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[German Soldier]

. Many people think that the Sun could have been a Great Primordial Dragon. Who knows? Maybe they split up into the 7 Old Gods?

These sound more like Naruto rather than dragon age

[myahele]

These sound more like Naruto rather than dragon age

Mythal supposedly created the moon too

[Heimdall]

Anyways, there's some truth to some legends and Mythal convinced Elgar'nan to spare the Sun. Many people think that the Sun could have been a Great Primordial Dragon. Who knows? Maybe they split up into the 7 Old Gods?

I'm not sure about there being one primordial dragon, but there's definitely something to the idea of dragons dominating primordial Thedas. In the Hissing Wastes there's reference to when the dwarves there first reached the surface. They're primary fear was of dragons, it's described as an ancient warning of some kind and it describes a dragon as part of an ancient dwarven crest. So, I wonder, is this the ancient source of the dwarven taboo of the surface? Did the Titans instill this avoidance of dragon ruled sky in the dwarves even before they encountered the elves?

[Lazarillo]

I think the Forgotten Ones are somewhere unaccessible.  I think the Elven Gods were sealed along with Arlathan in the Fade, the golden/black city.  I think he did this because they were blighted by or fighting the Forgotten ones and causing civil wars.  This sealed away the blight until the mages were lured there by the blighted elves. Or maybe the blight is the Elves blood mage used to awaken themselves.  

 

Just seems weird that the Old Gods would call to darkspawn to corrupt themselves.  I think the Old Gods are just uncorrupted Elven God's body with a small portion of their spirit.  

We know from Trespasser that the Veil was created by Fen'Harel to prevent the Evanuris from interacting with the physical world.  We know also from it being mentioned at a variety of points in all the games in the series that the Veil weakens in places that see significant death.  We know that the Taint basically kills 99% of the things it comes into contact with.  It's possible (and a part of my previously-mentioned theory) that the Evanuris had the Magisters unleash the Blights on the world with the specific intent of weakening the Veil to the point that they could break free.

 

As far as why the dragons call out to the Darkspawn, it could be that they are attempting to carry out the above-suggested will of the Evanuris.  But I just had a crazy stream-of-consciousness idea...maybe they are trying to stop that plan.  Consider Solas' suggestion that after the last Archdemon is defeated, the Darkspawn may give up on the Deep Roads and unleash themselves fully on the rest of Thedas.  Perhaps the Tevinter "old gods" are simply working to distract the Darkspawn as long as they can.  Of course, that doesn't explain why they'd go for the surface once they do make contact.

[Gervaise]

I can't remember all the Architect's conversations now but surely he just sought out the source of the "song", found the dragon and assumed it was a god.   He doesn't even remember who he is, so how would he know the dragon was Urthemiel?

 

The connection of the Evanuris to dragons is assumed from the ancient elven writing which accuses someone of the crime of assuming the form of the gods and their chosen and daring to fly in the shape of the divine.    Since dragons seem universally to be associated with godhood, it seems a pretty safe bet the traitor had assumed the form of a dragon, particularly since in was flying.   It would seem, though, that taking a dragon form wasn't confined just to the Evanuris themselves but also their favoured "chosen", presumably their high priests but may be just their favourite servants.

 

Humans were already in Thedas before the raising of the Veil and it would seem that Andruil even hunted them for sport, so they would be familiar with the idea of dragon gods ruling the skies, as would the dwarves.    It may well be that after the Evanuris were shut away the first bit of useful magic the old gods taught the humans tribes was how to call a spirit into a hold beast, the most powerful of which would be a dragon.    The likely identity of the source of the information would probably be Forgotten Ones since with the Creators out of the way, they could build their power base with the human tribes, the majority of elves refusing to listen to them for fear of the anger of the Creators against them.   This would seem to tie in with the rise of the Neromenians, the fact they thought their heroes were reborn as dragons and that in the version given in the Chant (probably based on an old human legend) when the Neromenians attacked the Planasene, the latter were advised by the Maker to anoint themselves and their fields with the waters of their sacred river, to "keep the dragons' children at bay". 

 

What I struggle with is connecting these dragons with the ones that are found under the earth by the darkspawn and rise as arch demons.   What caused them to go underground?   I hardly think that the Maker had anything to do with it.    The dragons that become arch demons seem far more likely to be connected in some way to the evanuris and went into hibernation/uthenera to await the return of their Master/other half.  

 

Something that also has me puzzled is the timeline concerning the assault on the Golden City and the start of the 1st Blight, which are said to occur in the same year.   I thought a Blight began when an archdemon was awakened, so it didn't seem to take long for the Magisters to find one.     I'd also like an explanation of how exactly broodmothers came to be.  We know they are meant to be the female representatives of each race who were dragged underground but why do they then appear to turn into insect like queens that produce eggs that hatch into lava?    That goes beyond simply getting tainted but suggests an actual transformation into another lifeform.  Also were the first dark spawn only Genlocks?    They didn't rise to the surface for at least fifteen years.    Plus where did the numbers come from to attack the dwarves in the first place?    Was this entirely down to the 7 Magisters, some of whom we must assume were female?   Yet the two we have met are still human looking, so why is it just the women who turn slug like?   It seems to me that what has been hinted at in both the Descent and Trespasser is that something else happened far further back, involving the Evanuris and that is what the elves sealed away and had been steadily growing in numbers ever since.   The Magisters weren't responsible for creating the problem; simply for blundering in and releasing it.

