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[Donquijote and 59 others]

Something I've noticed after nearly seven years on the franchise forums: male characters are criticized for showing emotions and acting on them, female characters are criticized for having independent opinions and/or independent sexual behaviour. So Alistair and Sebastian are accused of being 'whiny' because they react poorly to people killing their parental figures, while Morrigan gets called a b***** and Isabela a s***. We get far fewer people complaining that Merrill breaks down sobbing over Marethari or that Sten can't be converted to Andrastianism.  (Not that they don't get criticized for other things, but there are lots of complaints that seem specifically gendered.)

 those females characters change in between games and during the franchise(and Merril to me was right and determined) ,some males clearly remain the same over the years,the same attitude of whiners if the player don't' fulfill at their requests

[Donquijote and 59 others]

"Repetitive whining" is more than a strecth, to say the least. Sure, Anders spends a good majority of DA2 talking about his own issues. but why? Because it is something that is very important to him and, because of the presence of justice, it has become so much more than that. As for Oghren, yeah, his behavior is juvenile, but did you ever think about why he acts the way he does? To me, Oghren was obviously depressed after his wife left him, leaving him utterly broken. And if you think that couldn't happen to even the most "manly" of them, then you'd be wrong.

Many of them are built upon shy,goofy or childish demeanor that is not balanced by any other remarkable trait.

Isabela,Leliana,Morrigan,Cassandra,Aveline ecc all of them had their own male pretenders due to their allure and accomplished something on their own,what do the males accomplished in comparison?(unless they were Loghain of the stolen throne)

[Vanilka]

 

If they are Solas of course.

Why can't people simply understand that he is" the ultimate man" (well elf)

If only the others dudes could be a least 1% manly as Solas is,instead many of them  use the  PC  to cry about their own issues.

well ok i may save  CUllen at least he share a common passion with Solas

 

 

I romance Cullen in DAI who is my favourite DA love interest because of his personality, background, history with the franchise, character development through it, and the way he acts around the PC. (That includes his "crying" to the PC about "his issues".) He's one of my favourite DA characters. So is Alistair. I have never even remotely touched Solas. Not planning to, either. Great job jumping to conclusions just because I have an elf in the avatar and going on a tangent based on that assumption. That gives you and your thread tons of credibility.

 

Also, what do you actually want from BioWare men? Want them to be Gary Stues or something? They're written like human beings. That's why they're good. I, for one, take a man that "cries" to me about his "own issues" over what's supposed to be "the ultimate man" in a biased person's head any day. What the hell is "the ultimate/manly man" anyway?

 

I don't really think this thread is serious, though, so I'm not sure there's any point in having this discussion.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 

 

Also, what do you actually want from BioWare men? Want them to be Gary Stues or something? They're written like human beings. That's why they're good.

Being more gary stu just a little bit more can help,human beings don't cry like them look at the female npc i think they are overall more intreasting than the males npc

Ehi i didn't even focused on the avatar i just simply think Solas is the best because he is very independent from the PC,Cullen also but only in DAI in DAO cirlce magi origin he was gofy

[Vanilka]

Well, I dislike Stues and I like BioWare guys just fine the way they are. Human beings show emotions and that's why it's present in writing that wishes to be taken seriously. I'm not interested in emotionless automatons, either. The reason why I never want to romance Solas is exactly because he keeps his distance so much it makes him seem cold. He barely tells you anything about himself. While I think he's a great character and like him for that, ultimately he's an unappealing man and friend to me because I feel that he never tells me anything. Not that a man's value lies solely in how warm he is to other people, but that's it for me when I choose my favourites. I couldn't care less if that means he's "manly". To me that means he's not all that fun.

 

DAO Cullen is interesting exactly because he's this adorable, idealistic guy who rather sympathises with mages that gets completely broken throughout the course of the game and that royally screws up because of it, only to later beat himself over it and work so damn hard to make up for it. DAI Cullen would be so much less interesting without DAO Cullen. Here's the thing, people are allowed to have moments of weakness. In fiction, that's one of the coolest things you can do while writing a character. I like that Cullen is flawed and struggling, but still trying so hard, I like that he's so honest, and I like that he "cries" to the PC about "his issues". These traits aren't uncommon in the DA franchise with both men and women. And I consider it a good thing.

