413 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

I think I want to reinforce the idea of the "natural" like the Qunari, but they make no room for magic at all.

 

And perhaps they're right. Magic is unnatural, and a result of Veil.. that it was never meant to be. So the Qunari go to the furthest extreme and look down on anything associated with it. But I sort of view magic as the cards we were dealt. Maybe it's not originally "natural", but it is as far as Thedas is concerned now. There's nothing that can be done about it, short of destroying the world. Which is dumb. So the best thing to do is try to live with it. This is the Chantry view, I guess. Calling it both a blessing and curse.

[Cute Nug]

Looks like a couple of blood mages or abominations can force most people they capture into becoming an abomination against their will.

 

Although, I think the random abomination problem was fixed in DAI. In DAO and DA2 you couldn't swing a nug without hitting an abomination but in DAI they stopped happening. I think the heroes Solas and Corybits must have fixed the abomination problem.

[Kurogane335]

In this regard, the Qunari probably are wrong : magic is natural, and it is the inability to wield it which is unnatural. After all, I've a hard time believing that only the Elvhen were all mages. But we can't be certain of that as long as we don't know what were the ancestors of the human tribes and the Kossith, and if they also had magic among all their members.

[straykat]

Looks like a couple of blood mages or abominations can force most people they capture into becoming an abomination against their will.

 

Although, I think the random abomination problem was fixed in DAI. In DAO and DA2 you couldn't swing a nug without hitting an abomination but in DAI they stopped happening. I think the heroes Solas and Corybits must have fixed the abomination problem.

 

Not sure if they can just force it. I suppose you have to be on some badass level to resist, like Irving did with Uldred.

 

Of course, the chant thing Wynne gave us helped too.

[Sah291]

I think I want to reinforce the idea of the "natural" like the Qunari, but they make no room for magic at all.
 
And perhaps they're right. Magic is unnatural, and a result of Veil.. that it was never meant to be. So the Qunari go to the furthest extreme and look down on anything associated with it. But I sort of view magic as the cards we were dealt. Maybe it's not originally "natural", but it is as far as Thedas is concerned now. There's nothing that can be done about it, short of destroying the world. Which is dumb. So the best thing to do is try to live with it. This is the Chantry view, I guess. Calling it both a blessing and curse.

To make things even more complicated, there are mages who share the same world view as well... And Templars who don't. Leading to the whole blood mage/red templar counter rebellion. Which at first seems counterintuitive, but totally isn't.

Then there's the Inquisition which was I think supposed to be an answer to that, with mages and Chantry folks working together towards the same goal. Look at the Inquisition symbol...an all seeing eye with a templar sword through it.

[Kakistos_]

So as long as you do not consent to possession, you will not be possessed ? A demon cannot overpower a mage by brute force and possess them ?

 

This is true, a Mage must consent but as seen in The Broken Circle this is not always a passive or civil exchange. The Mages in the Circle were being tortured into allowing Demons in and as seen with Connor and the Harrowing Mage Origin, Mages can be tricked or seduced into consenting. Demons cannot possess through brute force. In cases where Demons have possessed non Mages, the victims in question likely not knowing much about Demons and having no associated training "consented" without having any idea what they where doing as opposed to Mages and Templars trained to combat such threats.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So as long as you do not consent to possession, you will not be possessed ? A demon cannot overpower a mage by brute force and possess them ?

Technically they can't, in practice demons are capable of mind-control so it isn't just as easy as refuse and everything will be fine.To make things worse demons are often masters of manipulation that can read you like a book as well trick your mind with illusion. When Demon crossed veil it is another story and will physically will force possession on other mages.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Is it really impossible for a demon to possess someone by force? Because the Rage Demon in the Mage Origin really seemed to be trying to do that, and a lot is made of a mage needing magic power to "protect themselves from demons." (As I recall the Tranquil in Redcliffe's Tavern said he was made that way because he didn't have enough power for the job.)

[TheKomandorShepard]

Is it really impossible for a demon to possess someone by force? Because the Rage Demon in the Mage Origin really seemed to be trying to do that, and a lot is made of a mage needing magic power to "protect themselves from demons." (As I recall the Tranquil in Redcliffe's Tavern said he was made that way because he didn't have enough power for the job.)

 

Rage demon might have been just a hoax set up by pride demon in order to possess the warden, while mages would still need to protect themselves from demons that may attack them in the fade,though i can see demon trying to weaken person will by attacking them.According to DG in this interview mage have to agree but it isn't just as simple as it may seem.  

 

 

TUK: With mages and possession, does a mage actually have to agree to a deal with a demon in order to get possessed, or can it just happen? Can demons just go "Ah-hah, you're asleep, I will slip in while nobody's looking..." Is the truth different from what the Chantry says on the subject?

