413 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

While I believe that limiting the risks of abominations is the better argument (one preventable instance is too many, given the threat they pose) I have never denied that mages gaining control is something to be feared. Not that I like the current rulers of Thedas, but things could be worse.

 

In order to gain control of the Empire of Orlais, Celene executed a plot in which all of her elven servants save for one favorite were murdered in such a way as made her appear to be the target. That's bad enough, but if a maleficar with Celene's morals took the throne? I don't know that blood magic's worst horror is mind control; it's up there to be sure, but let's not skate over the fact that it's as far as we know the strongest form of magic and works best for horrible people who are willing to torture others to death. A blood mage with Celene's morals in charge of a country would be a scary thought, and it seems like the ruling class of Tevinter is (with a few exceptions) a pack of such blood mages.

 

I'm not actually opposed to the concept of mage freedom. I think the Circles are genocide, by definition (cf. the various UN documents). I just think that people need to consider what that freedom really means, and what it costs to put principles like autonomy that define liberal democracy into practice. It doesn't mean a utopian society - it means risking the current one for one a hell of a lot more oppressive. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I just think that people need to consider what that freedom really means, and what it costs to put principles like autonomy that define liberal democracy into practice. It doesn't mean a utopian society - it means risking the current one for one a hell of a lot more oppressive. 

Especially in Thedas.

[Sah291]

Especially in Thedas.

Thedas is a long way away from any sort of modern liberal type society, those kinds of ideas are only just starting to surface, if at all. Even though the game has some modern themes.

I predict not much changes with the circle system, outside of a few new independent groups, like Fiona's, and there will be more conflict with mages. I'm just trying to show why Tevinter is not the only possible way for mages to be free, and how it might work.

But no, freedom doesn't mean utopia. Nor should it. You can't try to force a society into a utopia without controlling it into oblivion, either, or they end up like the Qunari. And it's possible to take something so far that you end up with the opposite. Too much security turning into chaos, etc.

But when thinking about mage freedom being worse? Would it really? Did the Circle system really prevent all the abominations and demons and things people are afraid of from escaping into the world? It even caused a civil war. That is something terribly broken.

[Sah291]

I'm not actually opposed to the concept of mage freedom. I think the Circles are genocide, by definition (cf. the various UN documents). I just think that people need to consider what that freedom really means, and what it costs to put principles like autonomy that define liberal democracy into practice. It doesn't mean a utopian society - it means risking the current one for one a hell of a lot more oppressive.

Yeah the game does have this theme, it's the whole character arc of Solas. Fought a rebellion, woke up thousands of years later to find out the world was worse. Cory too.

But I don't know. We're being confronted with the question of whether the world really is worse off. Worse how and for who? And if it really is worse, should we go back to fix it, destroying what exists now, or accept it and move on.

[The Baconer]

I always hesitate to talk about the Abomination Incidence Rate™ as a measure, since the game never really makes it clear just how frequent it is as an event. 

 

Regarding Rivain, specifically, people have latched on to the "natural disaster" quote, even though it did not imply any measure of frequency. Heck, the Seers there are required by law to provide the Templars assistance. All of the mass-death phenomena in Rivain, that we know of, had nothing to do with Seers or Abominations. 

 

On the flip side, the Circle in the past has extended special privileges to certain mages, allowing them to live and travel outside the institution. By base probability we know that somewhere, eventually, one of these mages will become possessed, through no moral failing of their own. Would it be an incident that should affect Circle policies regarding mages living outside of the Circle? If those in charge within both the Circle and the Chantry decide it isn't, we would only be able to call it an event outside of human control (at least if total and permanent internment is staying off the table). It's an "act of God", a natural disaster. 

 

Of course, the group who would charge the mages of the Dairsmuid Circle of screwing around with spirits... are people who screw around with spirits themselves and have been doing so for a long time. Even hard-ass Andrastianism isn't above mingling with Fade entities, it seems. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

But when thinking about mage freedom being worse? Would it really? Did the Circle system really prevent all the abominations and demons and things people are afraid of from escaping into the world? It even caused a civil war. That is something terribly broken.

