar or analogous to others,these aren't parallels they're convoluted and fabricated thoughts that lack in compactness while forcibly interchanged between subjects: from the brain(target of mental illness) to magic.

 

 

 

Er, yes. Mundanes turned into demon-carriers are less dangerous than mage-abominations on the terms being used, because of both the nature of the creation (abominations require no third power and occur naturally regularly) and raw magical potential (mundanes have no magic to add to a demon's power).

 

 

Abominations are made through a subtle manipulation that can last even for years it isn't a natural process.

Demon carriers are less dangerous than abominations on the term being used because they don't possess the same magical raw power?

It's an oversimplification that put the emphasis solely on the mage and that disregard the hierarchy that exists within the spirits.

A Revenant is more powerful than an abomination which was created from a rage or sloth demon because their spiritual hierarchy is superior.

 

Because clearly religion, and not history or occurances to others or ongoing atrocities elsewhere, are the reasons people would view something in a bad light.

Which clearly work on the assumptions that most of the theodosian folks is well documented about history and magic and that their fear of magic comes from a well informed and deep study of the subject.

I don't think it's the case here since most of them are  uneducated  peasants.

[TheKomandorShepard]

@Medhia_Nox,

As for Connor, Zathrian, etc... These people are products of the society they live in, to some extent (and vise versa). How might things have turned out for Connor had there been more sane mages around to train him early on, rather than an angry blood mage like Jowan? What if his mother wasn't afraid of having her child taken away and sought out help earlier? What if the nearest mages who could help contain the situation weren't all the way off in a Tower and were right there in the Villiage? They were lucky the Warden showed up, who could bring help.

 

And? Once again that is mere excuse for mages to cause disasters and there will be always plenty such excuses, what isn't by any mean reason to allow mages to blow up world just because they want freedom.They could turn very badly, pretty much creating more abomnations like in circles just with them being unrestrained and able to unleash their horros on outside world and after all Connor on his own decided to make deal with demon because he wanted save his father, and all of this would be prevented if he was locked up in circle.

[Secret Rare]

Mages don't do anything wrong... how dare you.  It's all religious propaganda... and that's NOT a biased statement.

 

 

That's mostly a form of biased irony developed through your own interpretation of the discussion

[Sah291]

@TheKomandorShepard,
In order to accept free mages, you have to trust that not all mages (the majority of them) are not all unskilled or insane, and would have reason to help in situations like Conor, rather than want to watch the Villiage burn. Mages would have to trust not all Villagers want to burn them at the stake and come after them with pitchforks. Yeah.

Look, I'm a female. Most men are physically bigger and stronger than me. I take care not to walk down dark allies at night or put myself in unnecessary danger... But I can't live life locked in my house afraid someone might rape me, etc.

[TheKomandorShepard]

@TheKomandorShepard,
In order to accept free mages, you have to trust that not all mages (the majority of them) are not all unskilled or insane, and would have reason to help in situations like Conor, rather than want to watch the Villiage burn. Mages would have to trust not all Villagers want to burn them at the stake and come after them with pitchforks. Yeah.

Look, I'm a female. Most men are physically bigger and stronger than me. I take care not to walk down dark allies at night or put myself in unnecessary danger... But I can't live life locked in my house afraid someone might rape me, etc.

Just because you trust someone doesn't mean they won't do anything there is no "trustworthy" mages, every single mage is dangerous by nature of being mage.You seem to live in conviction that unless mage laughs maniacally and eats puppies or is stupid that means mage is safe and won't do anything bad, what is far from true. Once again , sending mages after abomnation is plain stupid pretty much good chance it would end with more abomnations like we saw in circles, so pretty much you are sending mushrooms to fight Mario.

 

Except it is poor comparison, akin to comparing a knife to nuclear weapon both respesent wholly different level of threat.In that case you speak about threat on individual level while in mages case we speak about local, national or even world threat.

[Sah291]

Just because you trust someone doesn't mean they won't do anything there is no "trustworthy" mages, every single mage is dangerous by nature of being mage.

I see that you feel this way, so we are just going to have to agree to disagree, because I don't see any point in arguing over it any further. You don't and I do. But you can't force people to trust each other against their will. If it were me in Thedas, I would be more interested in who benefits from turning people against each other this way. Qunari, Chantry extremists, blood mages, Tevinter oligarchcs, etc, etc... Did Cory not benefit from the conclave explosion? At least in the short term, until the Inquisition countered him.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I see that you feel this way, so we are just going to have to agree to disagree, because I don't see any point in arguing over it any further. You don't and I do. But you can't force people to trust each other against their will. If it were me in Thedas, I would be more interested in who benefits from turning people against each other this way. Qunari, Chantry extremists, blood mages, Tevinter oligarchcs, etc, etc... Did Cory not benefit from the conclave explosion? At least in the short term, until the Inquisition countered him.

There is no feeling that is a fact, Uldred wasn't weak nor insane just yet he decided to toy with demons , Dorian father or Alexius big opponents of blood magic decided just out of convenience use it or join group of dangerous blood mages. There is no guarantee that would allow you to point finger on mage and say "oh, this one won't cause a disaster or do anything bad". People shouldn't trust mages, people should make sure that they will be under control and won't blow up this world and to that you don't need trust them in fact quite opposite.

