1933 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

I'm curious, which ones?

I'd rather not get into specifics, but suffice it to say that some people are reading far far too much into a scene and are making claims about one character that are, in my opinion, unsubstantiated and just plain dumb.

[Han Shot First]

Both the ME & DA general forums are boring now.

 

It's been too long without any substantial information on an upcoming game.

[Biotic Apostate]

I'd rather not get into specifics, but suffice it to say that some people are reading far far too much into a scene and are making claims about one character that are, in my opinion, unsubstantiated and just plain dumb.

I actually know what you're talking about, and I agree, it's overinterpretation based on some small comments.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So a person posting hate speech and racist comments is allowed to with impunity, but saying such things are racist results in being reprimanded. That's some system, Bioware. 

[Jorji Costava]

I'm finally genuinely sick of the general forum to the point of severe boredom with it. I mean, I've been sick of it before, but usually that's just, "Oh, this place is so terrible sometimes.--type, type, type."

 

Now, it's just, "ugh, this place."

 

I know the feeling; it's just getting increasingly dreary around the main forums. I feel like I've long since run out of stuff to say about anything Bioware-related, and am mostly just posting every so often so the people I know around here don't forget that I exist. 

 

So a person posting hate speech and racist comments is allowed to with impunity, but saying such things are racist results in being reprimanded. That's some system, Bioware. 

 

But haven't you figured out that criticizing stuff people say automatically equals infringing on their free speech? This is because, as anyone familiar with Constitutional law knows, free speech is strictly on a first-come, first-serve basis.

[Sifr]

So a person posting hate speech and racist comments is allowed to with impunity, but saying such things are racist results in being reprimanded. That's some system, Bioware. 

 

Spoiler

I have to admit, things like this do make me sometimes fail to understand why American's think the Brits (and most of Europe) are a tad draconian for having our Free Speech card being treated as a privilege, not an automatic right.

 

I mean, everyone can have a driving license, but if you get drunk, wrap your car around a tree and hurl various streams of abuse at it, it's not unreasonable for the cops to show up, pull your license and give you a temporary time out.

 

The last time Europe let people go nuts with free speech, it didn't necessarily end well...

 

(Apologies if this at all sounded political as that wasn't my intention... just explaining why I agree that since the boards are supposed to be a welcoming place for everyone, allowing hate-speech to run amok seems a tad anathema to the atmosphere we are supposed to have here)

 

Edit: Decided in retrospect to put this under a tag, as I worry I was a little too irreverent.

[nightscrawl]

^ I debated for quite a bit whether to respond, even after I wrote this post. I am not offended by your remarks, but only seek to clarify. You can feel free to ignore, but I wanted to make the statement.

 

Spoiler

Many people, even other Americans, seem to think that "freedom of speech" gives one the right to say whatever they want, wherever they want, but that is not so. There is the old adage, "Freedom of speech doesn't give you the right to yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theater." The whole point is that the government cannot police thought or opinion, and it is especially important when it comes to leveling (sometimes necessary and important) criticism at the government itself, which also goes along with freedom of the press.
 
That said, nothing is cut and dried, and there are occasionally legal cases that crop up where some of that freedom is tested. How much responsibility does a person have if their free speech endangers someone (like inciting hate speech)? How can you prove that a person has the intention to incite violence or chaos as a result of their speech? Does the person have the means of carrying out such threats, or are they empty? What is the responsibility of the listener in thinking for themselves and disregarding that speech? Does the government have the right to protect its citizens from things they deem obscene? These are the kinds of questions that are answered by the legal system, and sometimes the Supreme Court.

 

It's not simple, and there IS a process for dealing with such issues. Just reading the overview of the case involving the utterly reprehensible Westboro Baptist Church -- which nobody likes, not even most right-wingers -- shows how complicated it is. Freedom of speech means you get to picket these people right back if you want to. That's why it works.

 
None of this has anything to do with how a private forum is run, and yes, I do agree that Bioware mods have inequitable moderation practices. However, it probably comes down to the fact that there simply aren't enough of them, and also that people are either too slow, OR too hasty, in using the report feature.

[Grieving Natashina]

Big BSN rant incoming. I'll put it into spoiler tags to save on space. I've just had enough.

Spoiler

I'm so sick and tired of this SJW crap. Most of the people here in the RDF have been called as such at one point or another.

