83 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

Whatever information you get from npcs is just too vague, and he is painted as a bad guy as soon as you enter Orzammar. Then there is the rumor that he killed his father, which is never truly refuted.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I learned that he had plans to improve the lives of the dwarves in Orzammar through ending their isolation, treating the Casteless as actual people, etc. Meanwhile I learned Harrowmont was going to keep things the way they were. So I decided to support Bhelen. 

[Qun00]

How do you come across that information in the game?

[Ghost Gal]

Turn left when you first arrive in Orzammar, toward the merchant's quarter, and talk to the merchants and casteless. After you get a pretty favorable view from them, go into the Diamond Quarter. By then, you'll hear some nobles talking about what a usurping scumbucket he is, but that shouldn't overshadow your Warden's "first impression" of him as a revolutionary out for the little people (and the nobles' corruption and self-promotion), and you should eventually run into one of the town criers announcing Bhelen's plan to marry a casteless.

 

It's what I did on my first playthrough when I needed a reason to support Bhelen without strickly meta-gaming, so I just had my character go to the location (left toward the commoners, not right toward the nobles) where she could hear a pretty favorable view of him before being tainted by the nobles' view.

[Solace]

Unless the warden is a dwarf, I can't see why the warden would really care who they support. Both are viable options for military support... Everything else is irrelevant.

[Qun00]

Unless the warden is a dwarf, I can't see why the warden would really care who they support. Both are viable options for military support... Everything else is irrelevant.

And yet s/he can only choose one.

Both are willing to help fight the Blight as long as you support their rise to the throne, so what would your criteria be?

[Mike3207]

How does one choose Loghain without metagaming?

 

You can rationalize anything you care to, even executing Alistair. It's a game after all.

 

Bhelen's willing to make the hard decisions to improve the lives of the dwarven people. You don't get that sense from Harrowmont.

[DomeWing333]

I played as a Casteless dwarf. He treats my sister well and my nephew would possibly inherit the throne. 

[Lazarillo]

Both are willing to help fight the Blight as long as you support their rise to the throne, so what would your criteria be?

While it does take a bit of meta-gaming, perhaps, to get to the line in the first place, if Zevran's in your party, he'll actually point out that Harrowmont's requests are those of someone's who is wishy-washy to a fault and concerned primarily with his public image, and might even go back on his word if it's not politically convenient.

[sylvanaerie]

The only time I had a warden who actually gave a crap about who ruled was my Dwarf commoner.  And it had more to do with Rica and little Endrin than Bhelen.  From her mind, all nobles were selfish bastards, caring only for themselves.  TBH, in my mind, Bhelen is no different.  He just ends up using the Casteless as his own personal army (see the events of DA2) to rid himself of his political rivals, fight his battles etc.  However, he does take care of Rica and his son and that was the tipping point for the only warden I felt good about leaving him on the throne with.

 

As for the cryers, they're just propaganda mongers, and it's impossible to pick out the truth from the baseless mudslinging.

 

Harrowmont is no angel either, but he's ill suited for Orzammar politics, too wishy washy and concerned with his image to do anything of lasting value.  At least under Bhelen's rule, things improve for the casteless (in a kind of a 'even ill winds blow some good' way) and trade is improved.  Of course, that latter is metagaming though one can see evidence Harrowmont is very 'traditional and isolationist' with a little bit of conversation.

[Qun00]

The only time I had a warden who actually gave a crap about who ruled was my Dwarf commoner.  And it had more to do with Rica and little Endrin than Bhelen.  From her mind, all nobles were selfish bastards, caring only for themselves.  TBH, in my mind, Bhelen is no different.  He just ends up using the Casteless as his own personal army (see the events of DA2) to rid himself of his political rivals, fight his battles etc.  However, he does take care of Rica and his son and that was the tipping point for the only warden I felt good about leaving him on the throne with.
 
As for the cryers, they're just propaganda mongers, and it's impossible to pick out the truth from the baseless mudslinging.
 
Harrowmont is no angel either, but he's ill suited for Orzammar politics, too wishy washy and concerned with his image to do anything of lasting value.  At least under Bhelen's rule, things improve for the casteless (in a kind of a 'even ill winds blow some good' way) and trade is improved.  Of course, that latter is metagaming though one can see evidence Harrowmont is very 'traditional and isolationist' with a little bit of conversation.

Again, I know that there is little reason to give a damn. But the Warden does have to choose one of them, based on some criteria, which should come from what was observed during the time spent in Orzammar.

[vertigomez]

Easy. Play a DC. Even ignoring the fact that Bhelen's the father of your nephew and the love of your sister's life, Harrowmont acts like a total freaking tool to casteless Wardens. There's a woman in Dust Town who sounds absolutely in awe because 'Prince Bhelen smiled at me!' and iirc at least one crier says that Bhelen plans on marrying a casteless woman (...Rica, obvs, but most Wardens won't know that).

But outside of that, it really depends on if your Dalish/Circle mage/etc. Warden cares that he might have murdered his brother. Does that matter to your character? Why or why not? Do they just want to get the dwarves out of their hair as quickly as possible? I mean, I don't ultimately care if Loghain was right and Cailan really wanted to hook up with Celene behind Anora's back. Likewise Bhelen being a shady bastard means next to nothing, because I'm either (1. directly indebted to the guy for rescuing my family from poverty or 2.) not a dwarf, so idgaf.