 

So let me rephrase: I love my "whiny" BioWare dudes.

[Vanilka]

"Repetitive whining" is more than a strecth, to say the least. Sure, Anders spends a good majority of DA2 talking about his own issues. but why? Because it is something that is very important to him and, because of the presence of justice, it has become so much more than that. As for Oghren, yeah, his behavior is juvenile, but did you ever think about why he acts the way he does? To me, Oghren was obviously depressed after his wife left him, leaving him utterly broken. And if you think that couldn't happen to even the most "manly" of them, then you'd be wrong.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's picked up on Oghren's behaviour. I've always thought his alcoholism is his way to deal with the crap life he had - losing his wife (basically getting abandoned by her and the whole house), his status, his honour, etc. When we meet him in DAO, he pretty much has nothing and everybody looks down upon him. I think Oghren is the texbook example of a person suffering in silence, not "whining" about "his issues" (Maybe he didn't even have anybody to "whine" to.), which hurts him a great deal in the process. In real life, people like that might consider suicide.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Well, I dislike Stues and I like BioWare guys just fine the way they are. Human beings show emotions and that's why it's present in writing that wishes to be taken seriously. I'm not interested in emotionless automatons, either. The reason why I never want to romance Solas is exactly because he keeps his distance so much it makes him seem cold. He barely tells you anything about himself. While I think he's a great character and like him for that, ultimately he's an unappealing man and friend to me because I feel that he never tells me anything. Not that a man's value lies solely in how warm he is to other people, but that's it for me when I choose my favourites. I couldn't care less if that means he's "manly". To me that means he's not all that fun.

 

DAO Cullen is interesting exactly because he's this adorable, idealistic guy who rather sympathises with mages that gets completely broken throughout the course of the game and that royally screws up because of it, only to later beat himself over it and work so damn hard to make up for it. DAI Cullen would be so much less interesting without DAO Cullen. Here's the thing, people are allowed to have moments of weakness. In fiction, that's one of the coolest things you can do while writing a character. I like that Cullen is flawed and struggling, but still trying so hard, I like that he's so honest, and I like that he "cries" to the PC about "his issues". These traits aren't uncommon in the DA franchise with both men and women. And I consider it a good thing.

 

So let me rephrase: I love my "whiny" BioWare dudes.

Ok i admit my ship is sinking i lost

[SomberXIII]

Dear Maker.

 

FTFY.

[Toasted Llama]

Uh, yeah. These are called "sidequests". They have them for male characters too.

-Oghren needs the warden to fix his family/dating issues

- Nathaniel needs the warden to fix his daddy/sister issues

- Alistair needs the warden to fix his family issues

- Anders needs Hawke to help him with his "I want to blow up a church" issues

 

I'm all for pointing out offensive tropes but I just don't see it. Sorry.

 

I'm trying to call out OP's one sided argument by showing the other side and people call my argument one sided....

 

 

 

Do you not realise I'm pointing out to the OP what you're telling me right now? That both male and female characters need help from the PC?

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 

 

 

 

 

Do you not realise I'm pointing out to the OP what you're telling me right now? That both male and female characters need help from the PC?

If you don't help the females they will do fine as well,if you don't help the males you will ruin their life that's the difference.

[Toasted Llama]

If you don't help the females they will do fine as well,if you don't help the males you will ruin their life that's the difference.

 

Yeah, no. That's just blatantly not true.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Yeah, no. That's just blatantly not true.

 names and surnames

Alistair 

Zevran

loghain

Oghren

Cullen

Iron Bull

Anders

if they are not supported by the PC in their critical moment their life is compromised forever.

[Toasted Llama]

 

 names and surnames

Alistair 

Zevran

loghain

Oghren

Cullen

Iron Bull

Anders

if they are not supported by the PC in their critical moment their life is compromised forever.

 

 

Same thing for Leliana, Morrigan, Wynne, Isabela, Merrill, Aveline, Josephine, Cassandra and Vivienne.

 

Also, nice to include Cullen on that list, while you called him one of the non-losers earlier in this thread. The hypocrisy is strong with this one.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Same thing for Leliana, Morrigan, Wynne, Isabela, Merrill, Aveline, Josephine, Cassandra and Vivienne.