Yes, blights and other disasters constantly caused by mages we saw that a lot are proof of that i have explained that 100 of times here. All of them, no most of them yes.Civil war was caused by corrupted and foolish divine , templars in fact on their own captured mages without starting civil war.

 

 

Yeah the game does have this theme, it's the whole character arc of Solas. Fought a rebellion, woke up thousands of years later to find out the world was worse. Cory too.

But I don't know. We're being confronted with the question of whether the world really is worse off. Worse how and for who? And if it really is worse, should we go back to fix it, destroying what exists now, or accept it and move on.

Except, world isn't by any mean "worse", in fact people are in most places better than Tevinter and Arlathan where people were slaves and subjugated to whims insane and self-destructive lunatics with magical powers. Corypheus was pretty much fueled by power hunger while Solas is fueled by sentimentality to his orld world proving that he is just another lunatic mage ready to blow up world because of his whims as well proving why mages shouldn't be let roam freely. 

[Sah291]

Yes, blights and other disasters constantly caused by mages we saw that a lot are proof of that i have explained that 100 of times here. All of them, no most of them yes.Civil war was caused by corrupted and foolish divine , templars in fact on their own captured mages without starting civil war.



Except, world isn't by any mean "worse", in fact people are in most places better than Tevinter and Arlathan where people were slaves and subjugated to whims insane and self-destructive lunatics with magical powers. Corypheus was pretty much fueled by power hunger while Solas is fueled by sentimentality to his orld world proving that he is just another lunatic mage ready to blow up world because of his whims as well proving why mages shouldn't be let roam freely.

Yeah he's a mage... Who deliberately created the Veil, and imprisoned the old elven mage gods, (even though he loves magic and the fade) so that people wouldn't have to be enslaved by them anymore. But doing so also removed a lot of magic from the world, and it still happened... Elves still become oppressed, whether by magic or something else (Chantry law, the Qun, poverty, etc).

If I had to guess, Bioware takes a more cynical view about never ending cycles of slavery and freedom, and that all attempts to create order or peace ultimately devolve into war and conflict anyway, and that there is something inevitable about it all. Look at Mass Effect.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yeah he's a mage... Who deliberately created the Veil, and imprisoned the old elven mage gods, (even though he loves magic and the fade) so that people wouldn't have to be enslaved by them anymore. But doing so also removed a lot of magic from the world, and it still happened... Elves still become oppressed, whether by magic or something else (Chantry law, the Qun, etc).

If I had to guess, Bioware takes a more cynical view about never ending cycles of slavery and freedom, and that all attempts to create order or peace ultimately devolve into war and conflict anyway, and that there is something inevitable about it all. Look at Mass Effect.

He is a mage who destroyed his own world because it was in hands of other self-destructive and insane mages that would destroy world on their own what only further reinforces idea that mages shouldn't be free.Now, people aren't enslaved at least outside tevinter not counting individual examples, even city elves are free and can leave society despite they tend to be abused in human societies. Solas idea that restoring old world make will amke things better is stupid because problem lied in nature of old world where world was at mercy of few unstoppable individuals that went mad from having too much power, now Solas plans to restore said people assuming that somehow miraculously he will deal with said individuals pretty much it is only matter of time becfore they would be replaced and unstoppable mages once again would make hell on earth and threaten existance of the world.

[Steelcan]

I'm not actually opposed to the concept of mage freedom. I think the Circles are genocide, by definition (cf. the various UN documents). I just think that people need to consider what that freedom really means, and what it costs to put principles like autonomy that define liberal democracy into practice. It doesn't mean a utopian society - it means risking the current one for one a hell of a lot more oppressive. 

do you think a BioWare game should start delving into "is genocide (as you defined the Circles) ok under certain circumstances?". I'd be hesitant to ascribe the label of genocide on the Circles, it certainly has elements of it but I think its a tad too much of a reach by going with the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law in this case.

[Sah291]

I wouldn't call it genocide... More like internment? Or maybe more like being forced to live on a reservation. Some circles have a degree of semi autonomy, so maybe it is more like that.

