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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

the Avvar very likely kill them... and the Dalish probably pawn them off to alienages (neither of those last two are confirmed - but I believe they make sense). 

My understanding was that Jaws of Hakkon did confirm the Avvar bit.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Riverdaleswhiteflash:  Thank you.  I was waiting for someone to say:  "No, only the evil Chantry and their propaganda would do bad things to mages!" 

 

It makes sense - their barbarian culture is based on strength... people with weaknesses... especially those the shamans of their culture deem magically dangerous would naturally be killed, left out in the cold, whatever. 

 

It's cruel... it's not "the best solution" - but what is?  Harboring people incapable of fighting possession until they turn into abominations and THEN kill them?  Perhaps. But the blood of all the people that get hurt in the process would then by on my hands... and I'm not sure which is worse.  

[Bayonet Hipshot]

To think that all the problems we are talking about now is caused because Solas decided to create the Veil...I mean the fact that only some people are capable of magic, the whole demon shenanigans...Its all his doing...

[Cute Nug]

To think that all the problems we are talking about now is caused because Solas decided to create the Veil...I mean the fact that only some people are capable of magic, the whole demon shenanigans...Its all his doing...

 

In his defense, the hero of Thedas, Solas apparently has a plan to fix the Veil problem.

[eyezonlyii]

I used to be staunchly pro mage freedom, and in some respects still am. My boyfriend at the time however, was very pro Templar (mind you neither of us were anti the other faction), and after multiple conversations with him and incorporating his real life worldview into things, as well as looking at the lore more deeply, i had to amend my stance. 

 

Mages, we're told (but definitely not shown in our immediate circle) are constantly trying to resist demons and the horrors of the fade. Think about it, we have nightmares, we wake up scared/slightly shaken. A mage has a nightmare and can burn down a house unknowingly, or a child sees his father is dying and then someone comes along and say s/he'll help, and then wreaks havoc on the surrounding castle and villiage.

 

A teen knows that he's probably going to miss the cut for mageship, which unfortunately means that he will be stripped of all emotion and connection to the Fade. So he turns to a corrupting power to make himself stronger. On top of that the woman he loves is part of the system that was created to keep people like him in check and he got caught trying to escape, thus using the power at his disposal, and putting down multiple Templars, a First Enchanter, Grey Warden and magical Prodigy. And this was a kid untrained in the power blood. Imagine if he had been a Tevinter mage...

 

So yes, there needs to be some sort of oversight.

[Sah291]

@Medhia_Nox,
Yeah, other cultures do have their own cruel ways of dealing with problematic mages... That was one reason given for mages prefering the Circle system over living like Dalish, etc. People have different theories about what freedom means. Some think it means protecting society, and some think it means being protected from it, basically.

If demons are the main issue and not mages or magic in of itself, then maybe there should be more of an effort to understand what demons are and where they come from, rather than just focusing on mages. Mages are the most vulnerable, but not the only ones in danger.

As for not all mages being created equal. That's true of pretty much anyone, mage or not. Not everyone is equally as wealthy, high status, intelligent, strong, or clever. To the Chantry's credit they have a philosophy that places value in the individual, but mages like Anders felt that this ought to apply to everyone, mages included.

@TheKomandorShepard,
The Qunari might not be aiming to blow up the world, but they are at least as likely as any mage based society (Tevinter), to have imperial ambitions and to conquer other societies.

My point was not that being able to blow stuff up makes someone more powerful or superior, but that non mages are not inherently weak. Having high ability to be objective, use logic and reason, and to engineer is an incredible strength. It's not all about magic.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If demons are the main issue and not mages or magic in of itself, then maybe there should be more of an effort to understand what demons are and where they come from, rather than just focusing on mages.

You mean like the writer of the Envy demon codex entry did?

[TheKomandorShepard]

@TheKomandorShepard,
The Qunari might not be aiming to blow up the world, but they are at least as likely as any mage based society (Tevinter), to have imperial ambitions and to conquer other societies.