If you play your Warden as one with the common folk, have them head that way - to the tavern and Dust Town to see what teh poors have to say - instead of directly to the glitzy Diamond Quarter. Theeeen have your character dwell on why Harrowmont's so cool with this massive social and economic disparity while espousing honor and tradition and blah, blah.

[sylvanaerie]

Again, I know that there is little reason to give a damn. But the Warden does have to choose one of them, based on some criteria, which should come from what was observed during the time spent in Orzammar.

 

It doesn't help that your first impression of Orzammar is "closed off dwarven city" followed immediately by a bloody confrontation between warring noble factions.  

 

I left that moment with the feeling "no one here is going to give a damn about the darkspawn".  And no one does till you jump through flaming hoops for either of them like circus poodles.  

 

Speaking to the lieutenants doesn't help either since Harrowmont's man seems shifty and evasive, and Bhelen's left me feeling like I needed to take a shower.  With bleach.

[sniper_arrow]

Again, I know that there is little reason to give a damn. But the Warden does have to choose one of them, based on some criteria, which should come from what was observed during the time spent in Orzammar.

 

I think the problem is other than the biased POVs of the dwarves, we don't have information on who is best suited to rule Orzammar (unless I missed something). 

[Qun00]

I think the problem is other than the biased POVs of the dwarves, we don't have information on who is best suited to rule Orzammar (unless I missed something).

We also don't have that much information that makes either of them seem like the better ally.

[vertigomez]

We also don't have that much information that makes either of them seem like the better ally.

Well, Harrowmont says it's up to the Assembly whether you get your troops, while Bhelen guarantees them. But I think that's after you've already chosen one or the other, so...

[sniper_arrow]

We also don't have that much information that makes either of them seem like the better ally.

 

I see. I honestly expected Oghren to give us better insight about both rulers, but he was more on Branka. 

[Ash Wind]

I'm not sure it necessarily needs justification. Both will pledge their support for the fight against the blight if the Warden supports them. So, you have to go to other factors.

 

For me, Harrimont was wish-washy, tow-the-line weakling that Oz didn't need.

 

I will fully admit Bhelen comes across as a tyrant... however...

 

Spoiler

If you run into that poor girl with the starving baby as a direct result of the unforgiving and unmovable Caste system, it tells you Oz needs to change. You can find a note that shows that B is actually romancing a casteless woman and the final slides note how he removes some restrictions on the caste system.

I'll take a tyrannical reformist over a weak - status quo for the sake of status quo - professional politician every-time, and not feel the need to provide any justification.

[Qis]

Harrowmont is my choice in the very first playthrough as a HN simply because i see Bhelen supporters killing people on the street and someone on the street (forgot her name) says seek Harrowmont if want help.

[TEWR]

While it does take a bit of meta-gaming, perhaps, to get to the line in the first place, if Zevran's in your party, he'll actually point out that Harrowmont's requests are those of someone's who is wishy-washy to a fault and concerned primarily with his public image, and might even go back on his word if it's not politically convenient.

 

Zevran's comments are actually more along the lines of "Why should we meet with someone too scared to meet with us?"

 

Same logic actually applies to Bhelen. Because Bhelen refuses to meet with us as well because of possible assassination/other ****.

 

Honestly both are hacks and the writers made it painfully apparent that they really wanted to kiss Bhelen's ass. He's their Dwarven writer's pet. I'll never deny Harrowmont is the worse choice, but the writers did pull a lot of **** out of thin air and Flanderize him or even give Bhelen brownie points -- that were originally given to Harrowmont -- just in an attempt to make him seem the better choice.

 

For instance. If you put Harrowmont on the throne and talk to the merchants outside Orzammar's gates, you hear that trade is resuming. Yet the epilogue makes it seem like Harrowmont's a fervent isolationist.

[TEWR]

Harrowmont is my choice in the very first playthrough as a HN simply because i see Bhelen supporters killing people on the street and someone on the street (forgot her name) says seek Harrowmont if want help.

Nerav Helmi is who you're thinking about. 

[TEWR]

Well, Harrowmont says it's up to the Assembly whether you get your troops, while Bhelen guarantees them. But I think that's after you've already chosen one or the other, so...

 

to be fair, both end up providing the same amount of troops in the end due to political incompetence and nobles going in a pissing match against one another, and Bhelen isn't able to unite the army as well as he said he would -- per DAI and even Golems of Amgarrak/Awakening's epilogues.

[Inkvisiittori]

Zevran told me Harrowmont is a weak fool who needs others to fight his battles for him. I believed my friend and sided with Bhelen.

[vertigomez]

to be fair, both end up providing the same amount of troops in the end due to political incompetence and nobles going in a pissing match against one another, and Bhelen isn't able to unite the army as well as he said he would -- per DAI and even Golems of Amgarrak/Awakening's epilogues.

Naw, I just mean that if you take them at their word (as in, from your character's perspective and not metagaming) that could be enough reason to choose one over the other.

[vbibbi]

I see. I honestly expected Oghren to give us better insight about both rulers, but he was more on Branka. 

Yeah I really wish Oghren had had an opinion on it. I guess by the time we can recruit him we've already chosen which candidate we're siding with, but we do have the option of changing our mind when we finally have the crown. That would have been a great way to add some more depth to his mostly comic character.