Alternatively, from the perspective of pro circle mages, it might be compared to a cult like situation, not being permitted to leave, forced to undergo terrifying initation rituals (harrowing or tranquillity), etc. This goes for the Templar order too, who also suffer similiar, forced to take lyrium, etc.

@Steelcan, Bioware did delve into that in ME.

[Steelcan]

I wouldn't call it genocide... More like internment? Or maybe more like being forced to live on a reservation. Some circles have a degree of semi autonomy, so maybe it is more like that.

Alternatively, from the perspective of pro circle mages, it might be compared to a cult like situation, not being permitted to leave, forced to undergo terrifying initation rituals (harrowing or tranquillity), etc. This goes for the Templar order too, who also suffer similiar, forced to take lyrium, etc.

@Steelcan, Bioware did delve into that in ME.

with what the genophage?  Which we never really see the consequences of, are just told, but that is true, it did deal with it even if it wasn't a great way to go about it.

[Sah291]

with what the genophage? Which we never really see the consequences of, are just told, but that is true, it did deal with it even if it wasn't a great way to go about it.

Yeah the genophage subplot. The rachni. Also there's Sephard's possible choice in the destroy ending with the geth. Even though they weren't organics, they were still sapient. But there were just a lot of themes in general about rebellion, conflict, and war, and how far a species is willing to go for survival. I suppose DA may be going there as well, with the whole Solas/Veil plot.

[German Soldier]

Magic of the blight should be able to repel spirits and probably was the reason the taint was created in the first place so that elves could have handled with the spirits in the non pre- veil world.

[Hellion Rex]

Magic of the blight should be able to repel spirits and probably was the reason the taint was created in the first place so that elves could have handled with the spirits in the non pre- veil world.

Pretty sure the Taint existed before the Veil went up, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't intended in its creation to deal with spirits in the world after the Veil's raising.

[Kakistos_]

Rivain is, for all practical purposes, ruled by its mages. They have a king and queen, and the mages swear allegiance to that king and queen, but that only means as much as the British Parliament swearing allegiance to the queen before they get down to the business of how they're going to lead "her" country. We see the results of the Rivaini system in that they are willing to just put up with mages going abomination.

 

Even if it's not their main use of magic, the Avvar do use it for war. Not often, to the best of our knowledge, but everyone takes as read that what they create can threaten an entire nation. Yes, the groups that manipulated Hakkon were led by non-mages, but they would not have been a fraction as dangerous without their mages. Do I need to explain why I think the people who can create such a threat should be contained? Besides which their system for controlling mages uses spirits, which we've seen repeatedly is dangerous. Apparently the closest thing to that system breaking down to happen so far was the misuse of Hakkon Wintersbreath, but still. We don't know how spirits become corrupted, and if we don't know that we can't guarantee that they won't. For all we know Korth The Mountain-Father or The Lady of the Skies might be the final boss of DA5.

 

Unless WoT has gone into a lot of detail that the wiki doesn't reflect for some reason, we really do not know enough about the Chasind to use them as evidence for either side in this argument.

 

 

 

The vast majority of normal people might as well be helpless kittens against a sufficiently powerful magical threat. The only thing you can do to save Redcliffe is fight for it yourself. For a reason.

 

The rebellions against Tevinter Magisters tended to involve numbers. Or mages. Or apparently convenient crop failures, to judge from some of the things you hear in the Temple of Sacred Ashes. Or probably all of these.

 

But the fact that mages helped doesn't help your argument. I'm not arguing that all mages should be killed or that nobody should use magic. Merely that mages should be monitored, and kept in isolated locations whenever feasible.

 

Rivain is not ruled by Mages. I think we have had this argument before but I will make this point again. Seers act as community leaders. They do not rule their nation anymore than the Bannorn in Ferelden do or the Council of Heralds rule Orlais. Different countries, similar functions in government. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

The Jaws of Hakkon are a single group of Avvar and are not indicative of their culture as a whole. Their numbers comprised of mostly mundanes and they led by one as well. Cherry picking and obsessing over the actions of a few bad apples in a millennia old society and saying that all members of this one group should be locked up the rest of their lives is absurd.