My point was not that being able to blow stuff up makes someone more powerful or superior, but that non mages are not inherently weak. Having high ability to be objective, use logic and reason, and to engineer is an incredible strength. It's not all about magic.

The qunari want only conquer not destroy world what is vastly different to the dangers of magic and threat that mages pose.Desire of expansion will exist always well at least as long society and mankind exists, but also requires political power that is diffrent from personal power like in case of mages.Qunari are collective threat to thedas that threten other's culture and society, Mages are threat as individuals to existence of mankind. 

[Cute Nug]

I deeply like the complexity of the DA mage issue that Bioware created. I think reasonable people will have different thoughts on how to deal with it because it is a well done complex issue that makes DA interesting.

 

I was disappointed that DAI didn't meaningfully address the lack of abominations and the murder of the tranquils. They could have added to the lore by even addressing the game mechanics change in mage spells in DAI although that might be a stretch. 

 

I also find it odd that Thedas didn't seem that interested that a proto-darkspawn Second Sin magister was walking around Thedas after being secretly imprisoned by the Grey Wardens. Seems like this huge lore bomb would have had more interesting immediate impact on life in Thedas and the mage issue that DAI could have shown.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sah291:  I absolutely agree with you.  Spirits and demons are extra-dimensional invaders.  Regardless of whether it's to give us hugs or turn us into sock puppets - they are completely incompatible with mortality.  

 

I don't believe the Veil caused this.  I think they've always been like this.  I think the Veil going up made it harder for spirits/demons to dominate mortals.  

 

And it absolutely is true (not everyone being made equal) - but if I can't compete like an Olympian athlete - the worst that happens is that I'm not in the Olympics.  The worst that happens when mages can't use their magic... is that they kill people, become abominations, get possessed or resort to blood magic in a panic. 

 

A very real example would be lunatics in real life.  Mages hear voices... mages have "alternate personalities" trying to take over their bodies... and mages are prone to being taken over by these often dangerous personalities.  In the real world we often put away true lunatics forever.  It's cruel, but what is the alternative?  The true horror of real lunacy is that you can't overcome it.  As a mage - you can - with training.  So, I say forcing training on mages is a kindness.  

 

You cannot fight the spirit/demon invasion... with poorly trained mages who just want to do whatever they feel like.

 

There were a lot of injustices the Circles committed that... sadly.. are also committed in places like asylums (I know they don't call them that anymore) - or old folks homes - etc.  It's funny that the people I believe these terrible injustices are actually mirroring - are all incapable of likely ever experiencing these games... leaving outcast minorities to fight their social justice wars on their backs.  

[Sah291]

You mean like the writer of the Envy demon codex entry did?

I mean like avoiding doing things that knowingly create or strengthen demons...less torturing of spirits and people like Cole, etc.

I don't mean just for the sake of gaining more knowledge/power. Using Wisdom versus Pride.

But this idea to avoid/cage anything/everything potentially dangerous is also a dangerous thing, when taken too far. Not only that, it is impossible, unless everyone is tranquil....or dead. The last time someone tried..well, ask Solas.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I think that the Circle solution could have worked if the Chantry did a few things. 

 

1) Take a leaf out of the Qun. What am I talking about you might ask ?

 

I'm talking about the Tamassarans, specifically one particular duty they perform within the Qun :- Provide psychological counseling and rehabilitation to those overwhelmed by stress and mental fatigue. This includes granting sexual relief to Qunari in need

 

Source :- http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Tamassran

 

The Chantry should have created a position, a specific type of Chantry sister or priest, or a specific kind of Templar recruit who provide psychological counseling and rehabilitation to those overwhelmed by stress and mental fatigue including granting sexual relief to mages in need.

 

For example, just imagine Cullen providing counseling and sexual relief. I am sure female Amell and female Surana would not have even wanted to leave the Circle.

