413 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia_Nox]

@TheKomandorShepard:  I'm not going to get into it too much - real life - is a powder keg on here. 

 

But you are literally in an extinction event your species has caused... there have been only six.  The other five caused by things like giant meteors hitting the planet.  The speed and severity of the extinction even might send us to extinction ourselves.  

 

Technology (which is a product of science) is the means by which we've engineered this destruction (the last one took out this group of animals called the dinosaurs - maybe you've heard of them?) 

 

So no, even Solas' Veil mistake wasn't as bad as what we've done in real life.  

[IllustriousT]

After reading through these posts, sporadically, so please forgive me if I missed something relevant to my question, but I have become curious about something.

 

If using blood magic interferes with the mage's ability to connect with the fade, then how does possession take place? I understand that it might be a breaking down process - maybe  fade magic then has a half-life of sorts and is replaced with this blight magic? Blight magic is different then fade magic, so how do blood mage's who practice blood magic on a regular basis become possessed since they can no longer connect to the fade?

 

I know during DAII, many blood mage's kept throwing themselves at the whim of demons, but would a effort to become possessed then be needed? The will to be possessed instead of an effort to not be? Instead of giving in to possession that may have always existed before the use of blood magic - a blood mage would need to make a concerted effort to touch the fade and invite a demon in. 

 

In this case, blood magic could be used to prevent possession?

 

Just throwing some thought out there.

[TheKomandorShepard]

@TheKomandorShepard:  I'm not going to get into it too much - real life - is a powder keg on here. 

 

But you are literally in an extinction event your species has caused... there have been only six.  The other five caused by things like giant meteors hitting the planet.  The speed and severity of the extinction even might send us to extinction ourselves.  

 

Technology (which is a product of science) is the means by which we've engineered this destruction (the last one took out this group of animals called the dinosaurs - maybe you've heard of them?) 

 

So no, even Solas' Veil mistake wasn't as bad as what we've done in real life.  

 

Well, yeah difference is that mankind is fine and safe at least for now and pretty much safety of mankind from its perspective have priority.Here we talk about damage mankid collectively had done to other species, while in case of mages we talk often about individual or small group of mages that is causing damage and presenting threat to mankind (and often not only).

 

Solas basically killed (well, almost) with magic his own species, pretty much good indicator that putting fate of entire species in hands of one single individual may be bad idea.

[Medhia_Nox]

@TheKomandorShepard: Never disagreed they (mages) need to be responsible for who they are and what they can do.

 

But your solution of (lock every mage up and throw away the key) is pretty absurd.  

[TheKomandorShepard]

@TheKomandorShepard: Never disagreed they (mages) need to be responsible for who they are and what they can do.

 

But your solution of (lock every mage up and throw away the key) is pretty absurd. 

Locking mages up isn't not an absurd only prevention, in that case any mistake may doom entire mankind (as well other species).  .

[Sah291]

@TheKomandorShepard and @Medhia_Nox,
I hesitate to blame technology itself, any more than I would blame magic itself... But more the philosophies and world view of those who tend to be talented with either, when taken to extremes. Cold calculating reason vs. Unpredictable intuition... Or order versus chaos, objective reality vs relativity, if you want to characterize it that way. One is not inherently more evil than the other and both are necessary for creation, and both can be destructive.

The Veil caused what was once a merged/interconnected reality to be forced apart, and each side has drifted further away from the other.

@IllustriousT,
The lore hasn't really explained it yet, but I do have a theory. Blood magic is different from regular magic (drawn from the power of the fade), because it is drawing from the power of the physical plane. Demon possession appears to be a problem for weak blood mages at first, but looking at the more powerful ones we've seen, they are skilled at binding spirits and enslaving demons (not the other way around). I think blood magic (and by extension blight magic) might be a corrupted form of titan magic, and probably tied closely to the earthly/physical world.

[TheKomandorShepard]

@TheKomandorShepard and @Medhia_Nox,
I hesitate to blame technology itself, any more than I would blame magic itself... But more the philosophies and world view of those who tend to be talented with either, when taken to extremes. Cold calculating reason vs. Unpredictable intuition... Or order versus chaos, objective reality vs relativity, if you want to characterize it that way. One is not inherently more evil than the other and both are necessary for creation, and both can be destructive.