 

Interacting with Spirits is dangerous if you do not know what you are doing. You make the point yourself, the only example you have on that front is Hakkon itself. Lets examine that for a second. Mages, an offshoot group of Mages, allied and led by mundanes, a majority mundane group, manipulate a powerful Spirit into a host in order to attack their enemies. There is no backfire, the Spells and Rituals work as intended. No system was collapsed, the Avvar as a group are not harmed by Hakkon.

 

The Avvar have existed with Free Mages for far longer than the Chantry or Circle have been around and in contrast to the latter, has yet to implode. And the greatest argument you have for them to lock up their Mages is a splinter group's semi successful militarization attempt. The Chantry also militarizes Magic against it's enemies. Are the Avvar somehow worse because their Mages weren't caged beforehand? I would argue that other Mages could greatly benefit from the teachings of the Avvar in respect to Spirits.

 

Of course the fact that Mages helped helps my argument. It illustrates that even in a historically dark time that Mages and mundanes could work together to successfully rout an undesirable element and towards stability without the former being oppressed. It illustrates that before religion got in the way that Mages and mundanes were, like the Avvar, capable of a mutually beneficial societal existence.

[German Soldier]

Pretty sure the Taint existed before the Veil went up, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't intended in its creation to deal with spirits in the world after the Veil's raising.

Pretty sure you didn't even understood what i said since i never said that the veil predate the taint

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Rivain is not ruled by Mages. I think we have had this argument before but I will make this point again. Seers act as community leaders. They do not rule their nation anymore than the Bannorn in Ferelden do or the Council of Heralds rule Orlais. Different countries, similar functions in government. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest otherwise.

We have.

 

The thing about that argument is that there is no central authority to speak of. The local authorities are in charge of their areas, and rule pretty much unchallenged save for the same token fealty I've already mentioned. The Bannorn and the Council of Heralds report to a central government that can force them into line. The Seers report to one that can't.

 

 

The Jaws of Hakkon are a single group of Avvar and are not indicative of their culture as a whole. Their numbers comprised of mostly mundanes and they led by one as well. Cherry picking and obsessing over the actions of a few bad apples in a millennia old society and saying that all members of this one group should be locked up the rest of their lives is absurd.

Not when the two times something happened it was apparently an existential threat to a large country.

 

 

Interacting with Spirits is dangerous if you do not know what you are doing. You make the point yourself, the only example you have on that front is Hakkon itself. Lets examine that for a second. Mages, an offshoot group of Mages, allied and led by mundanes, a majority mundane group, manipulate a powerful Spirit into a host in order to attack their enemies. There is no backfire, the Spells and Rituals work as intended. No system was collapsed, the Avvar as a group are not harmed by Hakkon.

A: We don't actually know how safe the Avvar system is. All we know is that they (apparently) haven't had any major problems yet, which (if true) is impressive evidence of foolproofness but not proof of it. For all we know it could be exactly as good as you say, or a time-bomb long past due to explode. It would depend on how spirits being corrupted works. ("Denying them their purpose" isn't entirely specific, and we don't know that it's the only way anyway. We don't really know that Solas knows considering that the quest with Cole indicates not even he knows the exact rules for spirits changing.)

B: Let's not skate over the fact that the Avvar were trying to collapse a system, and from all I understand were thought to have the power to do so. If abominations are my main reason to look on the idea of mage freedom with fear, they're far from my only reason.

 

 

The Avvar have existed with Free Mages for far longer than the Chantry or Circle have been around and in contrast to the latter, has yet to implode. And the greatest argument you have for them to lock up their Mages is a splinter group's semi successful militarization attempt. The Chantry also militarizes Magic against it's enemies. Are the Avvar somehow worse because their Mages weren't caged beforehand? I would argue that other Mages could greatly benefit from the teachings of the Avvar in respect to Spirits.

If the Avvar caged their mages, it might have stopped this splinter faction from doing what they did. Just saying.

 

The thing about the way the Avvar handle spirits is that, while Solas apparently states they've never had problems, for all we know there is potential for them to do so. A spirit gets corrupted, or a demon sneaks in while they try to replace a god. Or another bunch of clowns like the Jaws of Hakkon comes along, which is a possibility I don't know that you're really giving enough weight to.

