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[Sah291]

Interesting theory.
 
 It makes sense, since blood is a vital part of our physical bodies, whereas the fade is the place our life force/souls go once our physical bodies are no longer of any use. Darkspawn are empty vessels with no soul - so, blight magic would be the only kind of magic the emissaries or the Archdemon could conjure, and that makes sense. Blood Magic should then cause a weakening between the soul, therefore leaving Blood Mages...soulless (no pun intended). If soulless, they should not be able to contact demons or spirits that reside in the fade, unless they sacrificed other mages still connected to Fade magic to bind that spirit. 
 
Titan Magic derives from raw lyrium and fade magic uses lyrium, but blood magic does not require lyrium (if I remember correctly) - so I feel that the Titan magic and Fade Magic would be more closely associated with one another.

Lyrium is interesting, because that is another thing the lore hasn't really explained yet... What exactly it is.

At first, it appears to be some kind of drug. So akin to mages taking psychedelics to increase their dreaming and connection to the fade. This fits with Templar addiction. Do mages get addicted too?? This is never addressed. Or if it is just the Templars, why? Do they use it differently?

But lyrium appears to be some kind of mineral. And it "sings". So maybe it works more like a crystal, and has a vibration that mages feel to help raise their own and enter the fade.

Then we find out it is "alive". Is that meant literally? As in....lyrium is an organism? Or metaphorically, or spiritually....as in lyrium has a soul? As in, the earth has a soul (this is why I'm thinking titans).

Blood mages don't need lyrium, but blood magic supposedly makes it harder to enter the fade (according to Solas). Red Templars take the red lyrium....which has even more devastating effects on them than the regular kind. It gave Meredith the ability to move statues with her mind.

[Sah291]

Before Anders, Fiona, and Adrian came along they mostly were. The reason the Circles lasted so long was that a lot of mages liked the idea of being shut into a Tower where the lynch mobs couldn't get them, and enjoyed having three meals a day (that they didn't have to help harvest), a bed, and a quality education. That pro-mage and pro-templar is a dichotomy is exactly what the libertarians want you think, and is not really based in the reality of the setting.

That mages were compliant in their own imprisonment, and that it was more or less voluntary on the part of mages as a group...and not all the Templar's or Chantry's fault is absolutely true.

The problem was that on an individual basis, it was not voluntary. Mages couldn't opt out and join society, and the fraternities that didn't want the circle were not allowed to leave and go their own way. It was all or nothing.

But yeah, it always made sense to me that you would end up having to fight both Orsino and Meredith in DA2, even when siding with the mages. Even though I know they just did that to have two boss fights.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sah291:  I don't think that's true.  

 

I think there's some very real evidence that what the mages experienced was far closer to military school than it was "prison". 

 

1)  It's obvious they lived in luxury.

2)  You don't educate slaves/prisoners unless you plan on letting them use it.

3)  Several mages indicate that there was plenty of freedom  Finn from Witch Hunter, the botanist travelling the wilderness unattended (I believe in Awakening), Wilhelm are a small handful.

 

Of course the conditions were worsening... some Circle were far worse than the Ferelden tower... prejudice and fear were becoming the norm among mundanes.  It was far from ideal and it needed to change. 

 

But let's be clear... Adrian forced the entire situation - she tricked the Seekers and the mages into conflict.

 

The Lucrosians, Loyalists and Isolationists wanted nothing to do with the madness.

 

And Wynn's son was an idiot and dragged the Aequatarians along with him.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That mages were compliant in their own imprisonment, and that it was more or less voluntary on the part of mages as a group...and not all the Templar's or Chantry's fault is absolutely true.

The problem was that on an individual basis, it was not voluntary. Mages couldn't opt out and join society, and the fraternities that didn't want the circle were not allowed to leave and go their own way. It was all or nothing.

But yeah, it always made sense to me that you would end up having to fight both Orsino and Meredith in DA2, even when siding with the mages. Even though I know they just did that to have two boss fights.

Well, yeah. The Circle isn't much good if it only restricts the mages who are willing. Not all of those who don't want it are dangerous, but obviously the dangerous ones aren't going to want it.

[Sah291]

@Medhia_Nox,
They did live in luxury, compared to most people, and they were indeed used for military purposes. So it isn't like there wasn't a vested interest in them. But apostasy was still outlawed, making any non circle mages criminals, and it's not as if individual mages had any choice in the matter... So to me, it is more about free agency as a person, and not how well they lived. Some slaves in Tevinter probably live really well and have really nice masters too...I'm pretty sure Dorian says as much.