For a bunch of posters that hates to be stereotyped for what they believe and who they are, particular posters love to throw that around. It's like feminists are the boogieman. Say "feminist" three times and Anita will show up to your house to forcibly remove your manhood. It really reminds me of the ultra paranoid types that think the government is using the webcam in the Xbox to spy on them.

You know, I have spoken out against things like stupid "sexy" poses. However, it's because I think that it looks utterly idiotic. I also think that the "chest puffed out" look for male characters in box art is stupid. I do prefer more practical armor for my characters, although the suits from ME1 would be okay. I would like to see women of different builds rather than 36/24/36 with C cups in BW games aside from Merrill, or some more people aren't white. It's not because it offends me, it's more because I'd rather see more types of people in general in games. Variety is the spice of life after all.

That and I'm completely sodding bored with the norm for character features. I don't think anyone is bad or wrong for liking those things, but it is something that I wouldn't mind changing. The norm isn't bad and I want some of those more typical features. I want to see some different minorities mixed in with the rest. It also isn't just all about LGBT+ characters. Funny how that is largely forgotten about.

Yet, for some posters, it's all about having "SJWs" taking something away. Heaven freaking forbid that some of this "SJW" stuff is about things looking less stupid and not about trying to bash on anyone. Nor is anyone trying to take anything away or make some guys like they are lesser for being the majority. Of course it can't be as simple as wanting to see more (gasp) representation of minorites. But nope, it's all about the "anti-SJWs" and how they are under attack.

Talk about self centered. Some of these posters think the entire universe is all about them and their feelings one way or the other. Over the last year, since gamergate blew up, some people can't stfu about "SJWs." I've seen more posts that discuss SJWs being a problem than anyone really fitting into that mold. I've seen accusations of hatred by "all feminsts" of the majority...while those doing the accusing are being just as hateful and bigoted as the group they claim to despise.

Certain posters seem to be almost excited to bring it up, then complain that the thread they were posting in got closed for being off topic. Naturally, it'll be the feminists/"SJWs" that reported the thread because they were hurt, not because they were sick of seeing the same bullshit for over a year.

I still feel the same as I did when I posted in the Lady Inquistor ad request thread from a couple of years ago. However, I'm a lot more cautious. I don't want another crazy stalker around my profile, and I sure don't need the harassment. Still, if someone wants to dedicate that much hate towards an entire group that has some real divisions, they should at least do some damn research.

[Lady Artifice]

anything specific this time

 

No, not really. It's just seeing the same arguments, oppression Olympics, and petty personal bickering again and again has finally gotten to be more than I'm interested in.

 

I still love this group, but motivation to go anywhere else is basically nil.

[Sifr]

Tagging in response to nightscrawl because yeah, it's uncomfortable to discuss and I'd rather keep it brief lest we break any rules or irk the forum gods.

 

Spoiler

I was aware that the First Amendment of the US Constitution is often mistaken to apply to everything, when it only applies to government censorship. It makes sense that an employer should be allowed to able to fire someone who works for them if they use hateful language to customers or fellow employees.

 

Most Europeans value free speech as much as Americans do and completely agree that government censorship is something to be avoided, lest it be abused to Orwellian extremes.

 

However the reason I think why in practice, Europe is more willing to pull the reins when individuals or groups incite hatred or violence is because we think it's better to err on the side of caution, lest history repeat and we find out what we thought was idle bluster and hot air was actually far worse than anyone could ever have imagined.

 

Ignoring the above tangent, since it doesn't really apply to how this forum operates...

 

I don't blame the mods because it's not an easy job and it's obvious we don't have enough to them to adequately cover the entire forum. It makes me wonder if that might have been another reason that the OT section was shut down since I can see it being a timesink and a pain to slog through as a mod.

 

But in regards to how they operate, they must realise as well that a lack of consistency does mean some people are being punished for minor infractions like accidentally jaywalking, while the naked guy next to them carrying a stolen plasma screen is being completely ignored. It's not unreasonable that people might be put out by this.

[Grieving Natashina]

Yeah, consistency is a problem. I got popped for "circumventing the profanity filter" by typing the F-bomb with only the vowel being censored, but I see the word getting thrown around uncensored all over the place. The first version of this thread got closed to "naming and shaming posters," yet it's perfectly okay for posters to do it left and right. I'm not innocent, since I've done my share of the same in public threads. That didn't make it okay just because I did it, and that doesn't make it okay for others to do it.

"Hate speech" isn't allowed, but using the slur "trap" and calling someone transgender by the gender of their body is perfectly fine. I guess that slurs aren't allowed if someone knows what they mean.