 

And even if the system is utterly foolproof once set up (absent JoH clowns) there's the difficulty of setting it up in the first place. For non-Avvar to set up such a system would require them to find spirits who are willing to help. That's a prime opportunity for demons. Whether or not the system works for the Avvar, spreading it risks making things a good deal worse.

 

 

Of course the fact that Mages helped helps my argument. It illustrates that even in a historically dark time that Mages and mundanes could work together to successfully rout an undesirable element and towards stability without the former being oppressed. It illustrates that before religion got in the way that Mages and mundanes were, like the Avvar, capable of a mutually beneficial societal existence.

To some degree, the Circle was mutually beneficial. As Sera points out, a lot of the mages the Circles grab would not have been guaranteed meals, an education, or a soft place to sleep if they hadn't awakened as mages. And if you live in an alienage, Templars tend to average out as a lateral move from the local police. Yeah, all of that needs changing, but as it is now, the Circles are far from the worst mages can end up with.

[The Hierophant]

 

Of course the fact that Mages helped helps my argument. It illustrates that even in a historically dark time that Mages and mundanes could work together to successfully rout an undesirable element and towards stability without the former being oppressed. It illustrates that before religion got in the way that Mages and mundanes were, like the Avvar, capable of a mutually beneficial societal existence.

I doubt the pre Andrastian relationship between mages, and ordinary people was that simple back then. Yeah you have Avvar society, and Rivain as one example but then there's Arlathan's who predates them, and the ancient Imperium's who lived alongside them as counter examples.

[Medhia_Nox]

Nobody ever considers that the reason groups like the Avvar have less problems is because they shackle their mages to spirits who protect them? 

So sure, if a mage is happy being bound to an alien entity from another dimension... then go to town.  They can call them gods and feel super happy about it. 

 

Only the stupidest of mages would think they're the ones in control of a relationship that involves an immortal being of thought - just ask Anders, Connor, Zathrian (though different), Marithari, Uldred and Wilhelm (and it's amazing that I could name more and it STILL wouldn't phase people hellbent on magetopia).  

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Nobody ever considers that the reason groups like the Avvar have less problems is because they shackle their mages to spirits who protect them? 

So sure, if a mage is happy being bound to an alien entity from another dimension... then go to town.  They can call them gods and feel super happy about it. 

 

Only the stupidest of mages would think they're the ones in control of a relationship that involves an immortal being of thought - just ask Anders, Connor, Zathrian (though different), Marithari, Uldred and Wilhelm (and it's amazing that I could name more and it STILL wouldn't phase people hellbent on magetopia).  

 

Yep. The Avvar practice a form of reverse binding (the mages are not actually bound but you get the idea) and there are people who think that this is a good idea.

 

Say what you will about Templars but at least they are not necessarily one dimensional creatures of the Fade who can be corrupted and perverted into a demon if you decide to impose your will on them.

[Secret Rare]

 

 

To some degree, the Circle was mutually beneficial. As Sera points out, a lot of the mages the Circles grab would not have been guaranteed meals, an education, or a soft place to sleep if they hadn't awakened as mages. 

A caged bird stands on the grave of dreams
his shadow shouts on a nightmare scream
his wings are clipped and his feet are tied so he opens his throat to sing.

 

I would gladly trade those guaranteed meals  and a chantry education for my own aspirations,or now mages are even supposed to say thanks for the meals?

[Bayonet Hipshot]

A caged bird stands on the grave of dreams
his shadow shouts on a nightmare scream
his wings are clipped and his feet are tied so he opens his throat to sing.

 

I would gladly trade those guaranteed meals  and a chantry education for my own aspirations,or now mages are even supposed to say thanks for the meals?

 

I get what you are saying but you have to put what is happening in context. Thedas is not a post-industrial continent with an overabundance of food. Furthermore, education was only available for the rich which was primarily the nobility and trading families. Apart from that, medical technology is in its medieval infancy, transportation is inefficient and the world is filled with scary creatures. Lastly, lifestyle for the average man and woman in Thedas is not exactly stellar. 

