83 réponses à ce sujet

[kimgoold]

I chose Bhelen because he was going to marry a casteless and improve the lot of the casteless in general and drag Orzammar into the future (kicking and screaming if necessary); Harrowmont while he seemed to be a honourable man was a born negotiator not leader he would cave to keep the nobles happy. Also Harrowmont seemed more concerned with maintaining the status quo than actually improving Orzammar.

 

This isn't metagaming as you overhear dwarven citizens talking, especially the Cryers in front of the Harrowmont Estate and the Royal Palace while you are in Orzammar.

[Ghost Gal]

I have to admit, my first instinct was to choose Harrowmont because in my first playthrough the very first pedestrian I asked about the two politicians was the noblewoman who explained how Bhelen pretty much killed his whole family (murdered his eldest brother and pinned it on his middle brother, which caused his father to die of grief if he didn't poison him himself) just to seize the thrown, while Harrowmont was granting the dying father's wish.

 

Even when you remove first playthrough first impressions, my first instinct for my non-DC Wardens is to go with Harrowmont because Bhelen's representative comes across as a sleazy crook who wants you to do shady things, while Harrowmont's representative comes across as very honorable and personable, and wants you to do seemingly more noble things. 

 

HOWEVER, pretty much all my "commoner" Wardens (city elf, mage elf, etc) switch over to Bhelen halfway through (if they didn't join him from the beginning, like the DC) once they learn more about Orzammar's oppressive system, and how Harrowmont is both extremely bigoted against casteless ("Orzammar's Alienage/Circle" my city and mage elves think when they see Dust Town) and wants to cater to greedy nobles by upholding the broken system, while Bhelen supports caseteless,  merchants, trade, and reforming Orzammar's crumbling social and economic structure.

 

The only "metagaming" I've ever done in Orzammar was try to make it so my City Elf believably chose Bhelen first instead of switching over to him after siding with Harrowmont, because I really hate backstabbing political games. However, without metagaming, I personally can't think how my City or Mage Elf would choose Bhelen first, nor how they can bring themselves to stick with Harrowmont after learning his bigotry against casteless and stagnant politics.

 

(My City Elf felt horrible about betraying Harrowmont for Bhelen, and I imagine felt extremely filthy and revolted with herself for a long time after, but felt it had to be done to help Orzammar's lower castes and caseteless, which contributed to her becoming world-weary and suicidally depressed in the years to follow DAO.)

[straykat]

I chose Harrowmont again, but my MO for this game was to be a trickster. So I played both sides until the very end. It was funny because they were both happy to see me back from Branka's mission. Never saw that happen before.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Human Noble: "Well, if he's the prince..."

Dwarf Commoner: "He's taking care of my sister" (I don't remember if Bhelen mentioned wanting to help the casteless in-game)

[Ghost Gal]

Dwarf Commoner: "He's taking care of my sister" (I don't remember if Bhelen mentioned wanting to help the casteless in-game)

 

The town crier announces his intention to marry a casteless woman.

 

While you could probably argue that the Warden might not find them reliable sources (since they tend to slander the opposing side), this does fit with Bhelen being a popular choice among the lower castes (especially merchants) for being willing to loosen the restrictive caste system to allow for more rights and commerce, while Harrowmont is the general favorite of the greedy, power-grabbing nobility because he's a traditionalist that will uphold the oppressive caste system that gives the greedy nobles all the power. Plus, Harrowmont exposing himself as a casteless bigot for the Jarvia quest.

[straykat]

The town crier announces his intention to marry a casteless woman.

 

While you could probably argue that the Warden might not find them reliable sources (since they tend to slander the opposing side), this does fit with Bhelen being a popular choice among the lower castes (especially merchants) for being willing to loosen the restrictive caste system to allow for more rights and commerce, while Harrowmont is the general favorite of the greedy, power-grabbing nobility because he's a traditionalist that will uphold the oppressive caste system that gives the greedy nobles all the power. Plus, Harrowmont exposing himself as a casteless bigot for the Jarvia quest.

 

How is a Harrowmont a bigot there?

 

He may very well be, but there is nothing in his demeanor that I recall. He even feels a bit of pity for Jarvia, while Bhelen doesn't.

 

I think Harrowmont's real problem is just being feeble. Not a noble.

 

Also, Bhelen's love for the casteless extends only so far. He just wants shock troops. It's practical, but he'll even use those casteless, if you save the Anvil. It isn't like he's some social revolutionary. Don't give him too much credit.

[Ghost Gal]

How is a Harrowmont a bigot there?

 

He may very well be, but there is nothing in his demeanor that I recall. He even feels a bit of pity for Jarvia, while Bhelen doesn't.

 

I think Harrowmont's real problem is just being feeble. Not a noble.