DG: They have to agree, but agree doesn't necessarily mean a conscious "Yes, please, please come in my body and turn me into a twisted abomination." Agreeing can be a moment of weakness. If you're unwilling or unable to resist being possessed then you'll be possessed. There are mages who make an intelligent bargain with a demon. Sometimes, the tricky part, something we haven't been able to show very well, is sometimes they're not aware that's what they're doing. I don't know how many people have read Asunder, the last Dragon Age novel. That does show a bit of how it's possible for a mage to be in contact with a demon and not even be aware that that's what's happening, and agreeing to things that they don't know that they're agreeing to. To say that a mage must agree is both true and false in the sense that a lot of it relates to the will of the mage and their strength to resist a very determined demon, but I think you can also see from the games and the novels that there are levels of possession as well. Not everybody who becomes possessed by a demon immediately turns into an abomination and starts attacking everything in sight. It depends on the type of demon that's attempting to take possession, how powerful they are, how intelligent they are, and the mage in question. As is typical of Dragon Age, the answer is never [typical].

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So what I'm getting from this is that the mage needs to "agree," but "agreeing" while only 25% conscious (because the demon beat you until you have trouble remembering your own name) is okay?

 

Edit: Wait, actually, I think if you read some of the middle bit closely enough it says that a sufficiently weak mage can be forcibly possessed by a "really determined" demon. The third sentence of Gaider's explanation also seems to indicate that a weak mage can be forced without even bothering with the preliminary beating.

 

Edit 2: And even if the mechanics basically follow the first impression I got, the distinction between "force your way into someone's mind" and "beat someone until they agree to let you in, even if they're seeing stars and don't realize they agreed to let you in" is not a very big one.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So what I'm getting from this is that the mage needs to "agree," but "agreeing" while only 25% conscious (because the demon beat you until you have trouble remembering your own name) is okay?

 

Edit: Wait, actually, I think if you read some of the middle bit closely enough it says that a sufficiently weak mage can be forcibly possessed by a "really determined" demon. The third sentence of Gaider's explanation also seems to indicate that a weak mage can be forced without even bothering with the preliminary beating.

 

I would say weak in the sense unable to resist demon tricks and illusions as DG said demons are capable screw with mage mind to the point they don't know what they are doing like in Feynriel case or just mind control mage like demons did with Merrill.

 

Beat mage into submission seems to be only applied when demon already crossed veil , while in the fade demons resort to trickery ,illusion and mind control in order to possess mage. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I would say weak in the sense unable to resist demon tricks and illusions as DG said demons are capable screw with mage mind to the point they don't know what they are doing like in Feynriel case or just mind control mage like demons did with Merrill.

 

Beat mage into submission seems to be only applied when demon already crossed veil , while in the fade demons resort to trickery ,illusion and mind control in order to possess mage. 

Okay, that makes sense, but it still seems to me that unless being beaten into it was a danger that the Templars saw all too often Clemence's lack of raw power wouldn't be bad enough to be worth Tranquiling him over. That's not to say that screwing with their minds isn't a demon's preferred way of handling it, just that they apparently use the inelegant means of doing so often enough to worry about it.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Okay, that makes sense, but it still seems to me that unless being beaten into it was a danger that the Templars saw all too often Clemence's lack of raw power wouldn't be bad enough to be worth Tranquiling him over. That's not to say that screwing with their minds isn't a demon's preferred way of handling it, just that they apparently use the inelegant means of doing so often enough to worry about it.

From what i see in video rather than raw power Clemence mentions lack of strong will as reason for his and other mages tranquility

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

From what i see in video rather than raw power Clemence mentions lack of strong will as reason for his and other mages tranquility

Not really. "Talent for magic" doesn't necessarily mean raw power, but it does more comfortably mean that than it does "willpower."

[TheKomandorShepard]

Not really.

That is because it was mage Inquistor that didn't need an explanation on what is tranquil.In other cases you ask him about tranquility ,he points then lack strength of will as reason.  

[Ieldra]

Here's my take on the matter:

 

(1) There is a difference between possession and joining. In the latter case, the spirit or demon doesn't take complete control of the human, but the two beings join willingly and each brings something into the union. In the former case. the demon takes over completely. The results of a joinng can be good or bad, but needn't result in the typical chaotic behaviour of so-called "abominations". Considering the type of human who'd willingly join with a demon, the results are probably unpleasant but the actions of such an entity may not necessarily be distinquishable from those of an unpleasant but normal human. 

