@Riverdaleswhiteflash,
As for the Tarohne types, fine let them go to Tevinter if that's what they want. Probably they wouldn't last long there, but why would you want them in your circles?
To make it easier to keep an eye on them. You'll recall that Tarohne didn't so much want to go to Tevinter as start her own, and that the apostates in the Hinterlands had the same idea even without a Tevinter alliance.
To make it easier to keep an eye on them. You'll recall that Tarohne didn't so much want to go to Tevinter as start her own, and that the apostates in the Hinterlands had the same idea even without a Tevinter alliance.
So if they are turning into abominations or hurting people, let the templars hunt them down. No one is saying just let them do whatever crimes they like with no consequences. Same as any other extremist group killing people and theatening to invade or conquer. But there's no reason to lump all mages in with them, and have templars babysitting people like Bethany all day long, when they could be doing real work, going after Venatori or whoever.
What do the evil mages do before the Templars find them? The thing about re-imagining the Templars as a purely reactive force is that it means everything that goes wrong happens in an area that is mostly peopled by individuals who don't have any power to defend themselves against magic, as opposed to in a stone tower peopled mostly by mages and Templars.
This word......evil what does even mean?What do the evil mages do before the Templars find them? .
What do the evil mages do before the Templars find them? The thing about re-imagining the Templars as a purely reactive force is that it means everything that goes wrong happens in an area that is mostly peopled by individuals who don't have any power to defend themselves against magic, as opposed to in a stone tower peopled mostly by mages and Templars.
Well there would still be a system of justice ideally, I don't see why those things would necessarily go away just because there are free mages. Just because they are lifting a religious freedom law (and that's basically what it amounts to, IMO), laws against murder, assault, theft, fraud, and the like would still apply to mages.
I don't know about them being purely reactive. Are the local city guards purely reactive if they have a suspected criminal? It's probably more give and take, since they don't have unlimited resources to watch everyone all the time waiting for someone to commit a crime... Nor would people like that much, mage or not. I don't know. How would non mages feel about the local city guard tracking them 24/7, waiting for them to steal bread, or whatever.
The point is, normal people can't defend themselves against mage criminals, much less against abominations. And considering that mages don't actually have to want to go abomination to do so (otherwise they'd be a lot rarer) and have little control once they've done so it's arguably reasonable to want mages contained. I don't think any of this answered that.
This word......evil what does even mean?
it's so absolute..
"Evil" is like "obscenity." It's hard to define, but you know it when you see it.
Sah291 made a great point earlier in that Circles and Tevinter are not the only options. Caged vs dominating Mages are not the only dynamic in Thedas. Rivain, The Avvar, Chasind and others have policed their Mages without Circles or Templars for millennia and utilize their Magic for the greater good of the society and not only for war or novelty.
The point is, normal people can't defend themselves against mage criminals, much less against abominations. And considering that mages don't actually have to want to go abomination to do so (otherwise they'd be a lot rarer) and have little control once they've done so it's arguably reasonable to want mages contained. I don't think any of this answered that.
Normal people who learn to fight aren't exactly helpless kittens. There were a number of successful rebellions against Tevinter Magisters before Templars came along. In the time of the First Inquisition, before the Chantry and when Templars were newly born, mundanes successfully rooted out Malificarum. But they weren't alone. Remember Ameridan? They were aided and even led by free Mages that shared the same values as they did and together hunted down other Mages who chose to be a danger to everyone.
The now former/current system, even as abusive and flawed as it became over time, would not be possible without free Mages who were given authority and autonomy to do what was needed. The notion that locking up all Mages is a good idea was not a cry that carried the day in ages past to Chantric societies. It was driven into the populace via religious dogma over the years and is why truths about figures like Inquisitor Ameridan were written out of history.
Sah291 made a great point earlier in that Circles and Tevinter are not the only options. Caged vs dominating Mages are not the only dynamic in Thedas. Rivain, The Avvar, Chasind and others have policed their Mages without Circles or Templars for millennia and utilize their Magic for the greater good of the society and not only for war or novelty.