 

Also, nice to include Cullen on that list, while you called him one of the non-losers earlier in this thread. The hypocrisy is strong with this one.

All those females you mentioned don't get their life ruined because of the absence support of the PC(you have to deliberately go psycho and kill some of them at best).

It is not hypocrisy it is only your lecture of it,if the dude is not supported by the Inquisitor he ruins his life in the epilogue

[straykat]

I think Oghren is fine with or without you at least.

 

I wouldn't take his drunken confessions too seriously. He'll forget what he said later.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I think Oghren is fine with or without you at least.

 

I wouldn't take his drunken confessions too seriously. He'll forget what he said later.

ok Oghren out of the list,i discovered that regardless of what the player do he still go with Felsi

[Toasted Llama]

 

All those females you mentioned don't get their life ruined because of the absence support of the PC(you have to deliberately go psycho and kill some of them at best).

It is not hypocrisy it is only your lecture of it,if the dude is not supported by the Inquisitor he ruins his life in the epilogue

 

 

How are the male character's lives ruined in the absence of the support of the PC? Why is killing female characters 'going psycho' but getting male characters killed or ruin their lives simply 'absence of support'?

 

If your statement were true (which it isn't) that Cullen ruins his life without the PC's support; then how is he not a loser by your standards? The hypocrisy is so blatant, you mention him and Solas being the only non-loser characters, yet now suddenly add him to the list of losers.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

How are the male character's lives ruined in the absence of the support of the PC? Why is killing female characters 'going psycho' but getting male characters killed or ruin their lives simply 'absence of support'?

 

If your statement were true (which it isn't) that Cullen ruins his life without the PC's support; then how is he not a loser by your standards? The hypocrisy is so blatant, you mention him and Solas being the only non-loser characters, yet now suddenly add him to the list of losers.

Killing characters deliberately is one thing while not helping them is another thing,If you dont help those male characters in their critical moments they ruin their own life

Cullen of DAI isn't a loser since he accomplished things on his own without the need of any PC since DAO which was his first appearance,however even him despite this pro cannot afford to not be heavily dependent on the PC for his destiny and that's however is not Cullen specific because it is simply the faith of most templars and i never said he was a loser.

[Vanilka]

There is literally no way to prove that the male characters wouldn't be totally fine without the help of the PC since we can't play the game that way. What's the point arguing it? I could just as easily say they would be perfectly fine, e.g. there would be nobody to argue with while dealing with Loghain and thus Alistair would never have a reason to go down the drunk path. Cullen really, really doesn't wish to do lyrium so it's very likely he would persevere without the help of the PC. Anders would blow up the Chantry regardless - Hawke pretty much has no impact there in the first place. Zevran is doing just fine on his run in DAII and DAI, so I see no reason that should change. Without the Warden, there would be no sword to try to fall on, either. Etc. Their supposed downfall and dependency on the PC is all baseless speculation. Speculation you could make about any of the female characters, as well, since we don't really have the option to see how they'd fare without the PC. Morrigan asks us for help in a life and death situation after all. Isabela asks us for help because she knows she's outnumbered. Merrill might've never fixed the mirror and who knows where she would be if Hawke didn't babysit her. Etc. Also speculations.

 

Otherwise, cool headcanons, I guess.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

@Vanilka

 

That's not speculation

- if i don't recruit Morrigan i can clearly saw that ten years later she is still the empress advisor.

-If i don't recruit Leliana she still become left hand of the divine

-if i send Isabela to the Arishok she still free herself on her own

-If i don't kill wynne deliberately she go to the meeting with the mages

pretty much this work with every female characters.

 

 

on the other hand with the males

 

 

-If i don't help Alistair in killing Loghain two years later i see him as a drunk

-if i don't help Zevran to appreciate me he try to engage a fight against me that lead to his death not to mention that i have to spare his life in the first place

A similar fate is shared by iron bull..

-Dear Anders is already lost regardless so i will concede that

-Unless i'm helping Loghain twice he is pretty much dead(then again i think he already did much)...