 

(2) As I see it, temptation by a demon can be successful whenever the victim isn't quite sane. A sane human would never agree to the type of bargain a demon usually offers, since it involves letting the demon in with no strings attached. The single plausible instance of such a thing in the DA games and stories I found in "The Last Flight". There are moments when you think you'd give anything in order for a particular outcome. This may be in war and on the verge of losing, or if you're desperately in love, or any other situation of high emotion. The trait the demon represents must be present and be so strong that it threatens to overwhelm your rational faculties. Subtle demons may try to inspire such emotion over time by various means, some of them magical in nature, but they can't take over until then. If a mageborn is overconfident enough to agree to let a demon in with no strings attached while apparently sane, then this is likely a case of pride overwhelming their rational faculties. No cases have been reported where such a thing ended well, so it's not rational to think you're the sole exception and bet your mental freedom on it.

 

(3) Mage training to avoid possession will necessarily include mental disciplines to keep your sanity in situations of high emotion. I'd say this is a kind of training anyone would profit from, but for the mageborn it's a necessity. I see parallels with Jedi training in the Star Wars universe.

 

(4) Tranquility will be applied to those mageborn who are unable to acquire these mental disciplines, regardless of their innate magical power or talent. Being emotionally unstable to start with is probably a risk factor. Considering typical human development and the fact that magic usually manifests during puberty, mage training is probably rather difficult. Tranquility may remain a necessity unless a different method of locking a mageborn away from demons is found.

[Silcron]

About the whole level of agreement. I think it's more about not being able to resist. Like a demon could make it seem or maybe even make you feel like you really, really want what it offers and you really, really don't want to ask questions, or in other words, I kinda see it like skipping a diet. You know it's not good for you, you know you shouldn't, but you really, really want that piece of cake. It's even talking to me and saying that it won't really affect me. *eats cake* See? Nothing really happened and the cake was so good. What? No, of course I've always looked like a naked woman with horns and purple flame for hair. I know, a bit strange seeing as I was born male but then again, define "normal."

[straykat]

About the whole level of agreement. I think it's more about not being able to resist. Like a demon could make it seem or maybe even make you feel like you really, really want what it offers and you really, really don't want to ask questions, or in other words, I kinda see it like skipping a diet. You know it's not good for you, you know you shouldn't, but you really, really want that piece of cake. It's even talking to me and saying that it won't really affect me. *eats cake* See? Nothing really happened and the cake was so good. What? No, of course I've always looked like a naked woman with horns and purple flame for hair. I know, a bit strange seeing as I was born male but then again, define "normal."

 

It seems like you always have to keep in mind to believe nothing/trust nothing.. even when it seems harmless. That's kind of the problem with the companions in the DA2 Fade level.

 

As long as someone has principles there, I'd think they could resist.

[Sah291]

The trait the demon represents must be present and be so strong that it threatens to overwhelm your rational faculties. Subtle demons may try to inspire such emotion over time by various means, some of them magical in nature, but they can't take over until then.

Exactly, demons in the game have been consistently shown to prey on the specific desires/fears/insecurities/etc. the mage already possesses, and mages with certain traits seem to attract particular demons that represent those things.

They can try to presuade or torture someone until they give in, but not if they are tempting them with something the person doesn't actually want or care about... What would be the point? In almost every case so far, if you refuse a demon's offer then they usually just resort to fighting you (with intent to kill not possess).

I think this just goes back to the general idea in the fantasy genre that demons respect free will and contracts...and DA demons appear to be the same, particularlly the higher level and more cunning desire (choice spirits!) and pride demons. They might confuse or trick you to sign your soul away, but they do it in a way that you consented. Lower level demons like rage and hunger demons represent more base level emotions.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Here's my take on the matter:

 

(1) There is a difference between possession and joining. In the latter case, the spirit or demon doesn't take complete control of the human, but the two beings join willingly and each brings something into the union. In the former case. the demon takes over completely. The results of a joinng can be good or bad, but needn't result in the typical chaotic behaviour of so-called "abominations". Considering the type of human who'd willingly join with a demon, the results are probably unpleasant but the actions of such an entity may not necessarily be distinquishable from those of an unpleasant but normal human. 

 

(2) As I see it, temptation by a demon can be successful whenever the victim isn't quite sane. A sane human would never agree to the type of bargain a demon usually offers, since it involves letting the demon in with no strings attached. The single plausible instance of such a thing in the DA games and stories I found in "The Last Flight". There are moments when you think you'd give anything in order for a particular outcome. This may be in war and on the verge of losing, or if you're desperately in love, or any other situation of high emotion. The trait the demon represents must be present and be so strong that it threatens to overwhelm your rational faculties. Subtle demons may try to inspire such emotion over time by various means, some of them magical in nature, but they can't take over until then. If a mageborn is overconfident enough to agree to let a demon in with no strings attached while apparently sane, then this is likely a case of pride overwhelming their rational faculties. No cases have been reported where such a thing ended well, so it's not rational to think you're the sole exception and bet your mental freedom on it.