 

Yes Templars and Chantry are not the paragons of virtue but guaranteed food, guaranteed high quality education (Circle education is better than nobility education in most cases), guaranteed shelter, access to the best healers (mages and the tranquil are good at herbalism and some mages specialize in healing), having no need to worry about finances (since everything is taken care of) is an appealing prospect to many.

 

The situation gets worse if you are an Elven Mage. The Dalish shuffle mages amongst themselves like they are property and if they have too much of them they exile the extra mages out without much thought. Non-magical Elves are oppressed by many in Thedas wheras in the Southern Circles, Elven mages are held as equals to Human mages. I mean, Orsino and Fiona are both Elven mages from the Circle who got to high positions within them. Had Orsino and Fiona been non magical Elves, I think their life would have been very different.

 

The same is true of Human commoners. The human mage characters that we have played are all nobles, not commoners. So from their perspective, life in the Circle sucks because they come from lavish estates and palaces. By contrast, people like Wynne and Bethany who were born as commoners were grateful to be in the Circle.

 

So yes, like it or not, the Circle had some benefit and it needs reform, instead of being discarded.

[Steelcan]

A caged bird stands on the grave of dreams
his shadow shouts on a nightmare scream
his wings are clipped and his feet are tied so he opens his throat to sing.

 

I would gladly trade those guaranteed meals  and a chantry education for my own aspirations,or now mages are even supposed to say thanks for the meals?

enjoy it then, until you get ripped apart by an angry mob for a crop failure or something

[Secret Rare]

 

Yes Templars and Chantry are not the paragons of virtue but guaranteed food, guaranteed high quality education (Circle education is better than nobility education in most cases), guaranteed shelter, access to the best healers (mages and the tranquil are good at herbalism and some mages specialize in healing), having no need to worry about finances (since everything is taken care of) is an appealing prospect to many.

 

 

The process of receiving or giving systematic instruction through predefined patterns and models of learning is in itself a constraint for magic.

Relating to the ideas, customs, and social behavior of the society is defined as cultural education which  does not equate to magical education.

Magic is without a shape and it possess an infinite potential in terms of creativity,with the circles education every mage learn it in the exact same way thus their inner magical "breath" is destroyed.

Tell me how many shapeshifters you saw in the circles?None is the answer

Their system of magical education is mostly based upon religious prohibition against any form of magic that are not  included in their protocols,as such it cannot be defined high quality  education.

 

 

[Sah291]

Nobody ever considers that the reason groups like the Avvar have less problems is because they shackle their mages to spirits who protect them?
So sure, if a mage is happy being bound to an alien entity from another dimension... then go to town. They can call them gods and feel super happy about it.

They do.

It's like the ancient elves binding themselves to their gods, when you think about it. It was likely for protection as much as any other reason. Even the Andrastians do this in a sense, not with lesser spirits or other gods, but to the will of the Maker, whom they place their faith and trust for protection. The only society that doesn't is perhaps Qunari, which are less theistic, but they still bind themselves to the Qun. The Dwarves who don't dream, but worship Paragons (ancestors) instead...although they must have a history with the Titans.

Point being, everyone in Thedas who believes in the fade, binds themselves to some thoughtform or idea within it, consciously or not. There are the Tranquil, who have their connection to the fade severed, who are made invisible to spirits or demons. But they are very logical, rational, and near emotionless. So spirits appear to be attracted to emotion, and to other spirits, etc.

Blood mages are said to be especially at risk to attrack demons. Their power comes from the blood and (I think) the material plane, rather than the fade. And so they can learn to dominate other mortals and spirits. I.E. mind control. They are placing material over spirit, rather than spirit over material. This would explain why Solas says blood magic makes it harder to reach the fade.

Just random thoughts. I guess it matters whether DA spirits are supposed to represent ideas (reflected from the mortal world), or if they really are supposed to be alien creatures or disembodied souls from another dimension. The fact that spirits and demons are named after virtues and vices makes me think the former. That means they really aren't alien, but partly the creation of mortals, who they mimic.