 

I never argued about them being "evil" only about magic being much more destructive and unstable than technology as well explaining difference that is magic is at whim of individual while technology can and is controlled by collective, magic/mages aren't necessity in lives of people as well in order to society prosper and survive in fact quite contrary it does much more damage than it is benefit.

[Sah291]

Locking mages up isn't not an absurd only prevention, in that case any mistake may doom entire mankind (as well other species).  .

Except that people who are locked up unjustly will eventually try to escape or rebel, and then you have things like civil wars, etc. It is the reason why even authoritarian rulers don't completely strip all freedoms away from their subjects...and they tend to start losing control when they do (Kirkwall).

The circle mages still had quite a bit of comfort, food, shelter, education on par with the nobility, etc... They were much better off on the face of it than Dalish, or poor peasants and refugees who were just struggling to survive. It's one reason why Fenris had no sympathy for Anders in DA2.

[IllustriousT]

@IllustriousT,
The lore hasn't really explained it yet, but I do have a theory. Blood magic is different from regular magic (drawn from the power of the fade), because it is drawing from the power of the physical plane. Demon possession appears to be a problem for weak blood mages at first, but looking at the more powerful ones we've seen, they are skilled at binding spirits and enslaving demons (not the other way around). I think blood magic (and by extension blight magic) might be a corrupted form of titan magic, and probably tied closely to the earthly/physical world.

 

Interesting theory.

 

 It makes sense, since blood is a vital part of our physical bodies, whereas the fade is the place our life force/souls go once our physical bodies are no longer of any use. Darkspawn are empty vessels with no soul - so, blight magic would be the only kind of magic the emissaries or the Archdemon could conjure, and that makes sense. Blood Magic should then cause a weakening between the soul, therefore leaving Blood Mages...soulless (no pun intended). If soulless, they should not be able to contact demons or spirits that reside in the fade, unless they sacrificed other mages still connected to Fade magic to bind that spirit. 

 

Titan Magic derives from raw lyrium and fade magic uses lyrium, but blood magic does not require lyrium (if I remember correctly) - so I feel that the Titan magic and Fade Magic would be more closely associated with one another. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Except that people who are locked up unjustly will eventually try to escape or rebel, and then you have things like civil wars, etc. It is the reason why even authoritarian rulers don't completely strip all freedoms away from their subjects...and they tend to start losing control when they do (Kirkwall).

The circle mages still had quite a bit of comfort, food, shelter, education on par with the nobility, etc... They were much better off on the face of it than Dalish, or poor peasants and refugees who were just struggling to survive. It's one reason why Fenris had no sympathy for Anders in DA2.

 

Well, good luck for them with proper security measures and system, their chances of success are slim in that case we speak about tiny minority vs majority.Kirkwall was an example of unsuited and unprepared to their job templars (Thrask and his company) trying to enforce order while being subjugated to ineffective chantry polices that granted mages enough freedom to wreck havock and act in tune with their corruption and by that limited templars control over mages. 

 

 

[Sah291]

Well, good luck for them with proper security measures and system, their chances of success are slim in that case we speak about tiny minority vs majority.Kirkwall was an example of unsuited and unprepared to their job templars (Thrask and his company) trying to enforce order while being subjugated to ineffective chantry polices that granted mages enough freedom to wreck havock and act in tune with their corruption and by that limited templars control over mages.

The idea that they just didn't lock them up hard enough is what lead to the red templar counter rebellion, who not so ironically, wound up on the same side as the blood mages.

I'm saying maybe magic is a poor way to divide society in a world like Thedas. Maybe mages and non mages who don't believe in blood magic and world domination should...I dunno, be on the same side?

[straykat]

I'm saying maybe magic is a poor way to divide society in a world like Thedas. Maybe mages and non mages who don't believe in blood magic and world domination should...I dunno, be on the same side?

 

Nah, that's far too reasonable, isn't it?

[TheKomandorShepard]

The idea that they just didn't lock them up hard enough is what lead to the red templar counter rebellion, who not so ironically, wound up on the same side as the blood mages.