 

Also, Bhelen's love for the casteless extends only so far. He just wants shock troops. It's practical, but he'll even use those casteless, if you save the Anvil. It isn't like he's some social revolutionary. Don't give him too much credit.

 

You probably know more on this topic than I do, then.

 

I didn't explore Orzammar as thoroughly as I do other parts of the franchise; mainly because the entire "pick your poison" candidate for the throne gave me a massive headache, and made me curse every decision I ever made in my life that led up to that point. I just wanted to quickly find a reason to pick someone so I could stop caring and it could be over.

 

I just know that I was seriously changing my mind about who I was supporting since the lower castes seemed to really like Bhelen for increasing trade and loosening the caste system that stifled them, while the nobles liked Harrowmont for planning to uphold the traditions and caste system that, frankly, I held responsible for most of Orzammar's socioeconomic problems. Plus, I'd just heard that Bhelen planned on marrying a casteless woman.

 

I just know that after dealing with Jarvia for Harrowmont, he said something pretty nasty about their life choices (as if people legally forbidden from working or living by legitimate means choose to be criminals!), and when my City Elf chose the dialogue option expressing pity for them (the men, not Jarvia), his answer (which I can't remember since it's been over a year) angered me enough that I mentally switched over to Bhelen and basically stopped caring.

 

I also don't know much about the Anvil, since I never preserved the thing. I don't factor it in my decision to choose candidate because it's never around once they're crowned.

 

Either way though, the lower castes and casteless do better under Bhelen than Harrowmont, and that's pretty much all I have the emotional energy to care about.

 

EDIT: Either way though, the point of my post was that a non-Dwarf Commoner can learn that Bhelen intends to marry a casteless woman, which one could probably use to infer that he'd be better for the casteless, since talking to other people around Orzammar tends to reveal that Bhelen is seen as the better candidate by the lower castes (mainly merchants), so yeah. My point still stands.

[straykat]

That's fair. I pick both at different times, so I'm not really for one or the other. I just know Harrowmont isn't as dismissive as Bhelen is, when you say you offered Jarvia mercy.

 

I don't tend to save the Anvil either, but my point is, at the end of the day Bhelen's social changes only extend so far.

 

Harrowmont makes use of the Anvil too, but after crushing Bhelen's rebellion, he sees how bad it is and rules that no new souls shall be used for it. But other dwarves secretly start kidnapping elves and humans from the surface and make more Golems.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That's fair. I pick both at different times, so I'm not really for one or the other. I just know Harrowmont isn't as dismissive as Bhelen is, when you say you offered Jarvia mercy.

 

I don't tend to save the Anvil either, but my point is, at the end of the day Bhelen's social changes only extend so far.

 

Harrowmont makes use of the Anvil too, but after crushing Bhelen's rebellion, he sees how bad it is and rules that no new souls shall be used for it. But other dwarves secretly start kidnapping elves and humans from the surface and make more Golems.

I thought that what Harrowmont said was specifically that no more dwarven souls were to be used for the Anvil. It's not stated that Branka kidnapped humans and elves without his acquiescence, and it's even implied that she had it.

[Ghost Gal]

That's fair. I pick both at different times, so I'm not really for one or the other. I just know Harrowmont isn't as dismissive as Bhelen is, when you say you offered Jarvia mercy.

 

I don't tend to save the Anvil either, but my point is, at the end of the day Bhelen's social changes only extend so far.

 

Harrowmont makes use of the Anvil too, but after crushing Bhelen's rebellion, he sees how bad it is and rules that no new souls shall be used for it. But other dwarves secretly start kidnapping elves and humans from the surface and make more Golems.

 

Harrowmont may not be as dismissive as Bhelen about Jarvia, but I know he said something dismissive about her casteless men, and that was pretty much the final push I needed to jump ship.

 

I know Bhelen's social changes only extend so far, but they're still than Harrowmont's, which is both my point and my reason for supporting him. (Even though I know he's an *******. I just find his politics less repulsive than Harrowmont's, even though they both repulse me. I really wish we had a third, more balanced option, or at least the Dwarf Noble Warden could clear their name and take the throne as a potential balanced third option.)

 

Yeah, that's pretty much the reason I destroyed the Anvil. As long as it's around, someone will find some way to abuse it.

[straykat]

I thought that what Harrowmont said was specifically that no more dwarven souls were to be used for the Anvil. It's not stated that Branka kidnapped humans and elves without his acquiescence, and it's even implied that she had it.

 

I didn't say Branka did. It said other dwarves do that. Maybe Branka is involved or not. It doesn't say.

 

edit: Oh wait.. I see what you're saying.

 

That's an interesting point.

[straykat]

Harrowmont may not be as dismissive as Bhelen about Jarvia, but I know he said something dismissive about her casteless men, and that was pretty much the final push I needed to jump ship.