Sorry for the rants, I'm just not in a great mood. I'm very nervous about what the vet is going to say tomorrow and I've run fresh out of patience. There is a reason why I'm in here and not posting this in the main forums.

Edit: I've been really missing Allan here as of late. The forums could use his cool head and sense of perspective.

[nightscrawl]

"Hate speech" isn't allowed, but using the word "trap" and calling someone transgender by the gender of their body is perfectly fine. I guess that slurs aren't allowed if someone knows what they mean.

Um... sorry... can someone explain this one to me?

[nightscrawl]

I have a hard time actually ignoring posts by people that I have on ignore. Like... it's there! Tempting me to read it! All I have to do is click the "show post" link... x_x Then I skim it (to save myself, if possible) and am reminded why I have them on ignore in the first place. It's a shame we can't hide them completely.

[Grieving Natashina]

Um... sorry... can someone explain this one to me?

A trap in this case is a slur for a transgendered person. Basically, they are "trapping" someone by "pretending" to be one gender but having the biological makeup of another. It literally makes me feel ill that some people feel that way. I've seen that and worse lately.

[nightscrawl]

Oh... new one for me. Thanks for the info.

[HuldraDancer]

Ugh reminds me of a conversation I had with one of my nicer uncles I've been trying to forget about, transsexuals wanting to use the bathroom that goes with their gender. Maybe I'm just sh*t at debates but it felt like he kept moving the goal posts and kept saying crap that contradicted what he had said before like 'children have a right to not be in the bathroom with the opposite sex' then minutes later 'children have no rights' or something like that. Weird thing was too this didn't spark up until the mention of me not being too religious somehow got brought up. Guess my mother's side of the family got big on religion when I wasn't looking. Though I could be drawing lines from nothing and that was just something they wanted to talk about.

[Steelcan]

Edit: I've been really missing Allan here as of late. The forums could use his cool head and sense of perspective.

No, this site needs real moderators, not people like Allan, for all of his levelheadedness he certainly had his own problems.

[Han Shot First]

No, this site needs real moderators, not people like Allan, for all of his levelheadedness he certainly had his own problems.

 

I sort of agree.

 

It was cool that he interacted with fans, but I don't think he was always fair or levelheaded as a moderator.

 

The numbered BioBots, for all their flaws, are a little more fair. Sometime shitposts and ToS violations fly under the radar while similar posts in another thread get hammered, but that's mostly because moderation on the forums in the BioBot era is primarily complaint driven. It all depends on what people decide to report. 

[nightscrawl]

^ Aw I liked your pre-edit post more .
 
Where the hell did this "SJW" thing -- that is, using it as a slur -- come from anyway? Was it just a result of Gamer Gate and all those... persons?
 
What I find amusing about that in relation to Bioware, Dragon Age specifically, and also EA by proxy (David Gaider has said that without EA's support these things wouldn't be done), is that they have pretty much owned up to being proud of their inclusiveness, recognize some remaining failings, and want to do even better in the future. This is Bioware's attitude as a company, has been for years, and is not going anywhere.
 
Really, it seems like these anti-SJW people are desperately trying to hold onto relevance in a changing world, which is ironic since this specific entertainment medium is always on the cusp of change, development, and growth, only now it's not limited to just technology and shiny graphics, but to the growth of people as well.

 

The numbered BioBots, for all their flaws, are a little more fair. Sometime shitposts and ToS violations fly under the radar while similar posts in another thread get hammered, but that's mostly because moderation on the forums in the BioBot era is primarily complaint driven. It all depends on what people decide to report.

Yes, this is a problem. I've only reported one post or user myself, and that was because it was so egregious that it had to just be gone, and it was later that day. (I really don't remember what it was, I've thankfully wiped it from my memory.) However, I often find it difficult to justify reporting someone, particularly if they are very adept at trolling. I usually can't tell unless the trolling is quite absurd, primarily because I know that there are some people that really do think in whatever terrible way.

[Han Shot First]

^ Aw I liked your pre-edit post more .
 
Where the hell did this "SJW" thing -- that is, using it as a slur -- come from anyway? Was it just a result of Gamer Gate and all those... persons?
 
 

 

The first time I heard (or rather, read) the SJW thing was in posts related to Gamer Gate. I didn't even know what the acronym meant at first. I don't know if it existed before Gamer Gate, but if so I think GG did a lot to popularize it's use, at least on gaming forums.