 

2) Provide some form of entertainment.

 

This is basic logic but if you are going to lock a bunch of people up in one place, they are going to get all cranky unless there is way for them to enjoy themselves once in a while.

 

To that end, the Chantry should have allowed performers, bards, artists, thespians etc to visit the Circle and perform a play or hold a concert once in a while. Just some nice entertainment, for both the mages and templars, to take their mind off things.

 

Ultimately, the Circle system failed because as Solas accurately points out, you cannot put a lid on a pot of boiling water and just expect nothing to happen. The Chantry should have allowed the energy, the crankiness, the tensions to be channeled off by providing counseling, sexual relief and general entertainment.

 

At the end of the day, Circles of Magi are kinda like colleges and universities in the real world. & what do college folks do when they feel they need to burn off steam ? Party, have sex, watch movies and play games. The Chantry should have allowed some of that.

[TheKomandorShepard]

But this idea to avoid/cage anything/everything potentially dangerous is also a dangerous thing, when taken too far. Not only that, it is impossible, unless everyone is tranquil....or dead. The last time someone tried..well, ask Solas.

Except you are going into complete extreme here and think it is about only locking on basis that you are dangerous what in short would mean everyone and would impossible and mostly pointless.What matters here as well in every other cases how dangerous something is , and mages are much more dangerous to world safety than everyone else.

 

 

*Chop*

Or chantry could simply lock them in solitary confinement for good significantly tightening regulations and freedoms to almost none creating slim chances of escape, of course that is assuming that we are going with chantry idea of imprisoning mages.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Bayonet Hipshot:  Excellent start to reforms that are so painfully obviously needed.  You covered sex and counseling.

 

- Let people see their families. WTF Chantry?  I understand "why" they did it... letting mages live in emotionally charged environments spells disaster(pun intended).  I am positive Tevinter parents just happily give their mages to the Circles:  "Here, now train little Dorian to be the best Magister that ever walked Tevinter!"  and the Avvar probably offer up magical children as vessels for the divine.  But forbidden visitations?  Stupid. 

 

- Harrowing provides you with limited release into the world.  Further years of successful training and service provide you with more and more.  It's not like we don't see mages walking around all the time.  Either mages really aren't prisoners or something is already in effect for "good behavior".  Regardless... let your mages get out.  You already have phylacteries... if you let them out, cause problems, they become Tranquil.  End of story. 

 

- Put them to work!  Seriously... why are there no healing mage clinics?  Why aren't primalists used to excavate the earth, provide wind for sails or mills, provide heat for forges, furnaces, etc. - Why aren't spirit mages walking around repairing the Fade?  Banishing spirits? 

 

If these people had jobs they'd have less time to whine.  And then comes money... which gives a level of autonomy. 

 

"Circle Bad - let everyone run free" is the idiot way to deal with the situation.  "Reform" is essential.

 

Maker Bless you Divine Cassandra. 

@TheKomandorShepard:  Honestly?  You're hardly being productive.

[Sah291]

@Medhia_Nox,
Well, I agree with what you've said before (I think it was you?), that people project a lot of different things onto the whole mage/templar/chantry debate... Which isn't a bad thing, in my opinion, fiction gives us a chance to think about and debate real issues and problems. But if we all see mages as a metaphor for different things, then there's really no right or wrong interpretation.

At any rate, no individual mage has so far been shown to have such great power to singlehandedly destroy the world, or cause such destruction. Not even Cory. He would be nowhere without his demon slave army and followers. Not even Solas. He would be nowhere without his elven rebellion and spy network, or tagging along with the Inquisition. There is a limit to a mages individual power.

Even insane ultra powerful mages like Cory who fancy themselves gods... This is not becoming a god in the same sense as being like the maker... And they don't get to that point alone. Like Solas says about the elven gods. There was a war. First they were hereoes. Then they became gods. That means people worshipped them, and that is where the power comes from.