 

I know Bhelen's social changes only extend so far, but they're still than Harrowmont's, which is both my point and my reason for supporting him. (Even though I know he's an *******. I just find his politics less repulsive than Harrowmont's, even though they both repulse me. I really wish we had a third, more balanced option, or at least the Dwarf Noble Warden could clear their name and take the throne as a potential balanced third option.)

 

Yeah, that's pretty much the reason I destroyed the Anvil. As long as it's around, someone will find some way to abuse it.

 

I don't remember anything about him saying that. I just can't remember. I know Bhelen is a jerk about it though. Harrowmont pitied them in my playthrough.

 

There's just no right or wrong in any of this, I think. It's all over the place with those two.

[Sifr]

Harrowmont may not be as dismissive as Bhelen about Jarvia, but I know he said something dismissive about her casteless men, and that was pretty much the final push I needed to jump ship.

 

I know Bhelen's social changes only extend so far, but they're still than Harrowmont's, which is both my point and my reason for supporting him. (Even though I know he's an *******. I just find his politics less repulsive than Harrowmont's, even though they both repulse me. I really wish we had a third, more balanced option, or at least the Dwarf Noble Warden could clear their name and take the throne as a potential balanced third option.)

 

Yeah, that's pretty much the reason I destroyed the Anvil. As long as it's around, someone will find some way to abuse it.

 

Bhelen does offer to restore your standing in House Aeducan if you side with him. Doesn't he also imply that he's going to pull some strings to lift your exile and remove the charges of fratricide against you? I always figured that he had Trian's death listed officially as a "great unsolved mystery" afterwards, something the Assembly either didn't bother investigating, or seemed to always find something more important to discuss whenever it came up.

[straykat]

I still don't like Gavorn. Honestly... that's my main reason for being a little more on the Harrowmont side. lol

 

The entire fate of the dwarves lies on Vartag Gavorn.

 

I heard there was a way to side with Bhelen and manage to kill him, but I've never figured it out.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bhelen does offer to restore your standing in House Aeducan if you side with him. Doesn't he also imply that he's going to pull some strings to lift your exile and remove the charges of fratricide against you? I always figured that he had Trian's death listed officially as a "great unsolved mystery" afterwards, something the Assembly either didn't bother investigating, or seemed to always find something more important to discuss whenever it came up.

Judging by Vartag's attempt to plant forged evidence of Harrowmont's involvement in Trian's death in the Carta HQ if you defect to Bhelen, I'd say it's pinned on Harrowmont.

[Ghost Gal]

Bhelen does offer to restore your standing in House Aeducan if you side with him. Doesn't he also imply that he's going to pull some strings to lift your exile and remove the charges of fratricide against you? I always figured that he had Trian's death listed officially as a "great unsolved mystery" afterwards, something the Assembly either didn't bother investigating, or seemed to always find something more important to discuss whenever it came up.

 

Siding with the one who betrayed you, took everything from you, and basically destroyed your entire family (by murdering your older brother, pinning the crime on you so you got exiled to die in the Deep Roads, then either caused your father to die of grief or poisoned him himself) just for the "honor" of being restored to the House (which he got you kicked out of in the first place) but not being restored to your place in line for the throne (ahead of him) is not the same as exposing and killing the bastard, getting back your birthright, and being able to crown yourself.

 

That'd be like if Howe survived to the end of the Landsmeet and offered to restore your family's lands and titles to your family's name, but you don't actually get to rule Highever as the next Teyrn Cousland, and only if you support him as the new right hand to the new monarch and you don't marry them. You don't get revenge, you don't get your birthright back, you don't get the crown, and you actually have to exalt the man who destroyed your family and took everything from you in order to get that little scrap of goodwill back from him.

 

Can you imagine what a sh!t-hemmorage Cousland fans would throw if the game did that? Set it up so Howe was the bastard who destroyed your family and stole your birthright, and all game it seemed like eventually you could get revenge and go home, but then the game made it so you can't kill him and/or you can't gain back what he stole from you--or you could but the the only way to gain back your family's stolen lands/titles was to exalt the man who killed them and stole it in the first place?

 

No! That would never fly for a Human Noble playthrough, yet everyone expects that the Dwarf Noble should be just fine with supporting their traitorous younger brother and just "accept" that they'll never get back what was stolen from them?

 

Like I said: Orzammar has two subpar choices: Harrowmont or Bhelen. One is more popular than the other but doesn't have a strong claim since he's not from House Aeducan, while the other has a strong claim as the only surviving heir of House Aeducan but is less popular... because he's the only surviving heir. (Having his whole family killed to get there didn't endear him to the Assembly.) I already found it irritating that the game doesn't offer a non-DN a reasonable third option, but it became especially glaring when I played through Orzammar as a Dwarf Noble, and realized you're a reasonable third option. You have a stronger claim than both of them as Endrin's eldest surviving child, and the favorite for the throne before your disgrace.

