50 ответов в этой теме

[ColorsFade]

So far I've done it via onDeath of the monster carrying the item (journal: "You killed the orc chief and took his amulet") and via conversation with placeable "searching the bookcase you find the map you are looking for..." . I don't see why you couldn't do it via the onAcquire script as long as you put in a short delay before self destructing to make sure anything you want to do on acquiring the item happens.

 

Yeah, I like that. I'm going to have to give that a try. I'm working on a quest right now where I could use this, and this would be way more handy than dealing with an item you have to pick up. There's also a few places in the prologue where this would be really good. I may have to go back and tweak those conversations a bit. 

 

I like the "searching" a placeable idea a lot. 

 

Thanks kamal

[Tchos]

The pack animal idea sounds almost like Leomund's Secret Chest from 1st edition, which is an interesting idea with great flavour, but has serious limitations and drawbacks that no one would use if they had a bag of holding.

 

On the crafting topic, I would like a crafting interface like what was used in ToEE.

 

Kamal:

I actually prefer having the tangible object in the inventory, not just a journal entry saying I have it.  I just like having something I can move around and read the description of.  NWN2 doesn't suffer from the problem of inventory Tetris (that specifically refers to having to fit objects of different shapes and sizes into a grid, like what NWN1 has, not a system where all items are the same size and shape in terms of inventory slots), but I assume you just mean dealing with the inventory at all.

 

In BSoCC, for one quest item (the bounty head), I had it drop as normal, where the player could take it, but if the player didn't actually take it from the body, I had a contingency script that gave it to the player automatically upon leaving the area, destroying the original.  If the player was obstinate enough to try getting rid of it after that point, then I made the choice to simply act as if they still had it, because while the first situation could have been an accident, actually getting rid of a known quest item has almost no purpose but to try to break the game, and I don't write for that kind of player.

[Lance Botelle]

Hi Everybody,
 
I appreciate every post, and have been trying to consider a "system" that might work around many of these "problems" mentioned. From reading the posts, it does still seem like "inventory" control is one of the major hurdles with respect to:-
 
A ) Overall encumbrances. (i.e. The player keeps having to shift items among the group to keep from being encumbered.)
B )Finding/carrying specific items, be they "plot items" or "crafting items". (i.e. We don't want the player to potentially dump/sell a plot item for any reason.)
 
With respect to some of the other comments, I felt that I would still like to be able to "see" a plot item in my inventory, and have it add to encumbrance if necessary. However, I wholeheartedly agree that this can cause issues, and so I considered this as a potential idea .... feedback appreciated ...
 
This is the idea (not sure if it is possible or not, but I certainly like the idea if I or somebody else pulls it off) is to ... have a system similar to "Dragon Age"....
 
i.e. Have an inventory that has the following mechanics:-
 
A ) Has both an "individually equipped" section and "party equipment" section when opening the inventory.
B ) Encumbrance is based upon "equipment worn" (for the individual PC) and what "remains possible" across all the "party PCs" abilities.
C ) "Party Equipment" is stored and accessed via tab system for different item types: "Plot", "Crafting", "Armour", "Weapons", "Accessories", "Other", etal.
 
If this can be achieved, it would mean:-
 
A ) No more having to move items around the PCs manually, but maintains a "maximum" capacity (with any associated penalties for going over).
B )Allows immediate access to all "plot" or "crafting", etc items from any PC very easily.
 
Other concepts like "Capacity Boosters" should (hopefully) easily be able to be added. E.g. Buying a "Bag of Holding" or having a "Pack Mule" could increase the "party" maximum weight allowance before encumbrance.
 
Again, to stress ... this is NOT talking about changing D&D rules, but making the current NWN mechanics easier to play with.
 
E.g. Having a separate "Crafting Items" tab, should, theoretically, make it easier to keep track of crafting targets and goals.
 
Also, (just as a quick idea at this stage), one could enable or disable certain TABS (like the crafting items tab) if the party do not carry a "Crafting Bag" perhaps? (The idea needs more refining and reasoning than that of course, but you get the idea.)


 
Any thoughts?
 
Cheers,
Lance.