I'm saying maybe magic is a poor way to divide society in a world like Thedas. Maybe mages and non mages who don't believe in blood magic and world domination should...I dunno, be on the same side?

 

Not rly, Corypheus lead to it , templars would remain normal templars if not Corypheus.

 

It is very good way to divide society and it is differences between two are just too evident to not notice. Oh if only that was so easy , find me a blood mage detector, a device that reads thoughts, way to ensure every of those who don't belive won't reach ever for blood magic (Dorian father, Jowan and so goes on) or won't do anything bad , as well ensure that mages never will turn into abomnations then i think we will be good to go with that solution.

[straykat]

Not rly, Corypheus lead to it , templars would remain normal templars if not Corypheus.

 

It is very good way to divide society and it is differences between two are just too evident to not notice. Oh if only that was so easy , find me a blood mage detector, a device that reads thoughts, way to ensure every of those who don't belive won't reach ever for blood magic (Dorian father, Jowan and so goes on) or won't do anything bad , as well ensure that mages never will turn into abomnations then i think we will be good to go with that solution.

 

Stop being a wuss.

 

 

Seriously... that's my new approach with you. You're too alarmist and afraid of everything magic related. Same goes for some Templars in-game.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sah291:  The goal is to make it worthwhile for mages to govern their fellows.  

 

The answer lies with the Lucrosians.  If you allow the mages that could make magic a commodity to have power - then they will police any mage that undermines the ability to gain wealth.  

 

The Aequitarians would fall in line out of a sense of duty to mage-craft as a whole.  

 

The Loyalists should simply be absorbed into the Chantry and worked with the Templars. 

 

The Isolationists would have just chilled in the Towers. 

 

And they all would have crushed the Libertarians for disturbing the peace.  

 

Only mage players are united under the social justice stamp.  The mages of Thedas are varied and the governments of Thedas should have used that more intelligently.  Had the leaders of Southern Thedas simply worked behind the scenes to satisfy their mage populations the revolution would have collapsed from the inside.  

 

Even the Mage Collective has every reason to hate Blood Mages, Abominations and violent Apostates.  The less disruption these dissidents cause - the easier it is to work in the shadows.  In fact, I would not be at ALL surprised to find out that the Mage Collective is supported by the secular powers of southern Thedas. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

You're too alarmist and afraid of everything magic related. Same goes for some Templars in-game.

 

For a good reason, mages are responsible for blights and countless other disasters , taking extreme precautions and security measures here is no different than doing so in case of nuclear weapon.

[straykat]

For a good reason, mages are responsible for blights and countless other disasters , taking extreme precautions and security measures here is no different than doing so in case of nuclear weapon.

 

Magisters were responsible. Slavers and mass blood magic rituals. That's not magic in general. It's a specific event.

 

Mages are also responsible for combatting blights. It's the whole reason that the Circles were created... the Chantry thought they could do good work. They weren't like you.

 

David Gaider: The thing to remember as well is that the Circles were created to help Thedas as well. We had the Blights, and the first Circles were created shortly after the first Blight. The mages become vitally important when there's a Blight in order to combat the darkspawn. So it wasn't like the Chantry wanted to cripple the mages, they wanted them to have the power they needed to help humanity.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Magisters were responsible. Slavers and mass blood magic rituals. That's not magic in general. It's a specific event.

 

Mages are also responsible for combatting blights. It's the whole reason that the Circles were created... the Chantry thought they could do good work. They weren't like you.

 

David Gaider: The thing to remember as well is that the Circles were created to help Thedas as well. We had the Blights, and the first Circles were created shortly after the first Blight. The mages become vitally important when there's a Blight in order to combat the darkspawn. So it wasn't like the Chantry wanted to cripple the mages, they wanted them to have the power they needed to help humanity.

Magisters were mages and serve only as evidence of damage and destruction that mages can cause.

 

Well, nice mages helped to fight with fire mages have started in first place and wouldn't exist if mages were properly contained so my point stays. Only thing mages were useful for and wasn't started by them was Qunari invasion but then you can calculate damage they have done with blighs and other disasters weakening Thedas and that they prevent technological progress among humans...  

[Medhia_Nox]

It's almost a perfect bastardization of Warhammer Fantasy. 