[ArcaneEsper]

Something that also has me puzzled is the timeline concerning the assault on the Golden City and the start of the 1st Blight, which are said to occur in the same year. I thought a Blight began when an archdemon was awakened, so it didn't seem to take long for the Magisters to find one. I'd also like an explanation of how exactly broodmothers came to be. We know they are meant to be the female representatives of each race who were dragged underground but why do they then appear to turn into insect like queens that produce eggs that hatch into lava? That goes beyond simply getting tainted but suggests an actual transformation into another lifeform. Also were the first dark spawn only Genlocks? They didn't rise to the surface for at least fifteen years. Plus where did the numbers come from to attack the dwarves in the first place? Was this entirely down to the 7 Magisters, some of whom we must assume were female? Yet the two we have met are still human looking, so why is it just the women who turn slug like? It seems to me that what has been hinted at in both the Descent and Trespasser is that something else happened far further back, involving the Evanuris and that is what the elves sealed away and had been steadily growing in numbers ever since. The Magisters weren't responsible for creating the problem; simply for blundering in and releasing it.

I've wondered about the timeline stuff myself. All accounts of the First Blight that we have suggest that everything went to hell at once. As though the second the Magisters were cast down an Archdemon rose and hordes of Darkspawn wreaked havoc on the Deep Roads and on the surface. It just doesn't make sense for there to have been all this chaos in such quick succession to the Magisters being cast down.

And it's nice to see that I'm not the only one who thinks the Magisters released as opposed to created the Blights.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I can't remember all the Architect's conversations now but surely he just sought out the source of the "song", found the dragon and assumed it was a god.   He doesn't even remember who he is, so how would he know the dragon was Urthemiel?

 

 

Lol He gained the informations from the GW Bregan about where  the old gods are and how to identify them,this theory of yours is water that dragon was Urhtemiel

[kann.nix9mm]

That still raises the question in how the GW know which Archdemon is which Old God.

[ArcaneEsper]

That still raises the question in how the GW know which Archdemon is which Old God.

On that subject all we know is that Andraste identified Dumat. The rest are a case of "The Wardens say so and we'll roll with it"

[Donquijote and 59 others]

That still raises the question in how the GW know which Archdemon is which Old God.

Is explained that seniors GW have the ability to hear their speeches(this is the calling their manner to communicate) so they know who they are,where they are,who is dead and who is not.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

On that subject all we know is that Andraste identified Dumat. The rest are a case of "The Wardens say so and we'll roll with it"

Dear gods(in your own words of the other thread)   senior GW can hear them they speak in their calling.

[kann.nix9mm]

Okay ... and where does it say so?

 

The only thing I know of is that a senior Warden is supposed to be able to understand them somewhat, according to Alistair.

 

Where do you get your more detailed information from? Where does it say a senior GW can identify an Archdemon?

 

Furthermore it is nowhere said that Andraste identified Dumat as the first. How could she? That happened years before her. Only the Chantry claims the first has been Dumat. I can be mistaken of course, if so please give a source.

[Kantr]

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Okay ... and where does it say so?

 

The only thing I know of is that a senior Warden is supposed to be able to understand them somewhat, according to Alistair.

 

Where do you get your more detailed information from? Where does it say a senior GW can identify an Archdemon?

 

 

Riordan is a senior warden he can hear and understand the old gods and the archdemons speech,in fact he did that he said that  in Redcliffe

"i'm certain they are going to Denerim i heard that from their boss"

Also in the darkspawn chronicles with an heavy tainted protagonist you can hear the voice of the old god who is giving detailed orders to your protagonist via the calling.

Corypheus when was locked did the same thing tainted the carta dwarves and gave them orders to capture Hawke and lead the champion to his prison.

The calling is a way to communicate that senior GW understand both Genevieve which was Duncan mentor and orlesian warden commander prior to Clarel and her brother had access to high level GW secrets that include all these things.

That's how GW identify the locations of the old gods they listen their voices,they even know where is the next one called the dragon of night in Orlais western approach.

The Architect simply stole this informations from a senior GW and unlike them he has no problem to reach the old gods prisons,in fact he did that! Lol

Always elves!

[Heimdall]

Okay ... and where does it say so?

The only thing I know of is that a senior Warden is supposed to be able to understand them somewhat, according to Alistair.

Where do you get your more detailed information from? Where does it say a senior GW can identify an Archdemon?

Furthermore it is nowhere said that Andraste identified Dumat as the first. How could she? That happened years before her. Only the Chantry claims the first has been Dumat. I can be mistaken of course, if so please give a source.

Actually, codex in the Fade indicate that the people of Tevinter identified the first Archdemon as Dumat front statues in their temples. The identification of the Archdemons with the Old Gods predates Andraste.