 

It's really just the modern equivalent of the old Bleeding Heart Liberal.  Like the use of Bleeding Heart Liberal in the 80s or 90s, the label is also mostly just used as pejorative for anyone perceived as being to the left ideologically on any social issue from the person using it, regardless of whether the person actually fits the stereotypes associated with the term or is as far left politically as the label implies. 

 

It's mostly used as an ad hominem to shut down debate by characterizing a person as having an identical position or ideology as the most extreme or fanatical supporters of whatever ism the person throwing labels around is railing against.

 

Let's say I make a post in support of equal pay for equal work, and someone who doesn't like that post, characterizes me as a SJW. By doing so they're lumping me in with the crazies who are obsessed with trigger warnings and safe spaces, who think a guy saying hello to a woman on the street has committed a sexual assault, or who retweets #KillAllMen, because that's the stereotype associated with the SJW label.

 

Maybe it's just the internet and people cranking up the hyperbole, but a lot of the ranting about SJWs being a problem on this site seemed really paranoid. With maybe one or two exceptions I haven't really rarely run across anyone who checks all the boxes for the SJW stereotype outside of links posted to random crazies on other sites like Tumblr, Twitter, or Youtube, and those links were posted by people ranting against SJWs here. I'd probably have never heard of Anita Sarkeesian, Gamer Gate's favorite pinata, if not for her links to her videos being repeatedly spammed by people who hate her. 

 

As a moderate I thought the extreme voices on both ends of that mess needed to take a long hike off the same short pier. Fanatics and ideologues suck, whether left or right. 

[SardaukarElite]

Know Your Meme dates Social Justice Warrior to 2009. 

 

An important part of the idea that seems to have been lost lately is that the person is motivated by appearing cool, rather than actual social justice, so it's a bit like the fake gamer girl thing.

 

Once you label someone you can dismiss their arguments without engaging with them. You've already dealt with that. Cheap, but sometimes it saves you a lot of time. 

[Sifr]

Yeah, as others have pointed out above the definitions of what constitutes a SJW (or what makes someone a Hipster as well) can be so nebulous it can include everyone and their mums if you wanted it to, since the intent of the accuser was always meant to dismiss their opponent as someone to be mocked.

 

What bothers me when you hear SJW accusations... is that I seriously doubt a character like Mae would have received half the grief she has gotten from certain quarters, if Bioware had never decided to tell us that she happened to be a trans character?

 

If we never had found out she was trans, people would probably just have forgotten about her as the friend of Dorian from the war table and the widow of Varric's cousin we met in the comics. Instead, people seem to want to make it an issue when it really isn't.

 

It'd be like turning around and saying that in Origins, that someone like Irving or Trian were gay.

 

Lets admit it, we probably all forgot about their characters or haven't thought of them in years outside of the respective prologue and/or quests they appeared in back in Origins.

 

But you just know that if the writers announced tomorrow this new bit of information about them, some people would suddenly make a huge deal out of it.

 

[daveliam]

Yeah, as others have pointed out above the definitions of what constitutes a SJW (or what makes someone a Hipster as well) can be so nebulous it can include everyone and their mums if you wanted it to, since the intent of the accuser was always meant to dismiss their opponent as someone to be mocked.

 

This is my biggest issue with the term SJW.  It means almost nothing at this point because people throw it around at even the slightest "left leaning" post.  There are people out there who fit the actual definition of it, but the term's lost its meaning because it's applied to anyone who posts even slightly progressive comments.  It's basically a useless term at this point.

 

I also agree about the moderation on the boards going into the toilet.  There is so much nonsense that is allowed to happen here now because the ModBots fall asleep on the job.  I've reported a few things that are really not cool and they've gone completely unattended.  I check back a day or two later and the posts are still there and the posters are still going on and on with their awful rhetoric.  It's, honestly, ruined the site for me. 

 

Also?  BANS?  Y'all are some badasses.  I'd be mortified I got banned.  I was super embarrassed when I got 2 warning points.  I feel like they are a black mark on my record......

[nightscrawl]

Yeah, as others have pointed out above the definitions of what constitutes a SJW (or what makes someone a Hipster as well) can be so nebulous it can include everyone and their mums if you wanted it to, since the intent of the accuser was always meant to dismiss their opponent as someone to be mocked.
 
What bothers me when you hear SJW accusations... is that I seriously doubt a character like Mae would have received half the grief she has gotten from certain quarters, if Bioware had never decided to tell us that she happened to be a trans character?
 
