@Sah291: They're alien entities incapable of independent thought SO they embody ideas.
However - there is also a big difference between worshiping spirits and worshiping the thing that made spirits (Maker) - I don't know if the Maker is real, but worshiping the Maker isn't at all the same kind of service binding yourself to a spirit would be.
To be tempted probably takes a lot of forms like it did in DA:O with a pride demon trying to tempt the mage player by disguising himself into the echoes of a poor weak mage. A demon of Anger probably doesn't tempt as much as he try to take by force, so I guess his temptation would be a battle of fortitude. A demon of Despair/Sloth probably try to erode the trust in oneself, until the mage is broken and accept any bargain to cease to feel miserable. Demons of Envy and Pride probably try to conflate the ego of the mage by making them feel loved/important, and strike when the mage's own defences are down because he doesn't see the demon as dangerous anymore.
Now, I guess that if a mage saw a demon of Pride in the Fade only to say him : you're no demon, you're a Spirit of Knowledge, perhaps he could force the demon to be a spirit, but the mage would need to believe such a fact really hard (even if apparently, a Spirit sumoned into the material world and who has turned into a demon can't be brought back to the "side" of spirits).
yeah I think it largely depends on the demon they are facing as to what tactics it uses.
It's like the ancient elves binding themselves to their gods, when you think about it. It was likely for protection as much as any other reason.
If what Solas said about the character of most of the Evanuris was true, you've just made our point about the Avvar system for us.
Jokes aside...
They do.
It's like the ancient elves binding themselves to their gods, when you think about it. It was likely for protection as much as any other reason. Even the Andrastians do this in a sense, not with lesser spirits or other gods, but to the will of the Maker, whom they place their faith and trust for protection. The only society that doesn't is perhaps Qunari, which are less theistic, but they still bind themselves to the Qun. The Dwarves who don't dream, but worship Paragons (ancestors) instead...although they must have a history with the Titans.
That's not actually the same thing. The Andrastians mostly believe the Maker is not watching out for them, and they have to shift for themselves. The Qunari emphatically believe the same thing.
@Medhia_Nox,
I'm not sure that has really been answered by the series yet, but it does change my perspective either way. If spirits are something more along the lines of say, the geth in ME.
I always thought the Maker is supposed to be the equivalent of a monotheistic type diety. So yes different. But same idea, except that the Maker is the highest, primal, and original divine source, and therefore above all lesser spirit entities and mortals. Putting ones faith in the Maker would confer protection against other lower spirit entities, and provides a basis for the Andrastians to have rejected slavery from the old gods and mortals who followed them. I could be wrong, but they have never explained what the Maker is exactly, just hinted.
The Maker doesn't actually grant any protection, from all we can tell. Even the Chantry preaches that he abandoned the world. Everybody always says "Maker protect us," or "The Maker has shielded," but the Chantry makes clear they don't believe he did and only Leiliana's really dedicated to saying them nay. In short, the Andrastians are well aware they need to protect themselves.
A caged bird stands on the grave of dreams
his shadow shouts on a nightmare scream
his wings are clipped and his feet are tied so he opens his throat to sing.
I would gladly trade those guaranteed meals and a chantry education for my own aspirations,or now mages are even supposed to say thanks for the meals?
Well, when someone gives you something it is generally considered polite to thank them.
If what Solas said about the character of most of the Evanuris was true, you've just made our point about the Avvar system for us.
The Chantry view is very Deist. The Maker showed up, set some stuff in motion, and then disappeared. Either that, or he is a god that respects free will and does not interfere most of the time.The Maker doesn't actually grant any protection, from all we can tell. Even the Chantry preaches that he abandoned the world. Everybody always says "Maker protect us," or "The Maker has shielded," but the Chantry makes clear they don't believe he did and only Leiliana's really dedicated to saying them nay. In short, the Andrastians need to protect themselves.
Yes and no. I mean that everyone in Thedas has their own gods that they follow, whether they be spirits, ancestors, ideas, or a philosophy.... People derive their morality from somewhere, and the more dedicated to an idea or worldview they are, the stronger against outside influence they will be.
I see.
