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Am i the only one who has a problem with males in this Franchise?


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#226
Vanilka

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I guess at least most of them have bad-ass moments as well as their "loser" moments.

 

In terms of Cullen I think most badass thing Cullen did was standing up to Meredith at end of DA2: "You will have to go through me first". In case of Solas- I think he's quite badass in Trespasser DLC at least.

 

Alistair sacrifices his life for the Warden if the Dark Ritual is not performed, and if she's his lover he doesn't allow her to do it no matter what. He's the driving force at the beginning of the game and the one that gave us direction in the first place. He's the one who tries to set the PC straight if they're a disgrace. He's the one determined to stay and solve things, even if the PC is not. Alistair wants to fight darkspawn instead of being a king because that's an evil he can fight and defeat instead of trying to do that by doing paperwork. He stands against the whole order in DAI because he considers what they're doing morally and otherwise questionable, even for an order like the Wardens who are willing to do what it takes to stop the Blight. Etc.

 

Anders tirelessly fights for what he believes in and is willing to die for it. Injustice pisses him off like nothing else. He tries to fight a force that's so much bigger than him, yet doesn't back down. He talks back to people that could kill him with ease - like Meredith. He wants things to change and instead of waiting for it to happen, he decides to be the driving force behind that change. (Doesn't mean I agree with his methods, but still.)

 

Fenris might b♡tch a lot, but he abandoned his abuser, despite knowing no other life, which meant he had to fight off his lackeys for years, all alone, knowing next to nothing about how to live any sort of normal life, take care of himself, or how to make friends. For years he stood completely alone, fighting, constantly looking behind his back, and he managed. The lyrium markings give him constant pains, yet he never complains about it.

 

Zevran went against one of the most dangerous organisations there are in Thedas. Instead of hiding when they went back after him, he told the Dalish clan to reveal his location so that they don't get killed protecting him. When you meet him, he knows he's outnumbered, yet deals with you with his usual wit and charm. Plus, that knife throw in DAII is pretty darn cool.

 

Sten confronts you if he thinks your leadership sucks because he thinks somebody has to do something about the Blight. He's so determined to do the task he was recruited for that at times he seems to think about little else. He's one of the most disciplined characters I know from DA.

 

Nathaniel knocked out like four Wardens before he was captured at all and despite not wanting to become a Grey Warden at first, he's a Warden to his very core, ready to make the hard decisions. (I may disagree with some of them, but that doesn't change the fact he's decisive when it counts and willing to make sacrifices.) When he learnt of what happened to his father, he didn't sit around pouting but he decided he had to do something about it. He was mistaken but still took justice into his own hands, Nathaniel a former noble that could try and just send people instead, and when he faced the Warden, he faced them with pride and anger, even though he knew he was very likely to lose his life. In the end, he admits he was wrong about his father and about the Warden and not everybody is willing to do that.

 

Iron Bull sacrificed an eye to save Krem when he put himself between him and a... what did Krem say it was...? A flail? A nasty spiky thing. Iron Bull is terrified of magic, yet pulls himself through the Fade and faces a Fear demon with grace. His "ragtag group of misfits" shows how much he cares about people.

 

Blackwall did something horrible and he knows it and dedicates the rest of his life to making up for it, e.g. by training young villagers to defend themselves against bandits. It might not be enough, but he tries. He eventually faces his mistakes and accepts whatever punishment he deserves for what he did.

 

Dorian left comfort and riches at home partly because he has self-respect and partly because he feels that someone should do something about the impending doom and he feels that he's got to be that someone. He not only wants to do the right thing, but he also wants to change both Tevinter's bloody ways and the way Tevinter is perceived in the eyes of the rest of the world. Despite having no part in the evil that's been going on, he feels responsible and he feels responsible enough to participate in trying to fix it. He's not afraid to challenge the system and he's not afraid to become a pariah because of it. That all while being utterly fabulous.