 

There's no reason the writers couldn't have included an extra quest chain that gave you the option to clear your name (at least if you were framed for the murder), garner support from various dwarf nobles (much like how the Warden can go around garnering support from human nobles before the Landsmeet), and be able to use the Paragon's crown to crown yourself. (At least, if you did the quest chain beforehand and possibly did a successful persuasion check. If you didn't complete the quest to clear your name and didn't get support from various nobles before reaching Branka, then if you try to crown yourself the Assembly says, "Ah, no. Sit down." But if you did complete the necessary steps beforehand, and/or complete a persuasion check, the Assembly should be able to go with it.)

 

I mean, structurally DAO takes place in two kingdoms: Ferelden and Orzammar. The Human Noble is from the second most powerful family in Ferelden, and the Dwarf Noble is second in line for the throne (under your older brother) of Orzammar. The Human Noble can become king/queen of Ferelden at the end, so I see no reason why the Dwarf Noble can't become king/queen of Orzammar at the end. Human Noble can become King/Queen of Ferelden, Dwarf Noble can become King/Queen of Orzammar. Boom. Boom.

[straykat]

I don't think many Dwarf fans accept that either. That's why you barely see any support around here for Aeducan and Bhelen playthroughs. It's rare.

[Lezio]

My canon warden starts out helping harrowmont, then he visits the Lowtown, hears about how Casteless are treated by the so called highborn and most of the population, finds himself having to force a FATHER  to not renegate his daughter and her child just because of a mark and, in the end, how Bhelen has a different opinion than most..... well, he has a change of mind

 

My warden, human mage, actually becomes really REALLY sick with most underground dwarves after Orzammar, the only ones he actually goes away liking are the Casteless, most of the Legion's members and the warrior/smith caste (if nothing else because they are at least honest)

[GoldenGail3]

I don't think many Dwarf fans accept that either. That's why you barely see any support around here for Aeducan and Bhelen playthroughs. It's rare.

My Aeuducan playthrough - "Wtf, I ain't supporting some smuck who's weak minded and hates the Castless!"

Goes on to support Bhelen.

[straykat]

My Aeuducan playthrough - "Wtf, I ain't supporting some smuck who's weak minded and hates the Castless!"

Goes on to support Bhelen.

 

My Aeducan was a jerkoff tbh. I liked playing with those snooty lines in the beginning... where you make Gorim talk to people for you. It's terrible, but funny. That's my worst character of the bunch.

 

This way Bhelen is kind of unique for his family.

 

I leave the Casteless hero for my Casteless Warden.

[GoldenGail3]

My Aeducan was a jerkoff tbh. I liked playing with those snooty lines in the beginning... where you make Gorim talk to people for you. It's terrible, but funny. That's my worst character of the bunch.
 
This way Bhelen is kind of unique for his family.
 
I leave the Casteless hero for my Casteless Warden.

Meh - she's a bit of a cliche who dies at the end, anyhow.

[sjsharp2011]

think it depens on the type of character you are RP'ing when I played Dwarven Noble I voted against Behlen because my character felt he was too manipulative to hold such a positoin and was only trying to grab poewr for his own selfish reasons. Most of my outsider charactres however backed Behlen as they felthe'd make a useful trade partner and having a mo0er open relationship between the surface and Orzammar seemed a good idea as well.

[Paragon Aeducan]

I think a lot has to come from self-observation. Harrowmont is a traditionalist, Bhelen is an extremist. One wants to keep the way things are, the other wants to change things.

 

When you look around the city you obviously notice the state of dust town and the casteless, who are forced to be criminals to make it. Should that not be changed? Let's not keep a system that hurts itself from the inside. Bhelen is many things, but he looks to actually change things, where as Harrowmont just wants to please the nobles.

 

Let's not forget that it was the stubbornness of the nobles which lead to the fall of the dwarven kingdom during the first blight. It just so happens that a man by the name of Aeducan took control, overlooked the nobles and saved Orzammar from complete annihilation. This situation is very much familiar. Bhelen is of course not the same man, but he is just be what Orzammar needs to progress. 

[ThomasBlaine]

I always pick him because Bhelen is incredibly vocal about supporting the Grey Wardens and sending troops to fight the darkspawn. Which is exactly what you're after.

 

Facilitating social development in Orzammar isn't a priority for most of my wardens, although the casteless issue might resonate some with city elf characters. You're there for one reason and one reason only: to secure allies against the Blight, not meddle in dwarven politics by cherry-picking the king you like best with your limited-to-nonexistent understanding of their history and culture.

[sniper_arrow]

Meh - she's a bit of a cliche who dies at the end, anyhow.

 

Cliche as compared to Cousland?