An interesting viewpoint, but that does seem to draw a parallel between the Avvar and other cultures that I'm not sure is entirely accurate. Most of this setting's other cultures draw on their religions to give themselves the psychological strength to do what they need on their own. The Avvar have "gods" who just do what the Avvar need. I'll even concede to those that advocate for that system that in most cases it seems to be more effective, now that it's set up, although we don't know how difficult it was to set up in the first place (which is relevant to introducing the system to the rest of Thedas) or that the whole "they use spirits as a mainstay of their system" thing isn't Bioware trying to foreshadow the BBEG of DA5 or DA6.
Anders was immune to demon possession, because he was already possessed. You see?
Saying that Anders is immune to demonic possession because of Justice is like saying that dying of disease makes you immune to disease. Wynne gets to say she's immune to demonic possession. Anders doesn't.
The Chantry view is very Deist. The Maker showed up, set some stuff in motion, and then disappeared. Either that, or he is a god that respects free will and does not interfere most of the time.
They may believe their god is gone, but they still have a body of philosophy they live by (the Chant).
This is mostly the same point as the first bit, I think.
The process of receiving or giving systematic instruction through predefined patterns and models of learning is in itself a constraint for magic.
Relating to the ideas, customs, and social behavior of the society is defined as cultural education which does not equate to magical education.Magic is without a shape and it possess an infinite potential in terms of creativity,with the circles education every mage learn it in the exact same way thus their inner magical "breath" is destroyed.Tell me how many shapeshifters you saw in the circles?None is the answerTheir system of magical education is mostly based upon religious prohibition against any form of magic that are not included in their protocols,as such it cannot be defined high quality education.
They're teaching methods the Circle mages know to work, and magic they know isn't overly dangerous in the wrong hands. For that matter we've seen that some mages are allowed to look into things that are otherwise forbidden with Vivienne and Commander Helaine. And you don't seem to give the Chantry any credit for teaching the mages to read while they're at it.
We have.
The thing about that argument is that there is no central authority to speak of. The local authorities are in charge of their areas, and rule pretty much unchallenged save for the same token fealty I've already mentioned. The Bannorn and the Council of Heralds report to a central government that can force them into line. The Seers report to one that can't.
I am still not seeing any evidence of your assertions. Dragon Age is a game with an abundance of background lore and the sources relevant to this topic suggest the opposite of your personal conclusions. You cannot simply make things up.
A: We don't actually know how safe the Avvar system is. All we know is that they (apparently) haven't had any major problems yet, which (if true) is impressive evidence of foolproofness but not proof of it. For all we know it could be exactly as good as you say, or a time-bomb long past due to explode. It would depend on how spirits being corrupted works. ("Denying them their purpose" isn't entirely specific, and we don't know that it's the only way anyway. We don't really know that Solas knows considering that the quest with Cole indicates not even he knows the exact rules for spirits changing.)
B: Let's not skate over the fact that the Avvar were trying to collapse a system, and from all I understand were thought to have the power to do so. If abominations are my main reason to look on the idea of mage freedom with fear, they're far from my only reason.
We do know that their system has lasted far longer than the Circle system. We know that their Mages benefit their society as a whole. Clearly they are doing something right. As for Avvar and Spirits, if you bring Solas with you when you meet the Auger he says himself that it is safe. Spirits become Demons when their desires or purpose is corrupted in some way and according to Solas there is a degree of choice involved. The Spirits that align themselves with the Avvar are there because they want to be. The Avvar do not force them to do anything, it is a relationship of mutual communication.
If the Avvar caged their mages, it might have stopped this splinter faction from doing what they did. Just saying.
The thing about the way the Avvar handle spirits is that, while Solas apparently states they've never had problems, for all we know there is potential for them to do so. A spirit gets corrupted, or a demon sneaks in while they try to replace a god. Or another bunch of clowns like the Jaws of Hakkon comes along, which is a possibility I don't know that you're really giving enough weight to.
And even if the system is utterly foolproof once set up (absent JoH clowns) there's the difficulty of setting it up in the first place. For non-Avvar to set up such a system would require them to find spirits who are willing to help. That's a prime opportunity for demons. Whether or not the system works for the Avvar, spreading it risks making things a good deal worse.