Rivain is, for all practical purposes, ruled by its mages. They have a king and queen, and the mages swear allegiance to that king and queen, but that only means as much as the British Parliament swearing allegiance to the queen before they get down to the business of how they're going to lead "her" country. We see the results of the Rivaini system in that they are willing to just put up with mages going abomination.
Even if it's not their main use of magic, the Avvar do use it for war. Not often, to the best of our knowledge, but everyone takes as read that what they create can threaten an entire nation. Yes, the groups that manipulated Hakkon were led by non-mages, but they would not have been a fraction as dangerous without their mages. Do I need to explain why I think the people who can create such a threat should be contained? Besides which their system for controlling mages uses spirits, which we've seen repeatedly is dangerous. Apparently the closest thing to that system breaking down to happen so far was the misuse of Hakkon Wintersbreath, but still. We don't know how spirits become corrupted, and if we don't know that we can't guarantee that they won't. For all we know Korth The Mountain-Father or The Lady of the Skies might be the final boss of DA5.
Unless WoT has gone into a lot of detail that the wiki doesn't reflect for some reason, we really do not know enough about the Chasind to use them as evidence for either side in this argument.
Normal people who learn to fight aren't exactly helpless kittens. There were a number of successful rebellions against Tevinter Magisters before Templars came along. In the time of the First Inquisition, before the Chantry and when Templars were newly born, mundanes successfully rooted out Malificarum. But they weren't alone. Remember Ameridan? They were aided and even led by free Mages that shared the same values as they did and together hunted down other Mages who chose to be a danger to everyone.
The vast majority of normal people might as well be helpless kittens against a sufficiently powerful magical threat. The only thing you can do to save Redcliffe is fight for it yourself. For a reason.
The rebellions against Tevinter Magisters tended to involve numbers. Or mages. Or apparently convenient crop failures, to judge from some of the things you hear in the Temple of Sacred Ashes. Or probably all of these.
But the fact that mages helped doesn't help your argument. I'm not arguing that all mages should be killed or that nobody should use magic. Merely that mages should be monitored, and kept in isolated locations whenever feasible.
Sah291 made a great point earlier in that Circles and Tevinter are not the only options. Caged vs dominating Mages are not the only dynamic in Thedas. Rivain, The Avvar, Chasind and others have policed their Mages without Circles or Templars for millennia and utilize their Magic for the greater good of the society and not only for war or novelty.
Those places are so culturally different, there's no real comparison.
A parallel is a comparison of things that are similar or analogous to others,these aren't parallels they're convoluted and fabricated thoughts that lack in compactness while forcibly interchanged between subjects: from the brain(target of mental illness) to magic.
This would be a demonstration of you ignorring the elements actually being raised, yes.
Abominations are made through a subtle manipulation that can last even for years it isn't a natural process.
It's as natural as any other two-party arrangement, and requires no external catalyst. Abominations can occur wittingly, unwittingly, after years of stress, or in a moment's decision.
Abominationhood requires no third parties, no catalyst, no requisite materials, no rituals, and not even prior intent. It's more natural than arms and armor.
Demon carriers are less dangerous than abominations on the term being used because they don't possess the same magical raw power?
And because they happen far less frequently, because they barely happen at all.
Danger is a measure of both commonality and severity. Something that is both less common and less severe is less dangerous.
It's an oversimplification that put the emphasis solely on the mage and that disregard the hierarchy that exists within the spirits.
The heirarchy within the spirits is irrelevant to the management of the mundane order of affairs because the spirit heirarchy does not exist within the realm of the mundane.
Emphasis is put on the mages of Thedas on this side of the veil because no one is able to conquer and control the hierarchies of spirits on the far side of the vale. Focusing on what is actually in your ability to affect is neither an oversimplification or disregard.
A Revenant is more powerful than an abomination which was created from a rage or sloth demon because their spiritual hierarchy is superior.
A Revenant is a Pride demon possession- the equivalent abomination to be measured against a Pride abomination.
Which clearly work on the assumptions that most of the theodosian folks is well documented about history and magic and that their fear of magic comes from a well informed and deep study of the subject.I don't think it's the case here since most of them are uneducated peasants.