 

(3) Mage training to avoid possession will necessarily include mental disciplines to keep your sanity in situations of high emotion. I'd say this is a kind of training anyone would profit from, but for the mageborn it's a necessity. I see parallels with Jedi training in the Star Wars universe.

 

(4) Tranquility will be applied to those mageborn who are unable to acquire these mental disciplines, regardless of their innate magical power or talent. Being emotionally unstable to start with is probably a risk factor. Considering typical human development and the fact that magic usually manifests during puberty, mage training is probably rather difficult. Tranquility may remain a necessity unless a different method of locking a mageborn away from demons is found.

 

Sometimes I try to think what class I would be in Thedas and at first I would go -"I want to be a mage, they can do magic and they study a lot, which I do."

 

Then I look deeper and I realize that I would make a bad mage because I can't even stop myself from eating unhealthy delicious food even though I promised myself I will stop doing that. If I can't even resist food, what chance do I have against sexually enticing Desire Demons ? I mean, I can handle the other demons because they look like hideous crap but Desire Demons ? That will be hard to resist. Besides, if you are careless with magic, it will backfire on you and you would be screwed and I am careless in mathematics even though I am good at it. Can you imagine being carless with a fireball spell ?

 

That is why I end up choosing to be an archer rogue instead. I have stolen plenty of things IRL, whenever I fight I have fought dirty (screw honor), if I get careless it would just result in a bowstring hurting my arm or chest and I can use stealth to run away when things go FUBAR.
 

[Silcron]

Sometimes I try to think what class I would be in Thedas and at first I would go -"I want to be a mage, they can do magic and they study a lot, which I do."
 
Then I look deeper and I realize that I would make a bad mage because I can't even stop myself from eating unhealthy delicious food even though I promised myself I will stop doing that. If I can't even resist food, what chance do I have against sexually enticing Desire Demons ? I mean, I can handle the other demons because they look like hideous crap but Desire Demons ? That will be hard to resist. Besides, if you are careless with magic, it will backfire on you and you would be screwed and I am careless in mathematics even though I am good at it. Can you imagine being carless with a fireball spell ?
 
That is why I end up choosing to be an archer rogue instead. I have stolen plenty of things IRL, whenever I fight I have fought dirty (screw honor), if I get careless it would just result in a bowstring hurting my arm or chest and I can use stealth to run away when things go FUBAR.

I always got the impression that that honor was the stereotypical one. I think the real honor has more to do with being sportive, a good sport? (I don't know if I'm using the right expression, sorry.) So, if you agree to have a duel, and set x rules for a duel you don't break them, but in a fight like being ambushed by bandits? That's survival and self defense, it doesn't make sense to handicap yourself.

Like a knight throwing dirt to the face of a bandit is not dishonorable or honorable, it's using your environment. There are no rules in a fight, but there are rules in a duel.

On topic? If I was a mage proud and desire demons would get me. Pride less so, as it's a character flaw I actively fight with, but desire? Even my PCs in DA have a bad record of resisting them, or Isabella.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Bayonet Hipshot: 

In DA: O... true tests never end.  Demon possession was an actual terrifying aspect of being a mage. 

 

By the time DA:I rolls around.  Possession?  We can be possessed?  Since when?

[Sah291]

To be fair, back in DAO and even DA2, the whole point of possesion was to get out of the fade...so by the time DAI rolls around they can just come through rifts. But yeah...and abominations were supposed to be rare, and Tranquils were really emotionless and creepy....

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I always got the impression that that honor was the stereotypical one. I think the real honor has more to do with being sportive, a good sport? (I don't know if I'm using the right expression, sorry.) So, if you agree to have a duel, and set x rules for a duel you don't break them, but in a fight like being ambushed by bandits? That's survival and self defense, it doesn't make sense to handicap yourself.

Like a knight throwing dirt to the face of a bandit is not dishonorable or honorable, it's using your environment. There are no rules in a fight, but there are rules in a duel.

On topic? If I was a mage proud and desire demons would get me. Pride less so, as it's a character flaw I actively fight with, but desire? Even my PCs in DA have a bad record of resisting them, or Isabella.

 

If I was in a duel, I would probably find ways to break the rules without anyone noticing. If people do find out, this would be my response...

 

 

Opponent:- "You cheated !"

 

Me:- "Rogue."

 

 

@Bayonet Hipshot: 

In DA: O... true tests never end.  Demon possession was an actual terrifying aspect of being a mage. 

 

By the time DA:I rolls around.  Possession?  We can be possessed?  Since when?

 

This. Also, no Desire Demons who promise big boats make possession something that is easily resistable.

[Aren]

But according to the lore, it is much rarer to become possessed by a spirit since they tend to have no need or desire to do so... And also because, according to Anders, they have mostly given up on people. Implying people are not very virtuous and don't seek help from spirits anymore.

^This