If the Avvar caged their Mages it would have inevitably led to conflict and war like Circle. No system is foolproof. That is an impossible standard. Besides it was made clear that one of the many benefits the Avvar enjoy via Free Mages is that they facilitate relationships with local Spirits and in turn the Spirits keep Demons away and warn the Avvar of other dangers. If there were a threat of a Demon "slipping in" then the Avvar would be warned.
To some degree, the Circle was mutually beneficial. As Sera points out, a lot of the mages the Circles grab would not have been guaranteed meals, an education, or a soft place to sleep if they hadn't awakened as mages. And if you live in an alienage, Templars tend to average out as a lateral move from the local police. Yeah, all of that needs changing, but as it is now, the Circles are far from the worst mages can end up with.
Clearly the Mages disagreed. I fail to see how a cage, however gilded, is beneficial to anyone other than those who hold the key.
So - we have:
- A draconian system of religious control (Southern Thedas)
- A draconian system of magical eugenics (Tevinter)
- A chaotic system of spirit servitude (Rivain)
- A brutal system of spirit servitude (Avvar)
- A cruel system of child slave trade and population control (Dalish)
- A draconian system of philosophical control (Qunari)
Not a single group lives in a magetopia... even the best of them (the Avvar) kill abominations in their sleep when they decide they're too dangerous (Why? Because facing an abomination without templars is much harder - and the Avvar civilization is tribal. Losing people in those numbers would spell death).
There's plenty wrong with the Circle... but I haven't really read one opposing view that I don't believe is "mostly" projecting their real world views onto the mage problem - and because of that, I really can't consider most anything more than personal crusades against things they hate in real life.
Saying that Anders is immune to demonic possession because of Justice is like saying that dying of disease makes you immune to disease. Wynne gets to say she's immune to demonic possession. Anders doesn't.
There's plenty wrong with the Circle... but I haven't really read one opposing view that I don't believe is "mostly" projecting their real world views onto the mage problem - and because of that, I really can't consider most anything more than personal crusades against things they hate in real life.
@Sah291: The point is that they have the allegiance with these spirits/demons so long as they serve them.
So, if you're okay serving these entities... that's one thing.
But consider this... if you knew a friend, and then you knew this friend suddnely had another person inhabiting them telling them what to do... how would that make you feel?
What if you had someone come up to you and say: "I will protect you from danger so long as you obey me."?
If Wynne didn't represent the spirits personality... she would have either corrupted it if it stayed, or it would have abandoned her. And IF she had corrupted it... it would have possessed her like Justice did when it turned into Vengeance.
Is that really "safety" at all? How is this different than slavery to the the Chantry? How is it not incredibly worse?
@Sah291: The point is, that they have the allegiance with these spirits/demons so long as they serve them.
So, if you're okay serving these entities... that's one thing.
But consider this... if you knew a friend, and then you knew this friend suddnely had another person inhabiting them telling them what to do... how would that make you feel?
What if you had someone come up to you and say: "I will protect you from danger so long as you obey me."?
If Wynne didn't represent the spirits personality... she would have either corrupted it if it stayed, or it would have abandoned her. And IF she had corrupted it... it would have possessed her like Justice did when it turned into Vengeance.
Is that really "safety" at all? How is this different than slavery to the the Chantry? How is it not incredibly worse?
You don't see any difference between another person... and something inhabiting your body? I do... and it would be unacceptable.
If I disagree with a Templar it can't take over my body.
We don't know "what" Solas really wants - and that's a fact.
Remember - before Solas wanted a Darkspawn Magister to blow up a ton of people to activate his magical orb so he could rip open the Veil and cause an apocalypse...
He "just wanted to help".
Why do people so quickly believe Solas... but are so quick to condemn everything the Chantry says as propaganda... it's foolish at best.
Personally, I think the main problem in the modern Circle system is this: realization/mastery of the arcane is put before the realization of the self (or nurturement of willpower, for those who are so inclined).