I agree you can't "free" people against their will though. They didn't need to fight a war over it... They could have just agreed to let the groups who wanted to leave go their separate ways. Of course that would be too easy. But that is basically how the problem is resolved in DAI if you side with the mages and make Leliana divine. The rebels form their own system and Viv rebuilds the Chantry loyal circle. There's still tension between them, naturally, but at least they are living with their own choices.

[Kakistos_]

 

Corypheus constitute a world threat on his own.

In DAI he was dabbling with incredible dangerous form of magic that involved the blighted version of an Evanuris artifact,if he had succeeded then the Alexius future would have become a reality.

 

 

Corypheus did not threaten the world on his own. He had an army, corrupted a Dragon and was using a tool crafted by Elvhen Gods. If he had truly been alone he would have quickly ended up trapped in another Warden prison until someone figured out how to kill him. Corypheus is powerful, apparently the most powerful among the Darkspawn Magisters but not at all world threatening and not that much more powerful than other threats faced in the game. Alone he was first captured by Wardens, then killed by Hawk & friends with no casualties and again by the Inquisitor & friends with no casualties after his army and Dragon were taken away.

[Medhia_Nox]

We'll probably always disagree over apostasy. 

 

To me, allowing mages live unsupervised is the same as letting the mentally unstable alone to do as they will.

 

For many many years mentally unstable people will be good neighbors - but eventually, without assistance, they WILL crack.  

 

When a mage suffers severe mental stress - demons will seize the opportunity.  It isn't always the mages fault - but should an entire region suffer the creation of one abomination so a mage can live unsupervised?  I don't believe so. 

 

Concerning Corypheus... why must a mage be "world threatening" to make people take pause?  Good thing we don't follow that philosophy in real life... we'd have very empty prisons and very dangerous neighborhoods. 

[Kakistos_]

@Medhia_Nox,
They did live in luxury, compared to most people, and they were indeed used for military purposes. So it isn't like there wasn't a vested interest in them. But apostasy was still outlawed, making any non circle mages criminals, and it's not as if individual mages had any choice in the matter... So to me, it is more about free agency as a person, and not how well they lived. Some slaves in Tevinter probably live really well and have really nice masters too...I'm pretty sure Dorian says as much.

I agree you can't "free" people against their will though. They didn't need to fight a war over it... They could have just agreed to let the groups who wanted to leave go their separate ways. Of course that would be too easy. But that is basically how the problem is resolved in DAI if you side with the mages and make Leliana divine. The rebels form their own system and Viv rebuilds the Chantry loyal circle. There's still tension between them, naturally, but at least they are living with their own choices.

 

A gilded cage is still a cage. And this particular cage came with the occasional suicide, rape and beatings by Templars, tests that if you fail will kill you, the threat that if your not good enough you'll be made Tranquil, your children will be forcibly taken from you...

[Medhia_Nox]

@Kakistos_ :  Yes, and your answer would be "Let mages run free and if a village burns down because of an abomination... oh well, we'll deal with it then."  

 

Please don't ignore the fact that I deplore aspects of the Circles and want reforms.  

 

But for me:  "Circle Bad - Free Mage Good" is dangerous and ignorant. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@Kakistos_ :  Yes, and your answer would be "Let mages run free and if a village burns down because of an abomination... oh well, we'll deal with it then."  

 

Please don't ignore the fact that I deplore aspects of the Circles and want reforms.  

 

But for me:  "Circle Bad - Free Mage Good" is dangerous and ignorant. 

I think this actually sums up the position of a lot of pro-templars. Certainly it sums mine up pretty well.

[Sah291]

@Medhia_Nox,
That is fair, although I don't see the mages as a metaphor for mentally ill and the like, so maybe that is where we disagree. True enough there are some mages who might fit that category, but then again Templars too (Cullen's PTSD).

For a real world comparison, I tend to see mages as more a parallel for occultists, mystics, and mystery religions, who have a tradition of secrecy, for various reasons.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@Medhia_Nox,
That is fair, although I don't see the mages as a metaphor for mentally ill and the like, so maybe that is where we disagree. True enough there are some mages who might fit that category, but then again Templars too (Cullen's PTSD).

For a real world comparison, I tend to see mages as more a parallel for occultists, mystics, and mystery religions, who have a tradition of secrecy, for various reasons.