[Arkalezth]

A ) Has both an "individually equipped" section and "party equipment" section when opening the inventory

Weapons could be a potential issue in a shared inventory. Or more specifically, weapon switching. I might want a character, and only that character, to switch between two specific weapons depending on the situation. Even with the proper AI settings, this sounds more complicated to handle with a shared inventory.

Not sure if that "individually equipped" section would address this. DAO is different in this regard because you can equip each character with two sets of weapons there, and have them switch between those exclusively.

B ) Encumbrance is based upon "equipment worn" (for the individual PC) and what "remains possible" across all the "party PCs" abilities.

What happens when you reach the limit? Is the entire party encumbered? If I'm carrying so much weight that someone HAS to be encumbered, I prefer to assign a "pack mule" role to a single character and give him/her all the heavy items, allowing the rest of the party to move at normal speed. It may not be too realistic, but it's convenient gameplay-wise. Would such a thing be possible with your system?

[ColorsFade]

If it isn't broken... 

[ColorsFade]

I can't help myself this morning... I must chime in. 

 

i.e. Have an inventory that has the following mechanics:-
 
A ) Has both an "individually equipped" section and "party equipment" section when opening the inventory.
B ) Encumbrance is based upon "equipment worn" (for the individual PC) and what "remains possible" across all the "party PCs" abilities.
C ) "Party Equipment" is stored and accessed via tab system for different item types: "Plot", "Crafting", "Armour", "Weapons", "Accessories", "Other", etal.

 

None of those changes would make inventory management any better, and they would break current encumbrance mechanics. 

 

E.g. Having a separate "Crafting Items" tab, should, theoretically, make it easier to keep track of crafting targets and goals.
Any thoughts?

 

 

Now you're getting somewhere. That right there is why DAO inventory management is superior: because of categorization and separation (filtering). The ability to filter the contents of your pack by pressing a separate tab (armor, weapons, disposables, crafting components) - that is what is great about the DAO inventory management system.

 

If you could make filter tabs for NWN2 inventory, that would actually be an improvement. 

 

I'd love to be able to hit a tab and filter it to only crafting components. That would make crafting slightly easier. Same goes for managing the rest of the inventory. It would be nice to have a tab just for scrolls, one just for potions, etc. 

 

Sharing equipment between characters is no big deal. Most of the time when a character has an item, you don't want them to share it. So the only cost to inventory management is the initial time spent looking at the loot right after you get it, and deciding which character the item is best suited to. Should Neeshka get this dagger? Who is low on health potions? Who needs this amulet the most? Once that initial investment of time is spent, the item typically says on that character. So sharing items... I don't think that's a problem that needs to be solved. 

 

But filtering... that would be huge. 

[Tchos]

Like the others, I don't want a shared inventory like Dragon Age: Origins (and having played DA:O a great deal, I'm well familiar with it).  Not the least reason being the weapon-switching one.  But if you can make the character inventories categorise in the same way as the shops, that would be good.

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

Arkalezth: "What happens when you reach the limit? Is the entire party encumbered?"

That would be the idea. i.e. The "limit" would be based upon the entire party encumbrance limits added together. The idea being that any item is automatically assumed to being carried by someone who can. When one more item tips the balance over the top, the entire party would be "encumbered". It makes no difference as far as I can see if you assume to play/move to the slowest denominator. i.e. If one PC is encumbered, they get left behind if the pace is ignored. At the moment, the player has a kind of "cheat" in that they can shift gear off the PC they use to move around, knowing the encumbered PCs will eventually catch up or even jump on a transition. I know there are other side effects like that PC may be too far out of range for a sudden combat, but I'm not sure I would consider that a "good" mechanic.

ColorsFade: "None of those changes would make inventory management any better, and they would break current encumbrance mechanics."
 
(Referring to the encumbrance part only.) I'm not convinced that the encumbrance mechanics would be broken by using such a system, but just managed differently. (Although, I have not looked too closely at this querying stage.) E.g. I simply prefer the idea of being able to "see" all my "potions" in the party in one go, rather than click on each PC in turn. (However, see next.)
 
ColorsFade: "Sharing equipment between characters is no big deal. ... But filtering... that would be huge."
 
I agree that this is probably one of the bigger benefits, and I think it may be possible to incorporate a kind of "equipment list of items" for each category. (e.g. list of potions, list of scrolls, list of crafting equipment, list of weapons, list of armour, etc.)
 