If they were uneducated, they wouldn't know to fear magic they hadn't experienced themselves.
If we want to address Andrastian doctrine, though, the standard of judgement would be on the people who create it- who aren't the uneducated peasants, but the educated clerics, nobles, and scholars, and even mages who come together to understand the history and practical risks and applications of magic in Thedas. We would have to judge the on the historical validity of the religious claims- which include genocidal plague-carriers, ongoing human sacrifice, and the occasional outbreak of homicidal insanity with casualties far beyond any equivalent mundane executor.
Sadly, all three of these things are available in the Dragon Age itself, and that's living history.
Those places are so culturally different, there's no real comparison.
And put mages as automatic elites simply because of birth. The Rivain countryside is a mageocracy where people suffer through 'natural disasters' that are, in most of the rest of Thedas, largely preventable.
The other side of the coin- the Avaar- begs a separate question. How, exactly, are the Avaar practices supposed to be applicable to a wider practice, even if we believe them 'safe'? These are not free and enlightened societies in which mages are treated or viewed as equals with mundanes, or subject to any particular form of public approval or acceptance to weild great power and influence, and certainly that's without touching on the cultural baggage of the rest of the culture that supports and tolerates these special stations.
I mean, really- I've yet to see any mage supporter appeal to the Avaar and then go on to say that free mages should be free to create their own Hakkon. But spirit-god worship is a cornerstone of their magical practices- it's not necessarily cafaterria religion here.
And put mages as automatic elites simply because of birth. The Rivain countryside is a mageocracy where people suffer through 'natural disasters' that are, in most of the rest of Thedas, largely preventable.
The other side of the coin- the Avaar- begs a separate question. How, exactly, are the Avaar practices supposed to be applicable to a wider practice, even if we believe them 'safe'? These are not free and enlightened societies in which mages are treated or viewed as equals with mundanes, or subject to any particular form of public approval or acceptance to weild great power and influence, and certainly that's without touching on the cultural baggage of the rest of the culture that supports and tolerates these special stations.
I mean, really- I've yet to see any mage supporter appeal to the Avaar and then go on to say that free mages should be free to create their own Hakkon. But spirit-god worship is a cornerstone of their magical practices- it's not necessarily cafaterria religion here.
I always hesitate to talk about the Abomination Incidence Rate™ as a measure, since the game never really makes it clear just how frequent it is as an event. Tevinter has managed not to crumble under a horde of monstrosities, ultimately. In any case, I think the real issue with mages isn't the danger with them becoming abominations, but with their natural position as a ruling class.
The issue is not simply that mages are elites because of their birth - it's that the mages that have the capacity to actually be elites seem to also otherwise have the traits that would make them elite IRL, i.e., intelligence. The most powerful mages seem to also be among the brightest, so what you really have is a brilliant reality bending ubermensch class. It's only natural that they'll acrue power faster than you can say "Enslaved by the Imperium."
The interesting question with mages to me has always been whether the future inevitability of their rulership justifies their present oppression.
The interesting question with mages to me has always been whether the future inevitability of their rulership justifies their present oppression.
How do you think a Dragon Age game would go about examining that? To me it seems that while that's a concern, the in universe justifications always fall back on the "ticking time bomb" aspect of mages.
How do you think a Dragon Age game would go about examining that? To me it seems that while that's a concern, the in universe justifications always fall back on the "ticking time bomb" aspect of mages.
By actually portraying what it means to have a race of superpowered ubermensch who can actually control minds. If you want to see the real danger of a blood mage, watch Jessica Jones. That's what petty and evil blood mages would start doing with their power.
By actually portraying what it means to have a race of superpowered ubermensch who can actually control minds. If you want to see the real danger of a blood mage, watch Jessica Jones. That's what petty and evil blood mages would start doing with their power.
hmm that'd be an interesting take on blood mages, but I can't see BioWare going that route, especially the more, potentially offensive, parts of the show.
By actually portraying what it means to have a race of superpowered ubermensch who can actually control minds. If you want to see the real danger of a blood mage, watch Jessica Jones. That's what petty and evil blood mages would start doing with their power.