They may preach how it is their responsibility to make themselves 'safe' for the betterment for the normal people of Thedas, but their rather insular and oftentimes overly restrictive policies is very much a part of why mages can become dangerous. Not all Circles are the same, but there are some that actively nurture an environment that claims that mages are monsters, unstable weapons, less than human, etc.
For many mages, the Circle is their home and their primary environment. It is where they are raised, fed, educated and socialize. Like regular homes in cities and towns all over Thedas, the home environment is important.
A home where the environment is healthy (nice family, a reasonable amount of freedoms) is bound to breed people that more or less nice as well (polite, educated, etc.). Whereas a home where the environment is abusive (a family that yells all the time, physical beatings, emotional abuse) is bound to breed people that are more or less 'bad' as well (more likely to engage in thievery, foul language, more prone to acting out).
Of course, for regular people its one thing. But for mages it is quite another.
The Circles that breed fear and oppression alongside the tumultuous emotions that go along with it effectively create a 'fade environment' that has a higher probability of attracting demons to them.
A mage who is terrified of being killed by Templars can attract demons of fear. A mage who feels horribly oppressed by a system that denies them so much can attract a demon of rage. A mage who genuinely believes themselves a monster can attract a demon of despair. Etc.
In many ways, it is the failures of the Circle that can contribute to failings of its mages.
Personally, I think the main problem in the modern Circle system is this: realization/mastery of the arcane is put before the realization of the self (or nurturement of willpower, for those who are so inclined).
They may preach how it is their responsibility to make themselves 'safe' for the betterment for the normal people of Thedas, but their rather insular and oftentimes overly restrictive policies is very much a part of why mages can become dangerous. Not all Circles are the same, but there are some that actively nurture an environment that claims that mages are monsters, unstable weapons, less than human, etc.
For many mages, the Circle is their home and their primary environment. It is where they are raised, fed, educated and socialize. Like regular homes in cities and towns all over Thedas, the home environment is important.
A home where the environment is healthy (nice family, a reasonable amount of freedoms) is bound to breed people that more or less nice as well (polite, educated, etc.). Whereas a home where the environment is abusive (a family that yells all the time, physical beatings, emotional abuse) is bound to breed people that are more or less 'bad' as well (more likely to engage in thievery, foul language, more prone to acting out).
Of course, for regular people its one thing. But for mages it is quite another.
The Circles that breed fear and oppression alongside the tumultuous emotions that go along with it effectively create a 'fade environment' that has a higher probability of attracting demons to them.
A mage who is terrified of being killed by Templars can attract demons of fear. A mage who feels horribly oppressed by a system that denies them so much can attract a demon of rage. A mage who genuinely believes themselves a monster can attract a demon of despair. Etc.
In many ways, it is the failures of the Circle that can contribute to failings of its mages.
That is ridiculous argument, there is no single incident in the series where mage is taught in the circles they are monsters or less human.Only 2 circle mages in entire series had view that they are monsters and that was their own view rather than chantry or circles.
Yes, and in to majority people in Thedas circles provide mages you with safe environment (at least safer they would be outside) and best education in entire Thedas but also with luxuries that most people in Thedas can only dream about and all of that for free, unless mage specifically was born as a noble thin chances he would have such good life as s/he would have in circle. I love how you try make circle abusive family despite templars by any mean aren't and should be mage family only jailor and overseer.
Mage has no reason to be terrified of being killed by a templar if mage didn't do anything against law set by templars, at least no more than citizen has to be afraid of authority figure like police officer.
Thedas isn't place that will cuddle you, most mages have better lives in circles than they would be without them anyway.
That is ridiculous argument, there is no single incident in the series where mage is taught in the circles they are monsters or less human.Only 2 circle mages in entire series had view that they are monsters and that was their own view rather than chantry or circles.
Yes, and in to majority people in Thedas circles provide mages you with safe environment (at least safer they would be outside) and best education in entire Thedas but also with luxuries that most people in Thedas can only dream about and all of that for free, unless mage specifically was born as a noble thin chances he would have such good life as s/he would have in circle. I love how you try make circle abusive family despite templars by any mean aren't and should be mage family only jailor and overseer.
Mage has no reason to be terrified of being killed by a templar if mage didn't do anything against law set by templars, at least no more than citizen has to be afraid of authority figure like police officer.