I suppose the main difference is that I would probably prefer the "category list of items" to show the equipment of every PC in the party rather than just the selected one. Is either possible? I still do not know yet, but I may look into it.
 
Cheers,
Lance.
 
EDIT: Tchos: "Not the least reason being the weapon-switching one."

 

The system I have in mind would NOT include any weapon switching system.
 

[Tchos]

I'm not talking about a system.  I'm talking about me keeping the weapons and armour that I want one character to use in that character's inventory, where I can switch them without having to check through a list of all gear to make sure I have the right ones.

[Lance Botelle]

I'm not talking about a system.  I'm talking about me keeping the weapons and armour that I want one character to use in that character's inventory, where I can switch them without having to check through a list of all gear to make sure I have the right ones.

OK, I see what you mean.

In that case, maybe keep a "private" tab that keeps items in that tab away from the "party" inventory tabs? That way, you may be able to have the best of both worlds?

Cheers,
Lance.

[rjshae]

A "Recipe book" interface panel might make an interesting addition.

• Automatically add new recipes as they are found.
• Use iconic tabs for showing different types of crafting.
• Highlight recipes for which you have the ingredients and satisfy the prerequisites.

[Tchos]

In that case, maybe keep a "private" tab that keeps items in that tab away from the "party" inventory tabs? That way, you may be able to have the best of both worlds?

 

So in effect, we could still have separate inventories as usual, but would also have access to a shared inventory as an option?  That would be fine.  Though it sounds like that would mean anyone who doesn't want a shared inventory will miss out on the categorisation.

[Lance Botelle]

A "Recipe book" interface panel might make an interesting addition.

• Automatically add new recipes as they are found.
• Use iconic tabs for showing different types of crafting.
• Highlight recipes for which you have the ingredients and satisfy the prerequisites.

 
Hi rjshae,

Yes, I liked this kind of idea too, but it currently "conflicts" quite a bit with existing systems, and/or would require quite a bit more work. NOTE: Modern recipes (in my module) only require left clicking to do all the checks anyway. Having this notification "automated" is definitely a better solution, but one that I feel may be too involved to implement at this stage. EDIT: The "recipe" book is the approach I am considering in general anyway.
 

So in effect, we could still have separate inventories as usual, but would also have access to a shared inventory as an option?  That would be fine.  Though it sounds like that would mean anyone who doesn't want a shared inventory will miss out on the categorisation.

It would be more of a hybrid solution, in that all tabs (other than the private tabs) would relate to "categories" of items carried by the party as a whole. E.g. If you had a collection of five swords, you could have three in the fighters "private" tab (which would not show in the "weapons" tab, which all PCs in the party have access to). However, the caveat is that the "private" tabs would not be any one category ... and as far as I can see, would not be needed anyway if the category solution (for the party) otherwise works as considered.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Arkalezth]

I'd end up not sharing anyway. I can't help but thinking that any shared item other than gems and such is going to make the AI behave more stupidly.

Overencumbering a single character on purpose so the others can run is definitely cheesy, but you don't have to take advantage of it. Sometimes you just don't feel like wasting your time crawling back to the shop through an entire area (or two, or three).

Like Colors said, I don't see any of those ideas really adding anything to the game, except perhaps the tabs/filtering.

[andysks]

I have to say that I agree with Colors and Arkalezth. I like the game. This is the reason I started building a campaign. Because I actually liked the OC when I played it. Some things are useful, some are plain nonsense. Filtering inventory, good. Very good actually. But joined inventory, sorry not. I'm happy to sort my party's inventory every 5 encounters.

 

And as Arkalezth said before, I have no problem with some minor bad things the game has. Which game is perfect? Any change you might make will please 5 people and ****** some other 5 off. Do whatever you feel happy doing, but I have to tell you not all will like it. 

 

An example from your work is the health bars. I love seeing the "injured, near death" status as in every D&D RPG I have ever played. So when I tested your work I never used the health bars because I didn't like them. I know for a fact though that there are people who do. See? Some like some changes and some don't. Keep it simple and fun.

[Lance Botelle]

I'd end up not sharing anyway. <SNIP>

I don't understand this? What do you mean? Aren't you (by default) effectively "sharing" equipment with each PC in the party? (Apart from the fact that each PC has their own separate "panel").