 

Solas is the one that keeps the Inquisitor alive and shows them how to use the mark. He's the king of screw ups but at least he doesn't run away from them and actively works on fixing them. His task is more important to him than anything and anyone else - he wants to fix the world whatever the cost. (I hate it, but I've got to give him credit for being determined and for caring so much.) He petrifies a person with the smallest effort, without even looking back at them. Even if you have the Inquisitor tell him that you will stop him no matter what, he still saves them from dying.

 

Even if misguided, Cullen never stops fighting for what he thinks is right and for what he thinks means protecting people. He eventually starts questioning what the order was doing (Shame we don't get to see that when we side with mages.) and confronts the insane tyrant with a superweapon, that is Meredith. He gives the Inquisition all he's got, is honest with both himself and the Inquisitor about his screw ups, and is willing to die or go insane to make up for them and to get as far from that kind of life as possible. Yet he's also willing to listen to the Inquisitor and put the Inquisition above his own wishes and well-being and what he thinks is best if that means that's what is best for the organisation and its war effort. Most of the time you walk in on him working, supervising and organising.

 

Oghren fights a bunch of darkspawn like nobody's business and in the middle grins and waves at you like he's on a fun family trip. Enough said.

 

Etc.

 

None of them is flawless, of course.

 

For me, it's about the moments as well as their overall deeds and personalities. I must say I greatly enjoy how multilayered DA men and women are and I agree, they definitely have their badass moments as well as their weak moments. Deciding whether this or that character is a loser or not is not all that simple and it's definitely not a matter of one or two things they might do under specific circumstances. That's a great thing to behold.


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#227
abaris

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For me, it's about the moments as well as their overall deeds and personalities. I must say I greatly enjoy how multilayered DA men and women are and I agree, they definitely have their badass moments as well as their weak moments. Deciding whether this or that character is a loser or not is not all that simple and it's definitely not a matter of one or two things they might do under specific circumstances. That's a great thing to behold.

 

That's the major positive in all Bioware games. They create characters and dialogues like no other company. For me, even if I don't like certain gameplay elements, that's the major redeeming factor that still makes me buy their games. I always get the feeling of diving into a world with real persons.


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#228
Donquijote and 59 others

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@Vanilka

 

 Note all this DAO characters are heavily dependent on the warden

 

 
-Alistair blindly follow the warden for the whole journey never once take a decision and even when it comes to his own life even if he despise the warden(-100) he would still sacrifice himself.The ending is called Warden commander afterall,in which the warden ordered and Alistair obeyed. 
I can interprete the whole thing as Alistair being the puppet of the warden which in fact he is.
He is an eternal puppet,you can convince him to die against the archdemon,to do the DR,you can manipulate him in every way the only time in which he cannot be persuaded   is when you decide to put hatred aside for practicality.
Not to mention his whole drunkard state.
 
-Zevran  is a desperate assassin who did the greatest mistake to kill one of his friends for no reason,Ignacio remember to him how much the crows think of him.
If you believe that the elf is at the same level of the other crows in Antiva and of the organization you are mistaken since in banter he said that among the crows he isn't so special like the masters assassins.
 
-Oghren is good at fighting but sadly it's a disaster in everything else,without teh warden to boost his morale he don't have a great epilogue.
 
-Sten live under the informal fallacy denominated No true Scotsman,that alone turn him into a loser because his entire system of life is wrong .
 
DAII
-Anders is an abomination who twisted a spirit of justice and a terrorist ,whatever phantomatic merit you think he has it is completely overshadowed by his own actions
 
 
all the others you mentioned aren't in my list.


#229
Vanilka

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@Vanilka

 

 Note all this DAO characters are heavily dependent on the warden

 

 
-Alistair blindly follow the warden for the whole journey never once take a decision and even when it comes to his own life even if he despise the warden(-100) he would still sacrifice himself.The ending is called Warden commander afterall,in which the warden ordered and Alistair obeyed. 
I can interprete the whole thing as Alistair being the puppet of the warden which in fact he is.
He is an eternal puppet,you can convince him to die against the archdemon,to do the DR,you can manipulate him in every way the only time in which he cannot be persuaded   is when you decide to put hatred aside for practicality.
Not to mention his whole drunkard state.
 