[Toasted Llama]

 

Killing characters deliberately is one thing while not helping them is another thing,If you dont help those male characters in their critical moments they ruin their own life

Cullen of DAI isn't a loser since he accomplished things on his own without the need of any PC since DAO which was his first appearance,however even him despite this pro cannot afford to not be heavily dependent on the PC for his destiny and that's however is not Cullen specific because it is simply the faith of most templars and i never said he was a loser.

 

 

Lmao ok, I guess defiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes and siding with the Templars in the mage tower quest is 'deliberately killing characters' now.

 

And since you won't give any examples, I'll do the leg work for you:

- If the Warden doesn't ('deliberately') kill Zevran: he either runs of to become the head of the crows OR he fights the Archdemon with you and THEN runs of to become the head of the Crows. (Pfoh! What a terrible life!)

- If Loghain gets recruited he either: kills the Archdemon (oh noez! He'll be remembered as the Grey Warden who ended the Fifth Blight! how terrible!) or becomes an important Warden for Ferelden if he survives (oh noez! life ruined!)

- Iron Bull either: becomes a Tal-Vashoth but remains close with his Chargers (oh noez! Frienship!) or remains loyal to the Qun and follows their orders, just as he always has (oh noez! His life remains mostly the same!)

- Anders always blows up the chantry, starting the mage rebellion, regardless of Hawke's actions.

 

The only character who 'ruins his own life' is Alistair if you decide to recruit Loghain.

[Vanilka]

You don't have to help Alistair with killing Loghain as he very obviously wants to kill him already. I even let Alistair duel Loghain and after he wins, he immediately lops Loghain's head off without any input from the Warden. (That's my worldstate anyway. I enjoy it.) If the Warden wasn't there, I assume the same thing would happen. There's no reason for me to believe it wouldn't. The only reason you get drunk Alistair is because you deliberately choose to go down that path in your game with your Warden. And, what, being either a Warden or a king is not good enough or something? Even if he sacrificed himself to kill the Archdemon, it's still an enormous achievement.

 

Killing Zevran, either during the first encounter or later, requires the presence of the Warden, so it's likely he would be fine. Again, "helping him to appreciate" the Warden requires the presence of the Warden. No Warden, the situations we see in the game don't happen, Zevran could live depending on the path he chooses for himself, which we don't see. It could be that Alistair would kill him. Or not.

 

Iron Bull is another case when the PC can mostly be an obstacle or make things worse. No PC, no obstacle.

 

I've never let Loghain live because I'm not interested in him, so I don't know or care. I'm leaving that to others and you.

 

Isabela is not just about the qunari. The way we recruit Isabela basically consists of her dragging us towards a large group that she knew she wouldn't handle on her own. It could be she would find somebody else if Hawke wasn't there. It could be that she wouldn't and Castillon would have her ass right there and then.

 

We can only guess. Just like with the men we can only guess. Kind of pointless since the protag is always there and every player builds their universe differently.

[Toasted Llama]

 

@Vanilka

 

That's not speculation

- if i don't recruit Morrigan i can clearly saw that ten years later she is still the empress advisor.

-If i don't recruit Leliana she still become left hand of the divine

-if i send Isabela to the Arishok she still free herself on her own

-If i don't kill wynne deliberately she go to the meeting with the mages

pretty much this work with every female characters.

 

 

on the other hand with the males

 

 

-If i don't help Alistair in killing Loghain two years later i see him as a drunk

-if i don't help Zevran to appreciate me he try to engage a fight against me that lead to his death not to mention that i have to spare his life in the first place

A similar fate is shared by iron bull..

-Dear Anders is already lost regardless so i will concede that

-Unless i'm helping Loghain twice he is pretty much dead(then again i think he already did much)...

 

 

.... If you don't help to appreciate ANYONE they will ALL fight you.

 

Also, how is "not recruiting" the same as "not helping", especially considering some characters are mandatory?

[Abyss108]

Without your influence Morrigan becomes a slave to her own mother and Leiliana turns into a psychopath. I don't class either of those things as being fine.

[straykat]

Without your influence Morrigan becomes a slave to her own mother and Leiliana turns into a psychopath. I don't class either of those things as being fine.

 

Morrigan is ultimately screwed.. unless you want to become a slave yourself eventually.