[Sah291]

There's this little place called Tevinter...

It's possible freed mages in Southern Thedas could turn into something like Tevinter. It's not an unfounded fear. If the mages are "freed" only in the sense that they are given more political power, and access to the Chantry.... But the circle system continues as is, and they continue to isolate themselves from the rest of society, etc. Rulership could change, but the system might not. This is what Fenris says happened in Tevinter.

Non mages fear mages for their power... But mages also fear non mages for their numbers. They fear the angry mob, and I'm sure that's probably a fear in Tevinter too if they abolish slavery, even if some people there want to. That doesn't mean nothing should be done.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MOST mages don't do anything wrong. It's the sane ones who are capable to do harm (ex. Erimond) are the ones people are and should be worried about.

You don't think they should be afraid of the clearly insane Quentin and Tarohne? Or the questionably-sane Zathrian, Decimus, and Grace? Or even the not-entirely-rational Alexius? Or the abominations who, despite probably being sane to start with,* have the ability to wipe out huge numbers of innocent people without necessarily wanting to?

 

* For those who still haven't gotten the picture, assuming anyone still hasn't, I'm not saying mages have a latent mental illness. Merely that the effect of becoming an abomination, in which you go on a rampage and kill a whole lot of innocent people whether or not the real you really wants to, is comparable to some of the worst of them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

The problem with these comparisons like Tevinter or Dalish, is they are useful to a point, but they don't exist in a vacuum. You change one thing, like Chantry policy on circles or magic in Southern Thedas, and there are cause and effect for the Dalish as well.

The very worst of the problems the Dalish system of using magic has unleashed wouldn't be mitigated by dissolving or freeing the Circles. They might, however, have been mitigated or prevented by enforcing them. And I fail to see how the White Circles have any real effect on the Black ones.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

@TheKomandorShepard,
Of course mages aren't all innocent puppies

What that's ridicoulus tell me the name of one single evil mage,there aren't.

they are just misunderstood.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

What that's ridicoulus tell me the name of one single evil mage,there aren't.

they are just misunderstood.

That's a rather quixotic thing to say.

[Sah291]

The very worst of the problems the Dalish system of using magic has unleashed wouldn't be mitigated by dissolving or freeing the Circles. They might, however, have been mitigated or prevented by enforcing them. And I fail to see how the White Circles have any real effect on the Black ones.

Sorry, I meant that they wouldn't necessarily end up like Tevinter. Free mages in Southern Thedas might be more likely to oppose the Tevinter system if it wasn't the only free mage land to escape to. Just like the Qunari are picking up a lot of elves who are frustrated with their lot.

As for the Dalish, it might ease their isolationist tendancy and hostility towards humans, if they are not worried about getting picked up by templars, and if the Chantry/Circles no longer control the lyrium supply, limiting the number of their own mages they can provide for. Things like that.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Sorry, I meant that they wouldn't necessarily end up like Tevinter. Free mages in Southern Thedas might be more likely to oppose the Tevinter system if it wasn't the only free mage land to escape to. Just like the Qunari are picking up a lot of elves who are frustrated with their lot.

You mean other than Rivain, which is dysfunctional but at least doesn't openly practice slavery? Or the Dalish, for that matter?

 

And even if those weren't options, some of the rebel mages who don't oppose Tevinter seem to want the Tevinter system anyway. Tarohne and Linnea come to mind, for example. Compare them to Lysas, who despite believing the questionable assertion that there were Templars ready willing and able to destroy the rebels at Redcliffe didn't support the alliance with Tevinter.

 

 

As for the Dalish, it might ease their isolationist tendancy and hostility towards humans, if they are not worried about getting picked up by templars, and if the Chantry/Circles no longer control the lyrium supply, limiting the number of their own mages they can provide for. Things like that.

I guess you have a point here, but two things.

 

One: mages don't actually need lyrium. The clans that kick mages out, I think do so either to avoid Templar heat (which strengthens your point) or because they can go abomination (which would strengthen mine.) Or maybe some of both? Don't know what we'd do then.

Two: There's already plenty of reason for the Dalish to want to be isolationist. While Zathrian being a muggle would have limited his ability to destroy the humans who messed with him, it wouldn't have stopped them doing what they did. Them not having to worry about Templars isn't likely to change much. It might, however, embolden them when dealing with non-mage humans.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

That's a rather quixotic thing to say.

Well i'm a Donquixote and idealistic in the fiber,i'm unable to see the evil of the world,to me villains don't exist they are all just misunderstood people.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well i'm a Donquixote and idealistic in the fiber,i'm unable to see the evil of the world,to me villains don't exist they are all just misunderstood people.

... good for you?

[Sah291]

@Riverdaleswhiteflash,
Right I forgot about Rivain. But the more alternatives, the better, it's not as if Tevinter is the only choice. As for the Tarohne types, fine let them go to Tevinter if that's what they want. Probably they wouldn't last long there, but why would you want them in your circles?

I thought lyrium just enhanced a mages power, according to the lore..at least back in Origins. So they are more limited without it. They can't enter the fade without it, unless they are Dreamers, which are rare.

Well i'm a Donquixote and idealistic in the fiber,i'm unable to see the evil of the world,to me villains don't exist they are all just misunderstood people.

I think I'm in love.