-Zevran  is a desperate assassin who did the greatest mistake to kill one of his friends for no reason,Ignacio remember to him how much the crows think of him.
If you believe that the elf is at the same level of the other crows in Antiva and of the organization you are mistaken since in banter he said that among the crows he isn't so special like the masters assassins.
 
-Oghren is good at fighting but sadly it's a disaster in everything else,without teh warden to boost his morale he don't have a great epilogue.
 
-Sten live under the informal fallacy denominated No true Scotsman,that alone turn him into a loser because his entire system of life is wrong .
 
DAII
-Anders is an abomination who twisted a spirit of justice and a terrorist ,whatever phantomatic merit you think he has it is completely overshadowed by his own actions
 
 
all the others you mentioned aren't in my list.

 

 

I disagree. And you're not any sort of authority to decide this. I think we've already agreed we, in fact, can have different points of view. Some of those things you have mentioned? They don't even exist in my playthroughs. Just because they have potential to exist doesn't make the characters any less interesting or strong. Or could you hack and slash through hordes of darkspawn and bandits and persevere, mentally and physically, until the end? Because Alistair and all the others can and in many stories they do. Does that mean you're a pathetic excuse for a man? Does the fact you might have needed help at some point in your life make you a pathetic excuse for a man? Why do you ever only focus on the negatives? (Sometimes negatives that aren't even there.) Why do you feel the need to dismiss everything good about a character because they happen to also have some negative traits and because they make mistakes like any human being would? (Sure, you can interpret Alistair as "being the puppet of the Warden" for sacrificing himself, or you could see him as a man that does his goddamn duty, who sees saving the world as more important than whatever quarrel he might have with the Warden, because he's a true soldier and honourable warrior that's not afraid to lay his life for Ferelden and the rest of the world and even a person he hated, saving the Warden from having to. Or, sure, you could just diminish everything he does as not good enough all the bloody time.) I could literally dismantle every character this way. But people are more than the career position that they achieve and they're more than their mistakes. I just gave my point of view on why I think those characters are great, despite their shortcomings, and why I view them as strong people. Because none of them had it easy. The fact you have impossibly high standards for them and don't find even the slightest mistake of theirs acceptable is, frankly, not my problem, nor is it theirs. Also, not everything revolves around you - I was talking about BioWare men in general and what I find awesome about them because I wanted to and I saw no reason to restrict myself. I wasn't even talking to you.

 

And with Zevran, I am not "mistaken" as I have never argued such a thing in the first place.

 

The thing with the "dependency" is nothing more than your theory and something you're suspiciously eager to see just about everywhere, regardless of whether it is truly there and regardless of the fact it can't be proven. 



#230
Donquijote and 59 others

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or you could see him as a man that does his goddamn duty, who sees saving the world as more important than whatever quarrel he might have with the Warden

This part don't work for Loghain



#231
Vanilka

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This part don't work for Loghain

 

And? Morrigan doesn't help you in the final battle, either, if you refuse to do the Dark Ritual. Every single companion has some buttons you can push.



#232
Shechinah

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-Zevran  is a desperate assassin who did the greatest mistake to kill one of his friends for no reason,

 

All other things in your post aside, Zevran and Taliesin thought Rinna had betrayed them hence why they killed her. That is a reason.
 


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#233
Hanako Ikezawa

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And? Morrigan doesn't help you in the final battle, either, if you refuse to do the Dark Ritual. Every single companion has some buttons you can push.

Dog doesn't. He will stay with you until the very end no matter what. 


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#234
Donquijote and 59 others

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All other things in your post aside, Zevran and Taliesin thought Rinna had betrayed them hence why they killed her. That is a reason.
 

Yea i know and they were both wrong,only difference is that Talisen didn't whined afterward.

 

And? Morrigan doesn't help you in the final battle, either, if you refuse to do the Dark Ritual. Every single companion has some buttons you can push.