Solas traps them and raises the Veil, because he can't simply kill them. Why, because being gods, they also represent ideas, ideals. Not unlike the Inquisitor, who becomes a living prophet, as the Herald of Andraste.

This is not unlike what a spirit is/does. They represent ideas...thoughts, virtues, ideals, etc. They are not just foreign creatures from another world...but reflections of the world itself.

Given the lore, there is nothing particularly remarkable about mages, outside of the fact that they retained a natural talent for connecting to the fade, post Veil. When the Inquisitor gains the mark, they gain this ability too, mage or no.

[eyezonlyii]

I seriously wonder what the ratio of mage to non-mage is in Thedas. Sure we see a lot of mages, but that's because we are in the space where that is a thing as a main character. It's kind of like what happened in Mass Effect with bioticsof every species except for Asari. They were supposedly super rare, but they're all over the place in the games, then someone pointed out, (I can't remember if it was in game or not) that the reason is because what else is there for a biotic  to do but join the military? They get training on their abilities and since the game is about a military campaign, that's where you would see the majority of them.

 

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that if mages are super rare, couple that with the general mistrust of magic in Thedas from the non mage population and you can see why there would be little in the way of an effort to provide refrorm/relief for them. 

[Sah291]

Except you are going into complete extreme here and think it is about only locking on basis that you are dangerous what in short would mean everyone and would impossible and mostly pointless.What matters here as well in every other cases how dangerous something is , and mages are much more dangerous to world safety than everyone else.

I get what you are saying, but you are collectivizing a group as all equally dangerous and equally likely to go insane, when they are individuals.

By this logic, someone should be locking up the nobility.

[Kakistos_]

I used to be staunchly pro mage freedom, and in some respects still am. My boyfriend at the time however, was very pro Templar (mind you neither of us were anti the other faction), and after multiple conversations with him and incorporating his real life worldview into things, as well as looking at the lore more deeply, i had to amend my stance. 

 

Mages, we're told (but definitely not shown in our immediate circle) are constantly trying to resist demons and the horrors of the fade. Think about it, we have nightmares, we wake up scared/slightly shaken. A mage has a nightmare and can burn down a house unknowingly, or a child sees his father is dying and then someone comes along and say s/he'll help, and then wreaks havoc on the surrounding castle and villiage.

 

A teen knows that he's probably going to miss the cut for mageship, which unfortunately means that he will be stripped of all emotion and connection to the Fade. So he turns to a corrupting power to make himself stronger. On top of that the woman he loves is part of the system that was created to keep people like him in check and he got caught trying to escape, thus using the power at his disposal, and putting down multiple Templars, a First Enchanter, Grey Warden and magical Prodigy. And this was a kid untrained in the power blood. Imagine if he had been a Tevinter mage...

 

So yes, there needs to be some sort of oversight.

 

That is inaccurate. Mages are not constantly under siege by Demons. Despite what gameplay may suggest, lore wise Abominations are exceedingly rare and even the Chantry admits this. A vast majority of Mages, even in heavy Blood Mages populated areas like Tevinter, never succumb to the temptations of Demons and become Abominations. As for Blood Magic, Cullen once said something along the lines of "if even a fraction of Mages used Blood Magic they could turn the world asunder". This is clearly not the case. Some societies with free Mages, like the Avvar, do have spells and rituals that would cause Templars to sweat but they are put to use for the good of their society.

[Steelcan]

That is inaccurate. Mages are not constantly under siege by Demons. Despite what gameplay may suggest, lore wise Abominations are exceedingly rare and even the Chantry admits this. A vast majority of Mages, even in heavy Blood Mages populated areas like Tevinter, never succumb to the temptations of Demons and become Abominations. As for Blood Magic, Cullen once said something along the lines of "if even a fraction of Mages used Blood Magic they could turn the world asunder". This is clearly not the case. Some societies with free Mages, like the Avvar, do have spells and rituals that would cause Templars to sweat but they are put to use for the good of their society.