However, maybe this would make more sense then .....

Have the "personal" tabs where all the normal items are stored for the PC, and then "party category collection" tabs for ease of finding/storage?

Cheers,
Lance.

EDIT: AndySks: "Filtering inventory, good. Very good actually. But joined inventory, sorry not. I'm happy to sort my party's inventory every 5 encounters."

 

Does how I explain it above make more sense? I could then allow an option to "switch encumbrance" from personal to shared, depending on ones preference. i.e. By default, each PC would be calculated according to what was in their "private" inventory and encumbered or not, or switching to "party encumbrance" would calculate encumbrance according to whether the party had shared the equipment evenly (ignoring equipped) or not.

The Problem: Here is the kind of thing I am trying to resolve .... The Main PC picks up some items (a key, a potion, some crafting items). Ideally, some crafting items are best suited to a thief, others to a mage or cleric. You have every class in your party, and so place items on PCs you think may need them. Later, you find something that may require an item that one PC can use that another is carrying, but which one was carrying it again? You may then need to search around for it, which is the factor that slows and prevents certain game mechanics from being easily played.

 

If there was an inventory button that categorised different items within the party (as a whole), then finding/referring to these items may be easier than the current system allows.

 

As I say, this is just very early thinking, but I do think there is a solution to be found, and that is why I make the post.

[ColorsFade]

 

Ideally, some crafting items are best suited to a thief, others to a mage or cleric. You have every class in your party, and so place items on PCs you think may need them. Later, you find something that may require an item that one PC can use that another is carrying, but which one. You may then need to search around for it, which is the factor that slows and prevents certain game mechanics from being easily played.

That's a really long way of saying it can be difficult to find something because you have to look through each character's inventory. 

 

Again, filtering is the answer, if you want to speed up the process. 

 

Humans can find things very quickly if filtering processes exist to narrow down search results. We're actually really good at it. 

 

But everything else you're proposing is a change that is unnecessary, and attempts to fix something that isn't broken. Shared loot and private tabs are completely unnecessary, as is overhauling the encumbrance mechanic. 

 

I don't know quite how other people play it, but I tend to organize my inventory when I'm storing items, so it is already easy to find things. The default UI has four "tabs" of inventory space. I tend to put crafting components and plot items on the 4th tab, spells on the 3rd tab, miscellaneous items on the 2nd tab and weapons/frequently used items on the first tab. I also tend to group items toward the bottom so that when my inventory gets new things from looting corpses and chests, it's easy to tell which items are new, since they are automatically at the top of the first tab of inventory items. This sort of self-organization is simple and easy to effect. Every few encounters I take a look at my 1st tab of inventory, move items to the appropriate companions, and then carry on. It takes only a few seconds to do this. 

 

Inventory management in NWN2 is not a broken system. I've seen far worse. 

 

If there was an inventory button that categorised different items within the party (as a whole), then finding/referring to these items may be easier than the current system allows.

 

 

And that's why I said, filtering. It's the only thing that would make the process of finding an item markedly quicker. But even then, the inventory is fine without it. Self-organization isn't difficult. 

 

[Arkalezth]

Have the "personal" tab where all the normal items are stored for the PC, and then "party category collection" tabs for ease of finding/storage?

What I mean is that I'd likely put most items in the "personal tabs" - i.e. as per default. Any equippable or consumable item in the "party tab" can potentially be used by the wrong character at the wrong time, unless the AI is off. AI-item usage is easier to manage if you have control over the items each character has access to.

Thus, while a "party inventory" may not be bad per se, I don't think I'd make use of it. YMMV.

[Lance Botelle]

Hi Again,

 

For the record, I don't think the inventory system is "broken" (as such), but I do find it cumbersome at times.

 

OK, I do understand that human organisation can and is currently used to arrange inventory items, but that "filtering" items could be potentially useful.

 

And all that should (in what I am trying to explain) remain exactly that, BUT with an in-built "party search" system (if you like), that categorises the search. i.e. What I am probably poorly trying to explain (due to my subtle change a few posts back from the original, which may have been missed), is that the system effectively remains unchanged with respect to encumbrance and inventory slots, but has an additional "party search system" where the player can pull items from the party inventory and place it into the PC inventory (currently open) instead ... without having to switch through various other PC inventory screens trying to find it.