You're not going to be able to compare them to any one real-life group without oversimplifying. Certainly some of them can be compared to occultists and mystics. Solas, Abelas, and the maleficarum cabal the Mage Collective sends you to kill in the Brecilian forest come to mind and I'm sure I'm missing some.

 

But the comparison between mages and the mentally ill has some validity too. It's still not a perfect metaphor, however. A mentally ill person is unlikely to be able to kill seventy people before being captured or killed, the way Amelia Stannard did. Nor can they cause others to go into a berserk state by summoning mental illness and forcing it into another person. The best comparison to that would be someone with a ridiculously virulent physical illness... which is an analogy that doesn't capture the fact that mages can gain some level of control over their "affliction" and use it to do good.

[Secret Rare]

 

 

To me, allowing mages live unsupervised is the same as letting the mentally unstable alone to do as they will.

 

 

We are comparing mages with people that have a disease?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

We are comparing mages with people that have a disease?

 

There's parallels to be drawn.

[Secret Rare]

There's parallels to be drawn.

I'm curious what are these parallels?

What are the similitude between mages and people with  mental disease?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'm curious what are these parallels?

What are the similitude between mages and people with  mental disease?

Someone with mental disease can, through no moral failing of their own, be dangerous to other people. A mage who unwillingly goes abomination is in much the same situation, except far more dangerous.

[straykat]

What's the definition of unwilling though? The mages in DA2 were under threat of immediate death.. they were desperate and stressed and probably intentionally called upon help... hence the demons. While the mages Uldred was torturing were similar... but probably being pushed and coaxed with blood magic too.

 

Anders is another type of abomination, but that was sheer stupidity on his part.

 

How much of this stuff just happens out of the blue?

[Secret Rare]

Someone with mental disease can, through no moral failing of their own, be dangerous to other people. A mage who unwillingly goes abomination is in much the same situation, except far more dangerous.

That's a rather senseless logic.

Mentally diseased people are mentally diseased people while mages aren't abominations by default.

So what you're saying is that abominations are mentally unstable not mages and anyone can become an abomination.

[Sah291]

@Riverdaleswhiteflash, it's fine to make whatever comparisons you want, there are a lot of interesting parallels to make... I'm just explaining why I don't agree, because I see different ones.

I still don't think I would agree with mass institutionalization of the mentally ill though.

Forced quartintine for those afflicted with deadly contageous diseases? That's an interesting debate, but outside of mages with the blight, I don't really see it here. Plus anyone can get the blight.

[Secret Rare]

Magic is a natural part of the world and people should really stop to see it as a form of disease

[straykat]

Magic is a natural part of the world and people should really stop to see it as a form of disease

 

It may as well be.. The world might have been different without Solas/Veil/etc...

 

But as far as we're concerned, its natural. There's gotta be a better way to live with it.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Someone with mental disease can, through no moral failing of their own, be dangerous to other people. A mage who unwillingly goes abomination is in much the same situation, except far more dangerous.

Plus , like mages they are locked up because of being threat (as you noted mages are much greater) to society what comes from special circumstance concerning person that is mental illness/ability to wield magic.

[Secret Rare]

It may as well be.. The world might have been different without Solas/Veil/etc...

 

But as far as we're concerned, its natural. There's gotta be a better way to live with it.

What i saw around is a bizarre perspective that equated mages to sick people(magic to a form of mental disease) because of the whole demons affair when demons can tempt anyone mages and non mages.

[Fiskrens]

Someone with mental disease can, through no moral failing of their own, be dangerous to other people. A mage who unwillingly goes abomination is in much the same situation, except far more dangerous.

I prefer to continue this discussion here, where is more ...civilized than in that other thread .

Yes, there are similarities, but one must not forget that there are degrees of mental health and therefore danger to society. A society that locked up every person with some kind mental diagnose would be extremely inhuman. The same applies to magic: I don't agree to locking up every mage just because some have turned out to be dangerous.

Besides, there are signs for those who can see them, ie. professionals, to react and take measurements before things "blow up". No need to - and both highly immoral and in fact dangerous in itself as I see it - to lock people up that haven't actually done anything yet.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Besides, there are signs for those who can see them, ie. professionals,

Who are this professionals if i may ask?

From what i know  abominations cannot be identified unless they are on a killing rampage.

Nobody noticed the templars abominations both in DAI and in DA2

 

edit also i think that  there are no similarity since mages are not mental diseased people Lol