I don't know. I feel like we've had some examples of blood magic in the hands of evil people. Take the Baroness, who drained the life force of young girls to maintain her own youth, and then hurled an entire town into the Fade when they tried to kill her. Then you have Quentin who used it kidnap women and stitch them together to recreate his dead wife.
In that sense, I do feel like Bioware done well in demonstrating the evils that can come of blood magic, and the dangers of its use, enough that wariness, fear, and oppression of mages can be somewhat justified.
Side note: If I'm not making any sense at all, I'm running on like two hours of sleep right now, so I might not be making much sense.
hmm that'd be an interesting take on blood mages, but I can't see BioWare going that route, especially the more, potentially offensive, parts of the show.
It's not, though. Because what makes a story offensive isn't that it has, say, rape. It's how it portrays it. JJ never hid from the visceral horror of it, the psychological terror, the scars it leaves, and so on. But that's a totally different topic.
It's not, though. Because what makes a story offensive isn't that it has, say, rape. It's how it portrays it. JJ never hid from the visceral horror of it, the psychological terror, the scars it leaves, and so on. But that's a totally different topic.
I don't disagree, I just think BioWare wouldn't want to tackle it regardless
I don't know. I feel like we've had some examples of blood magic in the hands of evil people. Take the Baroness, who drained the life force of young girls to maintain her own youth, and then hurled an entire town into the Fade when they tried to kill her. Then you have Quentin who used it kidnap women and stitch them together to recreate his dead wife.
In that sense, I do feel like Bioware done well in demonstrating the evils that can come of blood magic, and the dangers of its use, enough that wariness, fear, and oppression of mages can be somewhat justified.
It's not about evil. The Purple Man isn't terrifying because he kills people, because he tortures them. He's terrifying because he enslaves people, traps them in their bodies and does horrid things to them, just because he can. Makes them skin and kill each other, sexually abuses them, humiliates them. That's what blood magic can do. Bioware's never even come close to showing the true horror of mind control.
It's not about evil. The Purple Man isn't terrifying because he kills people, because he tortures them. He's terrifying because he enslaves people, traps them in their bodies and does horrid things to them, just because he can. Makes them skin and kill each other, sexually abuses them, humiliates them. That's what blood magic can do. Bioware's never even come close to showing the true horror of mind control.
Fair, but it ain't happening in a Bioware game, I can tell you that much.
Edit: I would like it to happen, cause dear God, that would add a lot more punch to the debate, so to speak. Granted, sewing live women together to recreate your dead wife is pretty messed up too.
Fair, but it ain't happening in a Bioware game, I can tell you that much.
Edit: I would like it to happen, cause dear God, that would add a lot more punch to the debate, so to speak. Granted, sewing live women together to recreate your dead wife is pretty messed up too.
The thing is, that's what got us blood magic. It was a chat DG + other writers were having about what it would really mean to have a "charm person" spell, and all the awful things it implied. They've just never taken it seriously.
The thing is, that's what got us blood magic. It was a chat DG + other writers were having about what it would really mean to have a "charm person" spell, and all the awful things it implied. They've just never taken it seriously.
Well, we're now headed to Tevinter, blood magic central. If there was ever a time to bust out the big guns of blood magic, it would be now.
The interesting question with mages to me has always been whether the future inevitability of their rulership justifies their present oppression.
While I believe that limiting the risks of abominations is the better argument (one preventable instance is too many, given the threat they pose) I have never denied that mages gaining control is something to be feared. Not that I like the current rulers of Thedas, but things could be worse.
In order to gain control of the Empire of Orlais, Celene executed a plot in which all of her elven servants save for one favorite were murdered in such a way as made her appear to be the target. That's bad enough, but if a maleficar with Celene's morals took the throne? I don't know that blood magic's worst horror is mind control; it's up there to be sure, but let's not skate over the fact that it's as far as we know the strongest form of magic (all else being equal) and works best for horrible people who are willing to torture others to death. Simply put, in this setting your power is directly correlated to how evil you are. A blood mage with Celene's morals in charge of a country would be a scary thought, and it seems like the ruling class of Tevinter is (with a few exceptions) a pack of such blood mages.
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