 

Picture the inventory screen with "extra tabs" (situated somewhere else accessible), that opens item lists (possibly to the side) according to categories represented by each tab where the player can then drag said item from the list (if need be) onto the current PC inventory. This shared "tab list" would effectively be a "container" (like a recipe book)  for sorted items that the party carries, which is NOT accessible by the AI (so no problems with shared there), but is accessible via code when it comes to things like crafting checks. (NOTE: I know the modern recipes do work in a similar manner with respect to checking items in the party, but this would be a convenient way of checking other styles of crafting too.)

 

As another example (showing the differences): I like the idea of any PC being able to pick up an item (like a gem or crafting component) and it being placed inside the party "bag" for such items. Now, it can be considered that each PC might carry their own bag for such, or (for player ease), a single party bag is allocated in such a system. Bear in mind, that the latter (party bag) is what I originally considered, whereas, the former (each has their own bag) is what I am now proposing, but that this tab system would list all the gems (or whatever tab item was selected) from all bags of all PCs. Whether each system has benefits both from playing or performance, is up for debate.

 

I'm still juggling the idea at the moment, so don't assume the thing is set in stone, As I say, that's the point of this discussion.

 

Cheers,

Lance.

[ColorsFade]

If it were me designing this feature, I wouldn't move the items around or create special bags. I'd do it all through filtering and the GUI.

 

Example: you bring up the inventory screen, and there'd be several filter tabs (like DOA). Since each companion in NWN2 has their own inventory, unlike the shared DOA inventory, I'd have a checkbox that says something like "party inventory", and by default it would be unchecked. So the inventory you see in the filter screens would only be for the character you're currently controlling. This adds filtering to the current character, which would be an upgrade to the current system. 

 

Now, if the user checks the "Party Inventory" checkbox, the filters show matching inventory items for ALL party members. So if you're on the crafting tab, and you check that box, additional crafting items would show up if any companions are holding crafting items. In a simple listbox you could even provide a column to show which companion has the item, by putting the name of the companion next to the item. Although I'm not sure that would be necessary.

 

So, you're adventuring along and you encounter a troll. You know you have club that deals fire damage, but you don't know which companion has that club in their inventory. You pause the game and bring up your currently selected character, hit the "weapons" tab, and then check the "party inventory" box. All the weapons show up. You quickly see the club. You grab it and drag it over to your cleric and drop it on them. It goes in their inventory. Now you know it's in the cleric's inventory for certain, so open them and equip it. And you're ready to go. Faster than hunting through all the inventories if you didn't know where it was and weren't organized. 

 

In this manner, nothing about the default NWN2 inventory mechanics change. Items aren't swapped around, encumbrance isn't changed, etc. The only thing you're doing is providing another "view" of the inventory. In database speak, it would literally be a view on a table. 

 

This creates a facade (facade design pattern) over the standard inventory interface, without changing anything about how the inventory is managed. 

[Lance Botelle]

If it were me designing this feature, I wouldn't move the items around or create special bags. I'd do it all through filtering and the GUI.
 
Example: you bring up the inventory screen, and there'd be several filter tabs (like DOA). Since each companion in NWN2 has their own inventory, unlike the shared DOA inventory, I'd have a checkbox that says something like "party inventory", and by default it would be unchecked. So the inventory you see in the filter screens would only be for the character you're currently controlling. This adds filtering to the current character, which would be an upgrade to the current system.

Now, if the user checks the "Party Inventory" checkbox, the filters show matching inventory items for ALL party members. So if you're on the crafting tab, and you check that box, additional crafting items would show up if any companions are holding crafting items. In a simple listbox you could even provide a column to show which companion has the item, by putting the name of the companion next to the item. Although I'm not sure that would be necessary.

So, you're adventuring along and you encounter a troll. You know you have club that deals fire damage, but you don't know which companion has that club in their inventory. You pause the game and bring up your currently selected character, hit the "weapons" tab, and then check the "party inventory" box. All the weapons show up. You quickly see the club. You grab it and drag it over to your cleric and drop it on them. It goes in their inventory. Now you know it's in the cleric's inventory for certain, so open them and equip it. And you're ready to go. Faster than hunting through all the inventories if you didn't know where it was and weren't organized.