Thedas isn't place that will cuddle you, most mages have better lives in circles than they would be without them anyway.
You are taking my argument largely out of context if you think I am extending it to all of the circles. Taken out of context further if you think I was merely referring to the physical attributes of a home environment. You might want to reread, friend. Or, if it still not apparent, I can spare writing another post on the matter.
You are taking my argument largely out of context if you think I am extending it to all of the circles. Taken out of context further if you think I was merely referring to the physical attributes of a home environment. You might want to reread, friend. Or, if it still not apparent, I can spare writing another post on the matter.
There is no single piece of evidence of mages being taught of being monster in any of the circles, hell even examples of self-loathing mages are almost non-existent , so pretty much what you said is nothing more than pro-mage propaganda.Except circles don't prevnt mages from forming emotional bonds between each other as well provides an education so not only physical attributes.
You are taking my argument largely out of context if you think I am extending it to all of the circles. Taken out of context further if you think I was merely referring to the physical attributes of a home environment. You might want to reread, friend. Or, if it still not apparent, I can spare writing another post on the matter.
I wouldn't bother arguing with TKS. Practically everyone on this forum has given up trying to argue with him considering all his posts act as though his opinion is undisputed fact.
It's better to just ignore him since absolutely nothing you say will ever convince him.
I am still not seeing any evidence of your assertions. Dragon Age is a game with an abundance of background lore and the sources relevant to this topic suggest the opposite of your personal conclusions. You cannot simply make things up.
Well, according to the last thread I remember this argument coming up on, WoT describes the royal family of Rivain as "Chantry faithful, but progressive by necessity." You can argue that allowing some dissent is to their credit, but unless Drasanil paraphrased until the actual meaning was lost, that's not what's happening; it really sounds like the dissent would happen whether or not they were okay with it.
And apparently the royal family of Rivain are the closest thing Llomeryn has to rulers. Someone of whom that's true is either really libertarian, or just not entirely in control of their own country. Now, I can believe a slum not being entirely under the control of the rulers of the country, but Llomeryn is home to a bunch of pirates that are enough of a danger to extort protection money. If the Rivaini rulers were otherwise in control of their country, one would think they'd turn the entire population on that island.
Of course, none of that is entirely direct, and so if you gave me any "sources relevant to this topic" that "suggest the opposite of my personal conclusions" I might have to drop this.
We do know that their system has lasted far longer than the Circle system. We know that their Mages benefit their society as a whole. Clearly they are doing something right. As for Avvar and Spirits, if you bring Solas with you when you meet the Auger he says himself that it is safe. Spirits become Demons when their desires or purpose is corrupted in some way and according to Solas there is a degree of choice involved. The Spirits that align themselves with the Avvar are there because they want to be. The Avvar do not force them to do anything, it is a relationship of mutual communication.
Well, now that I've finally had the opportunity to look that up, I really have to say that that bit is less strong evidence for your arguments than I'd been letting Leaguer of One lead me to believe. Unless there's some dialogue that that player didn't get, all Solas is saying is that those spirits don't mean any harm. That's pretty obviously true, but not the evidence of the Avvar system as a whole being safe that I'll admit I'd been pretty sure I'd find in that video.
It does contain evidence that for your assertion that the friendly spirits try to protect the Avvar from demons, but they don't actually say much about how often they succeed. You'd imagine that it was most of the time, since the Avvar exist, but for all we know they could be losing clans at a fairly steady rate. Not a fast rate by most metrics, because otherwise there wouldn't be any Avvar, but a steady one is not impossible. Meanwhile it also contains evidence that there are demons to protect the Avvar from, and seems to lightly imply that not all of them started that way. That really seems to leave open the possibility of another Avvar god gone wrong, possibly even a game based on that problem.
If the Avvar caged their Mages it would have inevitably led to conflict and war like Circle.
That happened anyway. The Avvar weren't exactly united behind the Jaws of Hakkon. (Although given the power the Jaws alone had it's a good thing they weren't, since the Jaws were a threat to Orlais. If the Avvar had united they'd be a danger to all of humanity, and the other races besides.)