Morrigan is selfish in her own nature she planned this from the start(to leave if the ritual is refused) her case is not like the one of Alistair because Alistair didn't planned anything his decision was dictated by his own weakness.
Not to mention that the witch wasn't a GW  that can be seen as a form of deception and/or betrayal rather than weakness,what she did was worse
than what Alistair did.


#235
Shechinah

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Yea i know and they were both wrong,

 

Then why did you say they did it for no reason?
 



#236
Donquijote and 59 others

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Then why did you say they did it for no reason?
 

No reason because their "reason" was false and wrong,so she was killed for nothing



#237
Vanilka

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Dog doesn't. He will stay with you until the very end no matter what.

 
Good point. Then again, you don't have much of an option to upset him in the first place (Not that I want them.) and you can't really disagree with him the way you disagree with your human/elven/dwarven/etc. companions because the dog cannot talk or have much of an opinion on how to do the Grey Wardening and other things right.
 
It's not every single one of them then, even though the dog seems to be a rare exception.
 

Morrigan is selfish in her own nature she planned this from the start(to leave if the ritual is refused) her case is not like the one of Alistair because Alistair didn't planned anything his decision was dictated by his own weakness.
Not to mention that the witch wasn't a GW  that can be seen as a form of deception and/or betrayal rather than weakness,what she did was worse
than what Alistair did.


Double standards and excuses.

 

I've never said Alistair walking away in that particular case was not a grave mistake made during an emotional outburst (That's  never happened in my game, but whatever.), but you're still cherry picking things here and dismissing others there when that suits you. There's nothing better or worse here. Walking out on you is still walking out on you, no matter who does it.



#238
Donquijote and 59 others

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 There's nothing better or worse here. Walking out on you is still walking out on you, no matter who does it.

Where i said it wasn't?
I merely stated that Morrigan had the little,little benefit of not being a GW her leaving is different than Alistair(the world don't need Morrigan for the archdemon but it need another GW) in the dynamics because she did it on purpose for selfishness while Alistair for weakness.
Same action different reasons both reasons are bad.


#239
Vanilka

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Where i said it wasn't?
I merely stated that Morrigan had the little,little benefit of not being a GW her leaving is different than Alistair(the world don't need Morrigan for the archdemon but it need another GW) in the dynamics because she did it on purpose for selfishness,while Alistair for weakness.
Same action different reasons.

 

 

How can you say "Where I said it wasn't?" and then proceed to say it again?

 

If it's "little, little benefit", then they suck equally at those particular moments of their respective stories.

 

I don't care about their reasons, since they're both bullshit reasons. (Well, they're important for them personally and I respect that, but they're insignificant in the grand scope of things.) Either you care about saving Ferelden or you don't.

 

The difference between you and me is that I see Loghain as an obstacle in the fight against the Blight, given his history of constantly getting underfoot and making things more complicated, and thus I don't see a reason to spare him and I don't see a reason why I shouldn't at least consider what Alistair has to say as a fellow Grey Warden. (Well, in those cases I don't have him duel Loghain, because otherwise he chops his head off right after winning and I don't have to deal with the annoyance myself, which is great.) So I don't find the thing with Loghain all that important myself as I, in fact, support getting rid of him wholeheartedly, and I fully admit that is my personal experience.

You could argue Morrigan leaves for more petty reasons, just because the Warden might be afraid that the Archdemon's soul might cause another Blight or something and we don't really know what it's going to do and Morrigan isn't very sharing. So you tell her you're not going to have her demon baby that might pose a threat to the world and she abandons you, like the Blight isn't still going. I don't care how much she is all about personal gain, it's still low. Or perhaps it is low exactly because of that reason. (While Alistair leaves because he has issues with sparing Loghain on the moral and personal level.) But you know what? I have no reason, nor do I want to crap on Morrigan just because she could potentially do that under specific circumstances that rarely occur in my games. She has other good moments and qualities.



#240
DuckSoup

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I disagree completely. All of them show strength at some point in one way or another.
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