[Gervaise]

Okay, I didn't read the Calling, so if all this information is in there, then I accept that the identification is made by the Grey Wardens.   In game, all we ever had was hearing and seeing the archdemon in our sleep, but not coherent words.    I don't think that Riorden heard the arch demon say "we're off to Denerim" since the arch demon wouldn't have a clue what these modern cities are called and it wouldn't mean anything to the darkspawn anyway.   What he detected was the "call" of the arch demon off in the direction of Denerim.    When the arch demon was underground it was meant to attract the darkspawn by its "song"  and I presume that continues after it is released from its prison.    May be the song contains its name but I must admit I always thought it was more a song without words.

 

The odd thing, you see, is that if the arch demons are the old gods, then for some reason they stopped talking to their followers the moment the Magisters invaded the Golden/Black City; in fact I understood that they had stopped doing so before that.    So it may be that the chief aim had been achieved and thus there was no need to continue enticing their followers.   That being the case, why didn't they stop singing too?     If the aim was to invade the city and overthrow the Maker, they must have known through their own Fade dreams that the plan had gone wrong.   If the aim was to lead the races to their doom by releasing the Blight, then they would be aware that had been achieved as well.    The Chantry make out that the Magisters and their darkspawn followers sought out the arch demons out of revenge for what they suffered but I wonder if the arch demons didn't carry on calling because they wanted to be released.   It wasn't the darkspawn coming into contact with them that tainted them because they were tainted already; all it did was wake them up.    

 

Do the Wardens categorically know that the two remaining old gods aren't already tainted?  There are two things that we know positively give off a sort of song, lyrium and red lyrium.   Red lyrium is tainted with the Blight, so it could be that the old god is already tainted by red lyrium, which is why it continues to give off a song which both attracts and sends its followers into a frenzy. 

[robertthebard]

No, it's not official.

[kann.nix9mm]

Actually, codex in the Fade indicate that the people of Tevinter identified the first Archdemon as Dumat front statues in their temples. The identification of the Archdemons with the Old Gods predates Andraste.

 

My question was to Esper but thank you. However, it still doesn't answer the question in freaking HOW all Archdemons have been 'identified' ...

[Lazarillo]

My question was to Esper but thank you. However, it still doesn't answer the question in freaking HOW all Archdemons have been 'identified' ...

Even if the Gray Wardens can't tell from the "song", they know where each Archdemon is, IIRC.  So presumably all they have to do is find which giant hole is empty and do the math.

[kann.nix9mm]

 

...

 

 

Cutting your stuff short: Senior GW can hear and understand somewhat the Archdemon ... nice. I didn't question that.

 

But! I asked you for your sources where(!!) it was described that a senior GW identifies what name belongs to what Archdemon.

[kann.nix9mm]

Even if the Gray Wardens can't tell from the "song", they know where each Archdemon is, IIRC.  So presumably all they have to do is find which giant hole is empty and do the math.

 

Nice answer ... which doesn't answer the asked question. I ask again: HOW(!!!) do the idiots know which Old Gods name belongs to which Archdemon? How do they know Dumat was the first and not Zazakiel or whatever? Or how did they know which name belonged to the second third etc. Archdemon ...

[Lazarillo]

Nice answer ... which doesn't answer the asked question. I ask again: HOW(!!!) do the idiots know which Old Gods name belongs to which Archdemon? How do they know Dumat was the first and not Zazakiel or whatever? Or how did they know which name belonged to the second third etc. Archdemon ...

I guess my point is that, presumably, they have records of where each one got put back in the olden days.  Though I suppose you can then say "well then how did they get those records", and I'd have to say "rrrI rrron't rrrow, Rrraggy." on that front, I admit.  Or at least, I don't have any answers that aren't also just another wild theory.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Nice answer ... which doesn't answer the asked question. I ask again: HOW(!!!) do the idiots know which Old Gods name belongs to which Archdemon? 

They recognize which archdemon is which old god because not only they hear what they say(maybe even their own names) from them but they also know how they looks like physically because old tevinter has statues of each old god obtained by the dremares-priests of the old gods the archons understood now?

Andhoral

Spoiler

caricare immagini

doesn't have the same aspect of

Urthemiel 

Spoiler

Dumat doesn't have the same aspect of Razikale

Lusacan isn't Toth

each of them has it's own features that can be identified even when they are archdemons

More clear than this..

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Nice answer ... which doesn't answer the asked question. I ask again: HOW(!!!) do the idiots know which Old Gods name belongs to which Archdemon? How do they know Dumat was the first and not Zazakiel or whatever? Or how did they know which name belonged to the second third etc. Archdemon ...

understood now that they looks different eh?

These aren't high dragons Lol

Lol If i'm killing Dumat i know that it is Dumat and not Urthemiel

[Heimdall]

My question was to Esper but thank you. However, it still doesn't answer the question in freaking HOW all Archdemons have been 'identified' ...

Presumably the same way. It stands to reason that all the Archdemons could be identified by old depictions of the Old Gods if Dumat could.