No system is foolproof. That is an impossible standard.
Does that mean the Circle having a civil war every few centuries, and an Annulment an average of twice a century, isn't all that bad?
Clearly the Mages disagreed.
Clearly some of the mages disagreed. That "the mages" disagreed is less clear. I don't think we're ever actually shown to what extent the mages as a whole wanted the result they got.
My understanding is that the vote in Asunder that really kicked things off happened after things went all to hell thanks to a combination of Lambert's inept PR and Adrian's amoral and cynical manipulation. I can see a mage who wants the Circle deciding that they aren't getting what they want and just acknowledging that the system is gone, and voting accordingly.
For that matter I don't think it's made clear that the deciding vote (the Aequitarian representative) knew what the Aequitarian fraternity wanted; he only just became their representative, and would have to have gotten an accurate read of them over the course of his time in the fraternity, not to mention that nobody's ever told me he even tried. Admittedly I haven't actually read the book and am just basing all of this off the way other pro-templars characterize things, but I don't remember ever seeing a pro-mage answer any of this.
Here's where we get into the stuff I personally can swear to: even after the vote, the Hasmal and Montsimmard Circles still had mages loyal to the system inside them, despite some of the Libertarians in Monstimmard killing mages who were loyal to the Circle. (Who struck first is not made clear; Vivienne is lightly implied to believe the rebels were at fault, but she doesn't back it up. Anyway, that is not central to my point; my point is that there were loyalists.)
And while I haven't played Trespasser, my understanding is that no matter which Divine you pick, there is a Circle of Magi despite the fact that the mages can't really be forced to be part of it anymore in Leiliana's ending. So some clearly still wanted to be a part of it.
I fail to see how a cage, however gilded, is beneficial to anyone other than those who hold the key.
I tried to remedy that, but let's try it again.
It keeps people out as easily as it keeps them in. There are lynch mobs after mages, and while the Chantry's teachings and the existence of Tevinter might be responsible for some of that, I don't remember anyone ever giving a good answer to the point that it's partially because mages are legitimately scary. When Wynne and her group are confronted by a bunch of ornery peasants who seem to have been going in that direction, the peasants clearly don't care about the Chantry's unproven accusations about the Black City. One thing they mention is the assassination attempt on the Divine, (which you can argue was the Chantry's fault, though I personally disagree) but the fact remains that they've found reason enough to be scared of mages around their own community. (Some of it is questionably magical, but enough of it isn't that better education would mitigate the problem rather than solving it. Not that that wouldn't be on my to-do list if I ruled Thedas.)
Besides which, the gilded cage also comes with some fringe benefits that the mages would have had difficulty getting otherwise. Meals, board, and an education. The education isn't even just magical training: the mages seem to be literate in a setting where you really can't assume your average man on the street is. You can argue that the mages should be free to seek that out on their own, but this doesn't seem to be a setting where they have any guarantee of success, and a mage who fails to gain meals is a pretty serious danger.
And not to put too fine a point on it, but mundanes benefiting at mages expense is not the worst that can happen. Mundanes are the majority faction. If a system legitimately makes mundanes safer at mages expense, it's not as bad as mages being freer at the expense of mundanes.
I wouldn't bother arguing with TKS. Practically everyone on this forum has given up trying to argue with him considering all his posts act as though his opinion is undisputed fact.
It's better to just ignore him since absolutely nothing you say will ever convince him.
Sorry, once again that you are unable to distinguish opinion from fact is hardly my fault as well that you are unable to counter either my opinion or facts i present.
There is plenty of things you can say to convince me and those are rightly used facts that would support what you are saying , that you were unable to do so isn't exactly my fault. 
I wouldn't bother arguing with TKS. Practically everyone on this forum has given up trying to argue with him considering all his posts act as though his opinion is undisputed fact.
It's better to just ignore him since absolutely nothing you say will ever convince him.
TKS provides entertainment and some alternative insights outside the collective hive mind. There, I said it. 
TKS provides entertainment and some alternative insights outside the collective hive mind. There, I said it.
Some of his insights are even valid.
Some of his insights are even valid.
Every my insight is valid and supported by good old reality.
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