If we never had found out she was trans, people would probably just have forgotten about her as the friend of Dorian from the war table and the widow of Varric's cousin we met in the comics. Instead, people seem to want to make it an issue when it really isn't.
 
It'd be like turning around and saying that in Origins, that someone like Irving or Trian were gay.
 
Lets admit it, we probably all forgot about their characters or haven't thought of them in years outside of the respective prologue and/or quests they appeared in back in Origins.
 
But you just know that if the writers announced tomorrow this new bit of information about them, some people would suddenly make a huge deal out of it.
 

 
I take your point, but not as it applies to Mae specifically. She was introduced in the comics first and revealed as trans in what I felt to be a very tasteful way (that is, ignoring the trauma of the scene) and no mention of it was specifically made; we only see part of her exposed body, and that's all. That physical reveal, along with the gender specific references and pronouns, make it very clear, and it was always a part of her character as originally conceived. So it's not like Bioware, or David Gaider specifically, came out after the fact and revealed that she was trans, like J.K. Jowling revealing that Dumbledore was gay.

 

It was only revealed because of specific events that happen in the comics, just as we get to see Bianca for the first time with Varric. If Mae is in DA4, they could conceivably not bring it up at all, and depending on how she is physically portrayed -- character design that is, by necessity, different from the comic, and voice -- it might be difficult to tell. I happen to like women that are somewhat androgynous looking, but I still think they are feminine (I don't subscribe to most "traditional" beauty standards). So they could very well present Mae in that way and leave players unfamiliar with her either none-the-wiser or guessing. If there is no plot need to reference it, particularly if she is not a romance option (which would make me sad), then she could just be portrayed as a woman rather than a transwoman.

 

When I say the above, I'm not suggesting that it be hidden, which I realize it comes across as, but rather that it not be treated as significant. What reason would there be to mention it?** On the other hand, I think having those characters out there, even if their difference is not significant to the story, is important. Similarly with Dumbledore, while I thought that the mention was odd, never having thought of him as a sexual being, the default for most people is to think of him as straight, even unconsciously. When JKR comes out and says, "Oh by the way, Dumbledore, that beloved teacher and substitute father figure to Harry, was gay all along," I think that is important. (I wonder how many Dumbledore/McGonagall 50s-era romance fics were trashed because of that... haha.)

 

 

 

** To be honest, the only issue I have with the whole Krem thing is that it is completely contrary to my nature to inquire about such personal issues, to ask such questions, or make such assumptions, and in fact I consider it quite rude. I never ask in that scene, or bring it up later with either Bull or Krem himself. If I were forced to pick a response, I would prefer the surprised, "Wait are you...? I didn't realize..." because that could easily be taken as a foot-in-mouth moment. For similar reasons, I never ask Leliana whether she and the Divine were involved, nor ask the same of Dorian regarding Felix (although the timing of that one is atrocious), and neither do I ask Dorian if he's ever been with a woman (another ill-timed question). None of those things are ANY of my business, and most of them appear at times when it is inappropriate to make such inquiries, either because your relationship (non-romantic) with the person is still beginning, or because of the context of the scene.

 

However, I do realize that such options are about role play, and one could certainly be RPing a socially inept person, a nosy busy-body, or one who just doesn't give a damn, so I have to accept them on those grounds and hope that there is a suitable option for me, or that I can choose to not take them, as I did with all of those in DAI.

 

 

That went off on a bit of a tangent, sorry about that.

[daveliam]

 
I take your point, but not as it applies to Mae specifically. She was introduced in the comics first and revealed as trans in what I felt to be a very tasteful way (that is, ignoring the trauma of the scene) and no mention of it was specifically made; we only see part of her exposed body, and that's all. That physical reveal, along with the gender specific references and pronouns, make it very clear, and it was always a part of her character as originally conceived. So it's not like Bioware, or David Gaider specifically, came out after the fact and revealed that she was trans, like J.K. Jowling revealing that Dumbledore was gay.

 

<snip>

 

This is an interesting point.  It's funny how many posters on BSN have issues with Krem, but always frame it as "I don't dislike his gender.  I just hate how it was done.  He feels like a token and it's forced down my throat.  And blah, blah, blah."

 

Now there are already posters (some of whom are the same as the Krem "haters") who are calling Mae "a token" and how it's "forced" and blah, blah, blah.  Despite the fact that her gender was introduced in the exact way that they claim they want it done.  She was revealed subtly through the plot.  It was never a big deal.  Yet people are still complaining.  Yet another example of hypocrites who won't let Bioware win.  They are damned if they do, damned if they don't.