In this manner, nothing about the default NWN2 inventory mechanics change. Items aren't swapped around, encumbrance isn't changed, etc. The only thing you're doing is providing another "view" of the inventory. In database speak, it would literally be a view on a table.
 
This creates a facade (facade design pattern) over the standard inventory interface, without changing anything about how the inventory is managed.

That's the sort of thing I have in mind (on the second approach), but I am having a problem thinking about how to do it at the moment. Clicking between PC/Party has potential issues I reckon ... I am still trying to get my head around it all.

EDIT: Showing all items in the party would (as far as I can see) have to be managed in lists. (Moving an item in a list may need updating etc.)

EDIT 2: Of course, the cleric could be encumbered now after receiving the club ... but I guess that's what you meant.

Cheers,
Lance.

[Tchos]

Coming at the problem from a slightly different direction, I would find it easier to find items in my inventories if they were displayed as they are in shops -- as a list with the name of the item visible next to the icon, rather than an icon alone.  And it would be even easier if there were a text box at the top where you could type a few letters of the name of what you're looking for, and all items that match that partial string would be highlighted (or the rest dimmed).

[ColorsFade]

Coming at the problem from a slightly different direction, I would find it easier to items in my inventories if they were displayed as they are in shops -- as a list with the name of the item visible next to the icon, rather than an icon alone.  And it would be even easier if there were a text box at the top where you could type a few letters of the name of what you're looking for, and all items that match that partial string would be highlighted (or the rest dimmed).

 

I agree with this. I'd make that part of the view. Since we're talking about putting a view on the inventories, why not make it better. And that was why I was saying, you could add a column to that list and include the companion name whose inventory the item actually resides in. So the list would have three columns: 

 

Icon - Item Name - Companion Name

 

You wouldn't have to add the companion name, but it might be a nice touch. 

 

And yes, an auto-complete search box would be handy. 

[ColorsFade]

That's the sort of thing I have in mind (on the second approach), but I am having a problem thinking about how to do it at the moment. Clicking between PC/Party has potential issues I reckon ... I am still trying to get my head around it all.

EDIT: Showing all items in the party would (as far as I can see) have to be managed in lists. (Moving an item in a list may need updating etc.)
 

 

I don't have the experience you have with the XML GUI components Lance, but I do know they have lists. And the code to iterate through each companions inventory is pretty straight forward (I think we've all done something like that at one point or another, to find items and what not). The list is exactly the GUI element I'd choose for this. It would be ideal. And as Tchos said, if you do it like the shop inventory, then it's extra helpful. 

 

This is starting to sound like something I'd actually want to use.... 

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

As some of you may already be aware, my current inventory system does give item feedback when clicked upon already (or immediately if first picked up), as in the diagram below (which also shows the updated store GUI):-



I have also been trying to consider this from another angle and may simply update all "crafting code" to simply check for items and PC requirements when activated from any such item ... e.g. When combining essences, any PC can activate the item and select the essences to combine/divide, etc, and the code simply checks if there is a PC present that meets the requirements and assumes they did it (if not "unavailable"). i.e. Checks would be made like modern crafting recipes. (It would not matter which PC the player uses to activate any crafting routine, as long as somebody in the party qualifies to do it.) That would sort the crafting issue out anyway.

Tchos: " I would find it easier to find items in my inventories if they were displayed as they are in shops."
 
That's how I was going to do it originally (for party equipment and reference), but I'm not sure I have the skill to do it when considering "normal inventory activities".
 
All said, I still like the idea of being able to filter/search the party of PCs for certain items, like scrolls, potions, etc. via a list of items for a certain category of item selected via a tab. I will start to consider some specifics ... and if you guys have anything more to add regarding "specific design requirements" and ideas, please continue to add or refine those already mentioned.
 
I am still in the process of testing my module, and so I probably won't get much into this project until I have released this one. However, it does interest me, and some aspects may be considered for this module prior release, especially with respect to crafting stuff, as I really do need to streamline that procedure, because it's still my Main PC that does most of the "collecting" and I get rather frustrated trying to recall which PC I am meant to drop said items onto to do the crafting.
 
Cheers,
Lance.