Magic in that world is rightly feared - even by those who master it (and those who master it in that world almost always fall to it eventually).

 

Prior to the creation of the Universities of Magic in Altdorf by the elven wizard Teclis - mages were hunted down and feared and many turned to Chaos to protect themselves. 

 

Let's not forget that mages are killed all over Thedas BEFORE they get to the Circles because of people who are afraid.  And before we consider this a primitive trait... I will point to the fearmongering in America leveled at certain groups deemed "dangerous".  It is a human trait to hate the "other" and - when that hate becomes too much - people act out in terrible ways.  There is no "modern" man... all men are monsters. 

 

It is, however, Bioware's fault to only give these situations passing mention... without exploring them in favor of magical tears and demon invasions. 

[straykat]

It's almost a perfect bastardization of Warhammer Fantasy. 

Magic in that world is rightly feared - even by those who master it (and those who master it in that world almost always fall to it eventually).

 

Prior to the creation of the Universities of Magic in Altdorf by the elven wizard Teclis - mages were hunted down and feared and many turned to Chaos to protect themselves. 

 

Let's not forget that mages are killed all over Thedas BEFORE they get to the Circles because of people who are afraid.  And before we consider this a primitive trait... I will point to the fearmongering in America leveled at certain groups deemed "dangerous".  It is a human trait to hate the "other" and - when that hate becomes too much - people act out in terrible ways.  There is not "modern" man... all men are monsters. 

 

It is, however, Bioware's fault to only give these situations passing mention... without exploring them in favor of magical tears and demon invasions. 

 

Rip Warhammer Fantasy. Chaos won.

 

They better not pull that crap here.

[Medhia_Nox]

@straykat:  Warhammer Fantasy lives on in here... *points to heart*

[Sah291]

Magisters were responsible. Slavers and mass blood magic rituals. That's not magic in general. It's a specific event.

Mages are also responsible for combatting blights. It's the whole reason that the Circles were created... the Chantry thought they could do good work. They weren't like you.

David Gaider: The thing to remember as well is that the Circles were created to help Thedas as well. We had the Blights, and the first Circles were created shortly after the first Blight. The mages become vitally important when there's a Blight in order to combat the darkspawn. So it wasn't like the Chantry wanted to cripple the mages, they wanted them to have the power they needed to help humanity.

That's a good point.

The cricles were oroginally a mage institution, and the Chantry was more or less ok with it. Same thing in Tevinter apparently, where they became more like universities.

So what happened? Why did the Templars become jailers/bodyguards and the mages trapped and oppressed by their own system?

I guess that while they were ok working with friendly segments of the Chantry, Templars and nobility, they never really got over their fear of the outside world and never attempted to integrate with the rest of society. They made their bed, in a sense.

[straykat]

That's a good point.

The cricles were originality a mage institution, and the Chantry was more or less ok with it. Same thing in Tevinter apparently, where they became more like universities.

So what happened? Why did the Templars become jailers/bodyguards and the mages trapped and oppressed by their own system?

I guess that while they were ok working with friendly segments of the Chantry, Templars and nobility, they never really got over their fear of the outside world and never attempted to integrate with the rest of society. They made their bed, in a sense.

 

I don't know what the reason was.. There isn't a defining event that gave them this excuse afaik. Like the Chantry, unfortunately, justifies it's treatment of elves because of the Dales, but I don't know if there's an equivalent for mages.

 

But since it is a sort of jailer type of job now, that just attracts the wrong type of people.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'm saying maybe magic is a poor way to divide society in a world like Thedas. Maybe mages and non mages who don't believe in blood magic and world domination should...I dunno, be on the same side?

Before Anders, Fiona, and Adrian came along they mostly were. The reason the Circles lasted so long was that a lot of mages liked the idea of being shut into a Tower where the lynch mobs couldn't get them, and enjoyed having three meals a day (that they didn't have to help harvest), a bed, and a quality education. That pro-mage and pro-templar is a dichotomy is exactly what the libertarians want you think, and is not really based in the reality of the setting.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Riverdaleswhiteflash: I am still angry that I didn't get to deal with Adrian.  

 

OR... even better... feed her to Vivienne.