They are while casting spells, as per the book Last Flight, and if they use blood magic they can hear demons trying to possess them at the level of a deafenin roar, a normal spell just renders them as whispers.  But yes mages are constantly under siege while practicing magic.

 

 

Tevinter has self policing mages in that the ones who cannot best demons are likely not strong enough to ever amount to anything in Tevinter or are killed off by their rivals.

 

And the Avvar kill weak mages susceptible to possession.  So they aren't exactly bettering everyone.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Kakistos_:  What is "rare" exactly?  I'm leaving out the "exceedingly" because I feel that's you're personal opinion.  The Codexes simply suggest rare.

 

And one might extrapolate that if demons are 1) immortal and 2) innumerable - then they are likely far less rare than imagined.  Given Tevinter studies of demons... both of these seems to be true.

 

And one might even look at undead and sylvans... of course they're not mage - but they're demons seeking a way into the world that couldn't find a mage. 

 

I also believe that the mage in the latest Dragon Age book suggested they always hear whispers... and when they use blood magic it becomes a howling roar. 

 

IF (I didn't read the book) that's true (and I'd personally like it to be) - then yes, they are constantly under siege - even if a mage learns coping techniques.  

 

@Steelcan:  Thank you for confirming what I was writing.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I mean like avoiding doing things that knowingly create or strengthen demons...less torturing of spirits and people like Cole, etc.

I don't mean just for the sake of gaining more knowledge/power. Using Wisdom versus Pride.

That's wiser than interviewing an Envy demon.

 

 

But this idea to avoid/cage anything/everything potentially dangerous is also a dangerous thing, when taken too far. Not only that, it is impossible, unless everyone is tranquil....or dead. The last time someone tried..well, ask Solas.

Yeah, but we can at least get a good number of the mages.

 

And if that "ask Solas" thing was meant to refer to his creating the Veil, that seems to have been in balance a good thing. It did stop the Evanuris from enslaving or possibly destroying the world. Besides, I'm not sure spirits who understand the world forming wherever and whenever would be an improvement over a few spirits that don't understand it.

[eyezonlyii]

That is inaccurate. Mages are not constantly under siege by Demons. Despite what gameplay may suggest, lore wise Abominations are exceedingly rare and even the Chantry admits this. A vast majority of Mages, even in heavy Blood Mages populated areas like Tevinter, never succumb to the temptations of Demons and become Abominations. As for Blood Magic, Cullen once said something along the lines of "if even a fraction of Mages used Blood Magic they could turn the world asunder". This is clearly not the case. Some societies with free Mages, like the Avvar, do have spells and rituals that would cause Templars to sweat but they are put to use for the good of their society.

Pride Demon in Dragon Age: Origins-- "True tests never end." A mage must be cautious at all times. It's not that a demon is always there whispering in their ear, but the temptation to just go a little bit further, push a little deeper into the Fade for power is always there. And then there are times when the mage is vulnerable: sleeping, sick, emotionally drained/weary; these are when the demons are lured, because weak prey is easier prey. 

 

Edit: Apparently whispering is a thing, so yeah, that's even worse.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I get what you are saying, but you are collectivizing a group as all equally dangerous and equally likely to go insane, when they are individuals.

By this logic, someone should be locking up the nobility.

That is ridiculous logic and doesn't fit example.

 

Nobility doesn't threat world's safety and basically just rulling class it is acquired tile not something you have born with, lock them up someone else will take their place at the top of the society.

[Steelcan]

I get what you are saying, but you are collectivizing a group as all equally dangerous and equally likely to go insane, when they are individuals.

By this logic, someone should be locking up the nobility.

the nobles can cause some horrific damage, but not anywhere near the level a mage can

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

the nobles can cause some horrific damage, but not anywhere near the level a mage can

Unless the nobility are mages. (**** forbid.)